Jake Virtanen with good corsi

[NexusRift]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Jake scores 20+ this season:)

Here! here!

[189lb enforcers?]

Prospects Talk 

[Sugar baby watermelon]

1 hour ago, Hortankin said:

Oh no not a minus!

 

My life is ruined now

umm ok, whatev

[EastVanCanuck]

13 hours ago, kingofsurrey said:

Virt has always shown himself to very responsible defensively.

His big body and speed is exactly what the Canucks need in their lineup.

 

Really hoping he is on the squad for this upcoming season.

 

I think Virt can easily play on the 4th line and work his way up the roster from there..

Very encouraging to read about his fitness improving and that shows he is putting in the work at the gym / practise and getting serious about being a pro.

Glad to see you are back on your home meds.  Welcome back to this wagon.  

[kingofsurrey]

2 hours ago, EastVanCanuck said:

Glad to see you are back on your home meds.  Welcome back to this wagon.  

I don't understand your post.  Bit early in day to be drinking isn't it ?

[shad0w4life]

14 hours ago, kingofsurrey said:

Thats the thing with Jake though.   Hopefully with his speed , size, and shot  he  will have the NHL game. 

He doesn't have a shot, or else he would be scoring with that corsi #, also how many shots did he have vs linemates.

[kingofsurrey]

11 minutes ago, shad0w4life said:

He doesn't have a shot, or else he would be scoring with that corsi #, also how many shots did he have vs linemates.

Really ?

 

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/jake-virtanen/

 

Talent Analysis

Virtanen is a complete power forward. He shoots the puck hard and is strong along the boards. His key asset is his great acceleration and speed. Virtanen moves well laterally without gearing down. He can be relied upon in all situations and has a heavy physical presence to his game.

 and

 

 

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=120197

 

A formidable adversary for any challenger, Jake Virtanen is an imposing power forward in the truest sense. Possesses a non-stopping motor and creates an abundance of on-ice energy when throwing his weight around and establishing his physical presence. Exhibits world-class skating ability, and can blow by defenders just as easily as he can go through them. Stands up for his teammates and never backs down from a challenge. Displays a wicked, NHL-level release that challenges goaltenders of all skill levels. Becoming a recognizable asset when playing a more defensive role as well. All-in-all, a physical power forward that has the character traits, work ethic, and individual skills to pose a threat to whoever stands in his way. (Curtis Joe, EP 2015) 

[oldnews]

15 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

This past season's 9 NHL games:  http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201617&sit=5v5&type=corsi&teamid=29&pos=skaters&minutes=50&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

 

So last year he was a good AHL player as far as base analytic evaluations go, but not so much when it came to the base NHL analytic evaluation.

 

I'm glad Jake is doing well in the AHL, but that doesn't always translate to the NHL.  The Sabres just picked up a near PPG AHL player for Rochester, but put him in the NHL and he's near useless.

9 game sample is too small to be worthwhile (particularly with 27% ozone starts - his numbers are misleading).

His first year in the NHL - far larger sample - far more relevent.

Virtanen is going to be fine.

I've seen lots of players whose +1 and +2 seasons were misrepresentative - you give up on a guy like Neiderreiter and it comes back to  bite you.

[SabreFan1]

Just now, oldnews said:

9 game sample is too small to be worthwhile (particularly with 27% ozone starts - his numbers are misleading).

His first year in the NHL - far larger sample - far more relevent.

Virtanen is going to be fine.

I've seen lots of players whose +1 and +2 seasons were misrepresentative - you give up on a guy like Neiderreiter and it comes back to  bite you.

I have yet to give up on Virtanen because I think he can become a solid middle 6 player if he can put his game together.  I just want it to translate to the NHL if he can manage to piece it together in the minors.  He turns 21 next month so there's still plenty of time.  The problem for Virtanen's future with the Canucks is that JB is restocking the cupboards with quality prospects and as that happens, over time Jake will lose playing time to the newer shinier toys.  I want Jake to do well in Vancouver within the next 1 or 2 years, not somewhere else after 3 or 4.

[bloodycanuckleheads]

Go look up our corsi numbers!  Even though we were one of the worst teams in the league, we had decent corsi numbers (and other fancy stats).  Not great, by any means, but nowhere near as bad as you'd expect.

That's because stats like corsi are highly misleading.  In the NHL, once a team has a lead, they tend to sit on it.  The coaches slow the game down and start playing defense.  So, if you take a terrible team like the Canucks - who are usually behind just minutes into each game - that means that the other team is only playing for 5 minutes and coasting for 55.  So, you have 5 minutes of a-lot-of-shots, followed by 55 minutes of almost-no-shots.  While, at the same time, the losing team (us) is firing-away like mad.  So, of course, the terrible team is going to have phenomenal shot-stats.  The other team isn't even trying to score.

So, if you look at the corsi, you'd think we were a decent team - but, in reality, it just means we were getting our asses handed to us all the time (typically really early in each game).

[oldnews]

12 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

I have yet to give up on Virtanen because I think he can become a solid middle 6 player if he can put his game together.  I just want it to translate to the NHL if he can manage to piece it together in the minors.  He turns 21 next month so there's still plenty of time.  The problem for Virtanen's future with the Canucks is that JB is restocking the cupboards with quality prospects and as that happens, over time Jake will lose playing time to the newer shinier toys.  I want Jake to do well in Vancouver within the next 1 or 2 years, not somewhere else after 3 or 4.

I think people in general haven't really seen what he brings - and focus on stat-gazing - which is why I think he'll surprise those people.  I personally won't be surprised if, despite the competition, he's in the lineup on a regular basis at some point this coming season.  I don't think you're going to have to wait 3 or 4 years - there are good prospects in the cupboards and a lot of competition, but Virtanen has a rare skillset - a rare combination of speed, size and shot.  What he's been going through is actually quite common for players like him.

[Fanuck]

17 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

 The problem for Virtanen's future with the Canucks is that JB is restocking the cupboards with quality prospects and as that happens, over time Jake will lose playing time to the newer shinier toys. 

Presently,  there's not a single prospect in the organization that has the combination of skill-set, size,  and on-ice attitude that JV has.   This is why he'll be on the roster sooner rather than later imo.   All he has to do is get his mental-game to the pro caliber level - that's what his time in Utica was for - if it takes him part of this year to keep figuring that out,  fine by me. 

[oldnews]

18 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

Presently,  there's not a single prospect in the organization that has the combination of skill-set, size,  and on-ice attitude that JV has.   This is why he'll be on the roster sooner rather than later imo.   All he has to do is get his mental-game to the pro caliber level - that's what his time in Utica was for - if it takes him part of this year to keep figuring that out,  fine by me. 

I agree - Virtanen is an important player that is being somewhat forgotten in the rush of young talent into the organization - and that may actually help him in two ways - one, take some pressure off to be an impact player too soon, and two, to push him to prove himself relative to the internal competition.

 

It's funny that we now hear so many complaints about rushing Virtanen into the NHL - but if anyone recalls the temper in the city to start his rookie season (or goes back and reads the threads from those times) - the fanbase was livid and literally rabid that these yound guys be in the lineup and cutting their teeth at the NHL level.  Now there are countless hindsight superstars that knew better lol - but what were they saying at the time?

 

Instead of remaking the following points again, I'm just going to quote some references to his underlying numbers, his deployment, grit statistics and awareness/anticipation without puck (and turnover differential)....

 

On 2016-11-29 at 11:31 AM, oldnews said:

 

Jake has shown a number of things:

1) Speed and intent to get in on the forecheck

2) When he gets there he hits hard and separates people from the puck

3) He's able to blow by NHL D on the rush - a rare quality for a player of his size/grit/youth.

4) He has good defensive anticipation and poise with the puck - his takeaways have been very impressive, as is the fact he has a +11 turnover differential as a young pwf at 19/20yrs of age.

5) 145 hits in 65 NHL games playing 10/11 minutes a night.

 

My biggest concern around Virtanen is the multiple shoulder injuries.

 

On 2016-12-01 at 2:09 PM, oldnews said:

 

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?f1=2015_s&f2=5v5&f5=VAN&f7=5-&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67

 

That is a 19 yr old - with the best corsi on the team last year.   In addition, his ozone starts are middling (with ozone finishes actually a touch higher than starts) - as well as middling quality of competition.

Add to the context that he was playing on a depleted lineup with a whole bunch of other youth and tweeners stepping up - as a teenaged rookie pwf.   That is anything but sheltered minutes for a teenager.   Credit where credit is due.

 

And as I've pointed out before, the young guy has 26 takeaways in 65 games (and a +11 turnover differential) playing 11 minutes a game.

Not sure how many people realize what kind of numbers those actually are - particularly for a teenaged pwf.   It's a small sample, but it puts him in a class with some very good veteran two way players / puck hounds.

135 hits aren't inconsequential either - and his ability to separate the puck from the opponent in those situations would be another interesting statistic that don't show up in his takeaways.

 

Whether or not, or how healthy he is (I have my doubts) Virtanen stumbled in 10 games early this year.  Too much is being made of it.

 

 

 

[Adarsh Sant]

Haven't been on CDC in a while and the first two threads I see are 

 

"Jake Virtanen's corsi" and "Do we need Rasmus Dahlin?" both by @Hortankin

 

I know it's summer, but really dude? 

 

 

[canuckmen84]

I think it just shows Jake is progressing at the pase he needs to, the scoreing will come . 

 

One more year in the Utica and i think

 we will have a confidant, NHL ready special player !

[Goal:thecup]

56 minutes ago, Adarsh Sant said:

Haven't been on CDC in a while and the first two threads I see are 

 

"Jake Virtanen's corsi" and "Do we need Rasmus Dahlin?" both by @Hortankin

 

I know it's summer, but really dude? 

 

 

 

How many threads can a Hortankin make, when a Hortankin does make threads?

Way too many, imo.

 

That praise Calgary one even had Deb (mod) and Kaner (mini-mod)(Patsy Kane fan) chiming in!

I thought they were gonna wrap it into the appropriate thread, but Nooooo, Hortankin has been "Approved".

 

It's ridiculous.

He's made about 5 new threads since.

 

Uhmmm, Jake; yeah, content: Jake is good (Hortankin, not so much).

[kanucks25]

It's a nice sign but if it doesn't translate into traditional stats (G, A, P) it doesn't mean much. This past season, Gaunce put up decent advanced stats despite less-than-ideal deployment, but he also had 0 goals in 57 games.

 

Virtanen could end up like a Benoit Pouliot type player: ton of natural talent, puts up good advanced stats but always leaves you wanting more and has a tendency of showing his low IQ. This has resulted in Pouliot wearing out his welcome quite quickly in a lot of places. 

[alfstonker]

17 hours ago, Tre Mac said:

But is he hitting?  That's what concerns me.  When I saw him play Arizona 2 years ago he levelled Murphy(forgot his first name) and when Murphy stumbled to the bench I saw Shane Doan tell four or five teammates "Watch out for that kid".  Last year however for whatever reason(injuries, management?) he stopped hitting.  If he uses that physicality along with his speed he could be at the very least a well serviceable bottom six player.  If he can hone those skills with a more effective shot off the off-wing he could be the player we all hoped he'll be, a top 6 beast.  I wish him all the luck in the world and I hope he succeeds.   

Part of the problem imo was he looked gassed just from getting over the boards. You need fitness to make hits, if you are not in condition it impairs your judgement. Jake spent much of his time just catching his breath and trying to get in position.

Hopefully he has learned that being in game condition is the minimal requirement for a pro hockey player.

[Burnt Gravy]

On 2017-07-12 at 3:34 AM, oldnews said:

Well, if you want to be good at hockey, outshooting your opponent on a consistent basis is a good start.  It's not the be and and end all, but all things being equal, over large samples it tends to be a pretty good indicator of success.
 

Observation: These numbers are encouraging for Jake Virtanen, yet when it comes to Sutter and Gudbranson they are meaningless and emphatically discredited.

[Junkyard Dog]

Needs to use his physical traits to his advantage.

 

He could become a more relentless forechecker than Hansen, he has all the tools.

 

I am hoping for a better more physical version of Hansen with a bit more of a scoring touch.

 

3 minutes ago, Burnt Gravy said:

Observation: These numbers are encouraging for Jake Virtanen, yet when it comes to Sutter and Gudbranson they are meaningless and emphatically discredited.

There's a lot to consider when it comes to corsi, particularly how the player was deployed and in what zones.

 

I won't comment on Gudbranson because he played 30 games which I don't believe are good facts to go by under the circumstances. IDK how Virtanen was utilized in the AHL.

 

Sutter was deployed mainly in a defensive role.  With players that played over 50 games he was 2nd in most Dzone starts amongst all players, only behind Gaunce. Sutter was also used on the PK more than any other forward.

 

IMO Sutter was utilized the way he should be last season. High Dzone starts, main PK guy, etc. it frees up Horvat to have more Ozone starts or at least near 50/50.

 

Subsequently Gaunce had the most dzone starts on average and had the 2nd best corsi for players that played over 50 games. Hopefully he can find his scoring touch, he could be a solid checking forward moving for us.