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Canadian Clay

[Proposal] Brandon Sutter for Ryan Nugent-Hopkins

119 posts in this topic

With McDavid and Draisital as Edmonton's 1, 2 punch at centre, and the fact that RNH has a 6 milllion dollar cap hit, it would make sense that the Oilers would look to ship him out and replace him with a more appropriate 3rd line centre. Enter Brandon Sutter. Sutter is a good face off man who can kill penalty's and move up the line up in a pinch. If the Canucks retain 500 k of Sutters salary, then the Oilers can trim over 2 million off their cap while  upgrading the checking abilities of their 3rd line, and the Canucks get a 24 year old, 40-50 point per season, two-way centre.

 

Thoughts?

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Great idea but my only concern is that we won't have a right handed center remaining other than Megna

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I would argue Nugent-Hopkins is a better 2-way center than sutter, PK aside.

 

So saying that, the value is really far off with your reasoning. Add in that he is a much better player offensively, and he is younger. 

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7 minutes ago, Hsh said:

Great idea but my only concern is that we won't have a right handed center remaining other than Megna

haha ya thats the problem for us when being a rebuilding team lol

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2 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

I would argue Nugent-Hopkins is a better 2-way center than sutter, PK aside.

 

So saying that, the value is really far off with your reasoning. Add in that he is a much better player offensively, and he is younger. 

Yeah I was kinda thinking the cap dump would be enough to get the oilers to go for it. They already have two huge contracts in mcdavid and Lucic, plus what ever draisital and talbot will get. 

 

I figured this this is a good way to save some money without downgrading to much. Maybe the Canucks would need to add another piece? 

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2 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

haha ya thats the problem for us when being a rebuilding team lol

But still it's better to have a mix of righty's and left's this trade causes the canucks to only be left with 3 righty's and 9 lefty's. However if we sign another free agent righty than this trade is awesome

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They literally just traded for a 3C in Ryan Strome.

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1 minute ago, Canadian Clay said:

Yeah I was kinda thinking the cap dump would be enough to get the oilers to go for it. They already have two huge contracts in mcdavid and Lucic, plus what ever draisital and talbot will get. 

 

I figured this this is a good way to save some money without downgrading to much. Maybe the Canucks would need to add another piece? 

I just don't think edmonton would purposely lose value for cap space. 

 

If they need to rid themselves of the contract, there are quite a few options that would be more realistic. IE. Kadri, Brassard, Anisimov, Schenn or hell even Horvat.

 

All those could be possible 1 for 1 trades, that would be closer in value than Nugent-Hopkins and Sutter. All have lower cap hits than Nuge too. 

 

If I was Edmonton, and Van Offered Nuge for Sutter, I would counter with Horvat, and not go any less. Better options around the league, than Sutter. 

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16 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

I would argue Nugent-Hopkins is a better 2-way center than sutter, PK aside.

 

So saying that, the value is really far off with your reasoning. Add in that he is a much better player offensively, and he is younger. 

What argument would you have for that? For starters:

 

Nugent-Hopkins: 43.8 FO% / 4.8 faceoffs per game in the defensive zone last season
Sutter: 54.3 FO% / 7.3 faceoffs per game in the defensive zone last season

 

IMO, those stats alone already show you that Sutter is much superior in a checking role. If you are going to argue that the Nuge is a better 2-way player, you'd have to include PK duties as a part of that. That's like arguing who's the better offensive player without the goals. You can argue corsi numbers in favour of the Nuge, but he played for a much better team. Also Hopkins is fragile as last season was the first he's ever played all 82 games, since he entered the league in 2011. I'd pass on this deal, especially after we acquired Gagner. 

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Posted (edited)

Not a chance Edmonton does this.

Not only can they can get a better return, they wouldn't want Hopkins in Vancouver.

Edited by rawkdrummer
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IF we didn't just draft a lite pure playmaking center I would say sure lets do it, but RNH because useless as soon as pettersson arrives.

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Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, pluralsight said:

What argument would you have for that? For starters:

 

Nugent-Hopkins: 43.8 FO% / 4.8 faceoffs per game in the defensive zone last season
Sutter: 54.3 FO% / 7.3 faceoffs per game in the defensive zone last season

 

IMO, those stats alone already show you that Sutter is much superior in a checking role. If you are going to argue that the Nuge is a better 2-way player, you'd have to include PK duties as a part of that. That's like arguing who's the better offensive player without the goals. You can argue corsi numbers in favour of the Nuge, but he played for a much better team. Also Hopkins is fragile as last season was the first he's ever played all 82 games, since he entered the league in 2011. I'd pass on this deal, especially after we acquired Gagner. 

Well for one, Corsi is particularly  in favour of Nugent-Hopkins because his shot generation is much higher, while his shot suppression is relatively equal to Sutter's. You need to take into account both offense and defence for a 2-way player. 

 

Second, Nugent-Hopkins spent more time on the ice per 60, and also had a higher DZ start% than Sutter... meaning he generated more offence while taking up more ice time, all the while losing the faceoff in the defensive zone. 

 

Third, even while having an horrendous PK faceoff%(30%), Nuge's PK shot suppression, his on time on ice and goals allowed per 60 were better than Sutter's.

 

And if you are going to argue that Nuge was on a better team so his stats are better because of that, then there is zero points of using advanced stats to make an argument here.

 

And My eye test says Nuge is better defensively and offensively. 

 

Insanity, that you would not do this trade, as Vancouver. 

Edited by Art Vandelay
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Man, people REALLY hate Sutter here.

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3 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

Well for one, Corsi is particularly  in favour of Nugent-Hopkins because his shot generation is much higher, while his shot suppression is relatively equal to Sutter's. You need to take into account both offense and defence for a 2-way player. 

 

Second, Nugent-Hopkins spent more time on the ice per 60, and also had a higher DZ start% than Sutter... meaning he generated more offence while taking up more ice time, all the while losing the faceoff in the defensive zone. 

 

Third, even while having an horrendous PK faceoff%(30%) on the PK, Nuge's PK shot suppression, his on time on ice and goals allowed per 60 were better than Sutter's.

 

And if you are going to argue that Nuge was on a better team so his stats are better because of that, then there is zero points of using advanced stats to make an argument here.

 

And My eye test says Nuge is better defensively and offensively. 

 

Insanity, that you would not do this trade, as Vancouver. 

Fair argument there, however I did not use advanced stats at all to back up my argument simply because Sutter played for a basement dweller that could not score a goal or generate offense if their life depended on it. Your eye test is subjective just as mine is. Also I argue that Hopkins is not a fit for this team, he is simply redundant strongly on the fact that he's a left handed center and Sutter is more of an asset as a right shot. 

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2 minutes ago, pluralsight said:

Fair argument there, however I did not use advanced stats at all to back up my argument simply because Sutter played for a basement dweller that could not score a goal or generate offense if their life depended on it. Your eye test is subjective just as mine is. Also I argue that Hopkins is not a fit for this team, he is simply redundant strongly on the fact that he's a left handed center and Sutter is more of an asset as a right shot. 

I agree that Nuge doesn't fit for Canucks. I think Canucks are set with Pettersson, Gaudette and Horvat.

 

If Sutter is traded, I'd want a defensemen in return. 

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1 hour ago, Canadian Clay said:

With McDavid and Draisital as Edmonton's 1, 2 punch at centre, and the fact that RNH has a 6 milllion dollar cap hit, it would make sense that the Oilers would look to ship him out and replace him with a more appropriate 3rd line centre. Enter Brandon Sutter. Sutter is a good face off man who can kill penalty's and move up the line up in a pinch. If the Canucks retain 500 k of Sutters salary, then the Oilers can trim over 2 million off their cap while  upgrading the checking abilities of their 3rd line, and the Canucks get a 24 year old, 40-50 point per season, two-way centre.

 

Thoughts?

First thought is with Lucic contract too, RNH contract is a must move almost.

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10 minutes ago, Rounoush said:

Man, people REALLY hate Sutter here.

So much so, many wanted to give him away for nothing to Las Vegas.  Makes one wonder if they actually watch and understand what he does and what his role is.

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You would have to add a significant amount to get RNH for Sutter

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Sutter gives them a lot of grit that they really need, but he's IMO one of the most under-appreciated Canucks. Kills penalties, takes good faceoffs, plays well defensively, can play with a chippy edge, and still young. 

 

We'd be much better off keeping him as a veteran for the kids. We need to think how this team will look in the future, and as good as Gaudette might become, I'd much rather keep Sutter as our veteran presence, leader and 3rd line center. He's played in the playoffs on good teams, he's got a lot of experience and can really teach the kids coming in how to play with poise and play well defensively. We'll loose the Sedins soon and all of a sudden not have any veteran leaders on this team.

 

Sutter, Gudbranson and Tanav are really the overlapping veteran leaders this team needs to keep around if they want the kids coming in to have any success.

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