[Proposal] Brandon Sutter for Ryan Nugent-Hopkins

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Mostly because we'd want to nab a younger, more highly skilled RNH. I'd see this as landing RNH & Gud from what was Kesler(of course many other ingreds were tossed in).

 

I think Nuge is a worthwhile gamble with where we're at. By the time his deal is up, Petterson is 22, & prob ready to roll. If Nuge is mediocre, we can then easily move on. He might be a 60~65 pt C, simply stuck behind other stars.

 

As for Hutton, seems a good kid, no doubt. We need more grit/size/heavy slappers back there, & I'll bet OJ & Brise can go on to fill the role just as well. I'd be fine giving Pedan/McEneny/Holm time to show us, early on. Again, we don't expect much this yr anyhow. Sekeras would LTIR 'til almost deadline. Next season we can absorb this extra cap with ease.

RNH is more highly skilled in the sense of being a pure shooter, but he's simply not a good shut down C. He's really bad on face-offs as well. We'd be forcing more defensive responsibilities on Bo, so I just don't see how it washes out to be anything better for us, and we're stuck with that salary. 

 

Plus I don't like the idea of moving Hutton for an older injured D, not sure what that does for us. 

 

The only deal that makes sense to me is Loui for RNH. Despite the crap Loui takes on CDC he is a very good player and would be a great fit with Draisaitl. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

14 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

Do you really see RNH taking Pacioretty's spot? Or Chucky? 

Max doesn't play center. At least he's not a natural center. And chucky got moved to the wing last year because the coach didn't believe he was a true center.

 

theres a reason mtl was rumored in with duchene. It's because they need a legit center. 

 

Not saying RNH is the answer but mtl is for from being content down the middle 

[Nuxfanabroad]

1 minute ago, S'all Good Man said:

RNH is more highly skilled in the sense of being a pure shooter, but he's simply not a good shut down C. He's really bad on face-offs as well. We'd be forcing more defensive responsibilities on Bo, so I just don't see how it washes out to be anything better for us, and we're stuck with that salary. 

 

Plus I don't like the idea of moving Hutton for an older injured D, not sure what that does for us. 

 

The only deal that makes sense to me is Loui for RNH. Despite the crap Loui takes on CDC he is a very good player and would be a great fit with Draisaitl. 

Hear what you're sayin, but the Oil's pov is all about cap space.

 

I've seen some pretty nice offers sent from eastern teams(HFBoard diehards) directed to Edm for Nuge. After sending Hall & Ebs out east, prob that pattern continues.

Fans out there see him as a former #1 OA, who put up decent pts early-on. If he has stalled, GM's out there will still likely gamble.

Mtl

Ott

Canes

Fish sticks

These clubs seem interested.

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Max doesn't play center. At least he's not a natural center. And chucky got moved to the wing last year because the coach didn't believe he was a true center.

 

theres a reason mtl was rumored in with duchene. It's because they need a legit center. 

Duchene makes so much more sense for MTL. RNH has the same issues their current C group has, he's just not that good at every important aspect of being a C. But Duchene is, and he was over 62% on face-offs last year, and is a smarter player than the 'nuge. 

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Hear what you're sayin, but the Oil's pov is all about cap space.

 

I've seen some pretty nice offers sent from eastern teams(HFBoard diehards) directed to Edm for Nuge. After sending Hall & Ebs out east, prob that pattern continues.

Fans out there see him as a former #1 OA, who put up decent pts early-on. If he has stalled, GM's out there will still likely gamble.

Mtl

Ott

Canes

Fish sticks

These clubs seem interested.

Could be... but if EDM is holding out for some sort of equivalence like the Hall deal I think they'll be waiting a long time. 

 

I guess I just see RNH as something of a disappointment, and don't see why he'd be better on another team. And I don't want him getting in the way of Petterson or Gaudette. 

 

 

[The_Rocket]

6 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

RNH is more highly skilled in the sense of being a pure shooter, but he's simply not a good shut down C. He's really bad on face-offs as well. We'd be forcing more defensive responsibilities on Bo, so I just don't see how it washes out to be anything better for us, and we're stuck with that salary. 

 

I agree that it is a tough loss losing sutters shutdown game, but when the contracts expire (both at 2020-21) RNH will fetch a higher price on the tdl market than brendon sutter (top 6 forward in his prime vs middle six role player on the decline).

 

Edmonton is currently in the position where they need to unload RNH for cap space, and we are in this position where we need to aquire assets. 

[JM_]

28 minutes ago, Canadian Clay said:

I agree that it is a tough loss losing sutters shutdown game, but when the contracts expire (both at 2020-21) RNH will fetch a higher price on the tdl market than brendon sutter (top 6 forward in his prime vs middle six role player on the decline).

 

Edmonton is currently in the position where they need to unload RNH for cap space, and we are in this position where we need to aquire assets. 

Sure but at what cost? People in favour of this deal seem to downplay Sutters ability to shelter the younger players and allow them to develop their offensive side. RNH won't do that for us. Sutter is much more useful to us in rebuild mode than RNH, at a cheaper cost too. 

 

People are also suggesting that RNH is a good defensive player, he really isn't. If he was a serviceable 3C, Edmonton wouldn't be looking to dump him. 

 

He's just the wrong player at the wrong time for the wrong price. 

[The_Rocket]

On 8/21/2017 at 8:29 PM, S'all Good Man said:

Sure but at what cost? People in favour of this deal seem to downplay Sutters ability to shelter the younger players and allow them to develop their offensive side. RNH won't do that for us. Sutter is much more useful to us in rebuild mode than RNH, at a cheaper cost too. 

 

People are also suggesting that RNH is a good defensive player, he really isn't. If he was a serviceable 3C, Edmonton wouldn't be looking to dump him. 

 

He's just the wrong player at the wrong time for the wrong price. 

I just cant't get behind the idea that overall sutter>RNH. RNH had ranked 62 among all centres for points last season with 43, despite being 94th in TOI for all centres (sutter avged a full minute more and scored 10 fewer points). He had a total of 11 minutes fewer shorthanded compared to sutter last year (sutter ~153 mins, RNH ~142 mins). RNH shot attempts last year 5v5 was -29, Sutter was -171. Clearly Edmonton believes he is a serviceable 3rd line centre, they just can't afford him.

 

obviously matchups and team quality play into these stats, but the only place where sutter is actually, demonstrably better than RNH is faceoffs.

 

we can agree to disagree, but i think a 4.35 million dollar faceoff guy who will be on the back half of his career at selling time is not as beneficial to the team as a 40-50 point, 6 million dollar second/third liner who will be in his prime years with no contract trade clauses when his contract expires. the cost is low, the reward is high, imo

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, Canadian Clay said:

I just cant't get behind the idea that overall sutter>RNH. RNH had ranked 62 among all centres for points last season with 43, despite being 94th in TOI for all centres (sutter avged a full minute more and scored 10 fewer points). He had a total of 11 minutes fewer shorthanded compared to sutter last year (sutter ~153 mins, RNH ~142 mins). RNH shot attempts last year 5v5 was -29, Sutter was -171. Clearly Edmonton believes he is a serviceable 3rd line centre, they just can't afford him.

 

obviously matchups and team quality play into these stats, but the only place where sutter is actually, demonstrably better than RNH is faceoffs.

 

we can agree to disagree, but i think a 4.35 million dollar faceoff guy who will be on the back half of his career at selling time is not as beneficial to the team as a 40-50 point, 6 million dollar second/third liner who will be in his prime years with no contract trade clauses when his contract expires. the cost is low, the reward is high, imo

This ignores the negative impact on Horvat (especially but the rest of the team as well) this would have. A team is not one player. 

[The_Rocket]

54 minutes ago, J.R. said:

This ignores the negative impact on Horvat (especially but the rest of the team as well) this would have. A team is not one player. 

Not sure how RNH is a negative impact on horvat? He can eat pk minutes and match up other teams top two lines. Frees up horvat for pp time, second unit pk, and 50/50 d-zone/o-zone starts. If horvat can't handle that then he's not the player he's made out to be on these forums

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Canadian Clay said:

Not sure how RNH is a negative impact on horvat? He can eat pk minutes and match up other teams top two lines. Frees up horvat for pp time, second unit pk, and 50/50 d-zone/o-zone starts. If horvat can't handle that then he's not the player he's made out to be on these forums

RNH is going to eat PK minutes and give Horvat more PP time...? 

 

I don't even know how to respond to that. 

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Canadian Clay said:

I just cant't get behind the idea that overall sutter>RNH. RNH had ranked 62 among all centres for points last season with 43, despite being 94th in TOI for all centres (sutter avged a full minute more and scored 10 fewer points). He had a total of 11 minutes fewer shorthanded compared to sutter last year (sutter ~153 mins, RNH ~142 mins). RNH shot attempts last year 5v5 was -29, Sutter was -171. Clearly Edmonton believes he is a serviceable 3rd line centre, they just can't afford him.

 

obviously matchups and team quality play into these stats, but the only place where sutter is actually, demonstrably better than RNH is faceoffs.

 

we can agree to disagree, but i think a 4.35 million dollar faceoff guy who will be on the back half of his career at selling time is not as beneficial to the team as a 40-50 point, 6 million dollar second/third liner who will be in his prime years with no contract trade clauses when his contract expires. the cost is low, the reward is high, imo

yup I can see what you're saying, but... (of course right) but I doubt RNH took as many hard match ups - I don't know if there's any stat site that tracks this but Sutter is a very good shut down C who is better on puck possession than RNH. 

 

Edmonton is using him as a 3C because they didn't really have any other option, but you are correct on trade value at the end of RNHs contract, he'd very likely fetch a lot more and maybe even 2 years from now. 

[Nuxfanabroad]

20 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

yup I can see what you're saying, but... (of course right) but I doubt RNH took as many hard match ups - I don't know if there's any stat site that tracks this but Sutter is a very good shut down C who is better on puck possession than RNH. 

 

Edmonton is using him as a 3C because they didn't really have any other option, but you are correct on trade value at the end of RNHs contract, he'd very likely fetch a lot more and maybe even 2 years from now. 

Glad you're acknowledging this S'all..it's an effective counter-argument. Essentially we're using current cap space to retain a Toyota(better re-sale value) instead of a Ford.

 

Is it the BEST way to utilize our cap space? So many questions for us hoi polloi, unwashed posters...

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Glad you're acknowledging this S'all..it's an effective counter-argument. Essentially we're using current cap space to retain a Toyota(better re-sale value) instead of a Ford.

 

Is it the BEST way to utilize our cap space? So many questions for us hoi polloi, unwashed posters...

I guess I just feel like Sutter's performance is very underrated by CDC. Solid shut down C, very good on face-offs, managed 17 goals with a bum wrist... and people here are happy to dump on him. I don't get it. We'd score more with RNH, but we'd be easier to score against too. So potato, po-tat-o. 

[Nuxfanabroad]

3 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

I guess I just feel like Sutter's performance is very underrated by CDC. Solid shut down C, very good on face-offs, managed 17 goals with a bum wrist... and people here are happy to dump on him. I don't get it. We'd score more with RNH, but we'd be easier to score against too. So potato, po-tat-o. 

But you'd have to agree, RNH likely has a higher ceiling(esp due to age). IF(big if) he & Gud had great yrs, the diehards can feel mighty good about the(recycled) Kes-return.

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

But you'd have to agree, RNH likely has a higher ceiling(esp due to age). IF(big if) he & Gud had great yrs, the diehards can feel mighty good about the(recycled) Kes-return.

oh for sure. If this did happen, if RNH was paired with a really solid 2-way player like Loui then it could work out for us, but if it doesn't Sutter does a solid job in the meantime. 

[The_Rocket]

10 hours ago, J.R. said:

RNH is going to eat PK minutes and give Horvat more PP time...? 

 

I don't even know how to respond to that. 

Rnh would be first unit PK, but not first unit PP like Sutter was this past year. 

 

That means horvat still doesn't have to be the go to guy for the pk but he might get first unit PP opportunities. 

 

Why is is that complicated?

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Canadian Clay said:

Rnh would be first unit PK, but not first unit PP like Sutter was this past year. 

 

That means horvat still doesn't have to be the go to guy for the pk but he might get first unit PP opportunities. 

 

Why is is that complicated?

Because RNH would not remotely be first unit pk. I honestly don't even know how you would get that idea. He's about the last player we'd put there. 

 

And the only reasons Sutter was on the 1st pp was because he can win draws (on the opposite side of Hank as well) and was a right shot for the twins. We'll have Gagner to fill that role (if not Boeser) now. 

 

RNH arguably has more 'trade value' than Sutter but that does not make him a better fit for our team, particularly at that salary.

 

We've already got Gagner to fill that 'tweener', C/W, 50'ish point role. And at almost 1/2 the price and without giving up assets (Sutter) that would put unwanted defensive strain on the entire team and especially Horvat. 

 

No thanks. 

 

The only trade that would make any sense for us IMO would be Baer...maybe Granlund for RNH + as a cap dump. Though I doubt they'd do it as that's one: a large discount. Two: they don't really need a LW.

 

We're an poor match for a trade. 

[Rob_Zepp]

8 hours ago, J.R. said:

Because RNH would not remotely be first unit pk. I honestly don't even know how you would get that idea. He's about the last player we'd put there. 

 

And the only reasons Sutter was on the 1st pp was because he can win draws (on the opposite side of Hank as well) and was a right shot for the twins. We'll have Gagner to fill that role (if not Boeser) now. 

 

RNH arguably has more 'trade value' than Sutter but that does not make him a better fit for our team, particularly at that salary.

 

We've already got Gagner to fill that 'tweener', C/W, 50'ish point role. And at almost 1/2 the price and without giving up assets (Sutter) that would put unwanted defensive strain on the entire team and especially Horvat. 

 

No thanks. 

 

The only trade that would make any sense for us IMO would be Baer...maybe Granlund for RNH + as a cap dump. Though I doubt they'd do it as that's one: a large discount. Two: they don't really need a LW.

 

We're an poor match for a trade. 

Oilers would love Tanev for RNH.   Canucks would be foolish to make that deal.  That is only deal that seems to make sense for Edmonton with Vancouver however given their CAP situation and positional needs.

[canuckmen84]

I would be furious If Tanev went to Edmonton or If Nuge was what was coming back in any trade with End.

RNH helps this team in no way, Sutter is more the type of center we need at this point in time. 

Gaudette will be in next year and pettersson the year after (prediction).

Put RNH on the wing where he is getting slammed into the boards like a fringey pylon??  NO Thanks!