Team Toughness.

[alfstonker]

In the re-writing of history, many of us are asked to look back and think that the reason we didn't win the cup in 2011 was "we were not tough enough" However when I think back and view that campaign what I see was a tough team masked by the veil of the refined genius of the Sedins.

 

Unfortunately we met Boston when we were decimated by injury, not only injury absence but worse was that many of our players carried what would normally be debilitating injuries onto the ice against them. "Injuries" are no excuse, except they are when they decimate a team's ability to compete.

 

That roster was laced with players who could not be described as plugs or bullies but were certainly able to look after themselves and did not allow themselves to be intimidated.

 

Players like Bieksa, Torres, Alberts, Glass, Rypien, Rome, Edler, Ehrhoff, Hansen, Kesler, Lapierre, Malhotra, Samuelsson, Higgins, would back down to no one as I remember. That is not to say they were ALL fighters but they had a group toughness that combined with their ability was a hard physical force to resist.

 

Goals For: 262 (1st of 30), Goals Against: 185 (1st of 30)

To reach the finals we played probably the 3 toughest teams in the league in the Blackhawks, Preds and Sharks. These games were bruising encounters as I remember and sadly they took their toll. We took on the Bruins without our 4th best points producer in Mikael Samuelsson, our top face off defensive forward Manny Malhotra and our top pairing D, Dan Hamhuis (gm-1). Added to that we lost one of our most physical Ds to a questionable suspension for the 4 remaining games against Boston.

 

Malhotra eye badly injured before playoffs
Hamhuis left game 1 scf and never returned with a torn abdominal muscle
Samuelsson left in the second round and never returned needing hernia and adductor surgery
Raymond broken back in game 6 scf, no penalty, no stretcher he was helped off the ice
Henrik played through a back injury since the second round
Kesler played through a hip injury since late conference finals
Edler played with 2 broken fingers
Ehrhoff hurt shoulder during wcf
Higgins damaged foot blocking a shot in second round
Bieksa had a bruised MCL after being slashed.
Rome suspended for a late hit in scf

 

Won Conference Finals (4-1) versus San Jose Sharks 
Won Conference Semi-Finals (4-2) versus Nashville Predators 
Won Conference Quarter-Finals (4-3) versus Chicago Blackhawks

 

 

 

 

Now to my point.

Some say on here we are 3 seasons away from contending. Are these people the same people who maintained we lost the cup because we were not tough enough? Well I ask them, where is the toughness, the pushback in this team? Where is it going to come from? We are a shadow of the 2010-11 team in that respect and there is no sign as far as I can see that we yet have the players/prospects to change that.

 

I look at our fine prospects in the pipeline and even those in the team and I start to recall this season's playoffs. There is no way we can stand up to the physicality the Oilers or the Caps handed out.

 

It is early in our rebuild and hopefully this toughness/pushback factor will be addressed and I don't mean with players who can hardly fill their named role like Pedan or LaBate. 

I can already hear some saying "oh but we are building skill and speed" - well my reply would be, do the Oilers or the Caps or the Pens lack skill and speed? - did the 2011 Canucks lack skill and speed?

You have to find a way to combine that skill and speed with the ability to push back and let teams know you can't be intimidated. I don't see any signs of that yet, do you?

[Rubik]

Here's our playoff roster from that year. Look at the 'acquired' dates. More than half of the players were only added a couple of years before our run. I think we need 4 or 5 really good players (elite, skilled core, we already have some, like Demko, Juolevi, Pettersson, not mentioning Boeser and Horvat), and the rest of them (as you called it toughness/pushback factor) will come to us through free agency/TDL deals.

 

 

Don't panic. The majority of a cup winning team's roster assembles only 1-2 years prior the cup run. Another example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_Pittsburgh_Penguins_season#Roster

[73 Percent]

While I agree that from what I see in our future team we definitely  need more toughness, however I think you are overstating it a bit. You mention the  physicality of the caps and oilers but neither of them made it past the second round. I do agree though that we need to start thinking about toughness. No doesn't seem like he'll back down from much but goldobin granlund baertschi stetcher and dalhin all seem to be on the small ish softer side. 

 

This is the main reason why it's so important for virtanen and gudbranson to work out one way or another and be AT LEAST nhl players.  If gradovich makes it to the show thats an added bonus. He looks tough as nails. Also fingers crossed tryamkin comes back. 

 

All in all of like to see a little more toughness added in the pipeline but we're not as far off as you make it seem. It's alot harder to add skill to your team via free agency/ trades than it is toughness so I don't mind what's going on.

[riffraff]

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/381731-canucks-team-toughness/#comment-13860438

 

[Alflives]

45 minutes ago, 73 Percent said:

While I agree that from what I see in our future team we definitely  need more toughness, however I think you are overstating it a bit. You mention the  physicality of the caps and oilers but neither of them made it past the second round. I do agree though that we need to start thinking about toughness. No doesn't seem like he'll back down from much but goldobin granlund baertschi stetcher and dalhin all seem to be on the small ish softer side. 

 

This is the main reason why it's so important for virtanen and gudbranson to work out one way or another and be AT LEAST nhl players.  If gradovich makes it to the show thats an added bonus. He looks tough as nails. Also fingers crossed tryamkin comes back. 

 

All in all of like to see a little more toughness added in the pipeline but we're not as far off as you make it seem. It's alot harder to add skill to your team via free agency/ trades than it is toughness so I don't mind what's going on.

There's fighting tough, and rock solid tough, and controlling the puck tough, and taking hits to make plays tough, and standing up for your mates tough, and intimidating though, and...

 

Maybe the young guys JB is accumulating will fill all those roles between them?  You're right about Guddy; he fills several tough roles.     

[Burnt Gravy]

It's more about making a brand. The Devils and Redwings did it better than anyone back in the day. They figured out their team identities, hired coaches that enforced that style, and drafted players who fit that profile. There are countless examples of players who could only be Devils or Wings because it wasn't the individual that made the team successful it was the team that made the player succeed. Look at Holik and Gomez for example. The modern day examples are right infront of us. The Blackhawks have a brand of hockey, the Preds definitely do as well, along with the kings. They may not win the Stanley cup every year but they maintain a style and play their system regardless of which players are on the ice. That is why they always seem unphased by player turnover. 

 

My point is, the size and style of the player come after the teams identity is established. I think we are still in the process of figuring that out. We seem to be evolving into a skilled team with speed. Would a big guy who can punch people in the face complement that? I'm not sure.  

[IBatch]

Thanks for the analysis, it hurts a little less everytime I get my CDC 2011 therapy.

Toughness has little to do with that loss, and had everything to do with Thomas and his three years of Hasekdonian play.  Tampa in five I said at time, I was scared to play Boston.  Record saves, record shots faced enough said about that.

 

This team is soft as butter and got even softer with free agency.

 

PIT traded their first rounder this year to add toughness despite winning back to back cups recognizing the need to police and protect their superstars.  Supposedly they plan to add one more Reaves type too.  

 

The message their is don't screw with our stars, and skill isn't enough alone.

 

Jonah G and Virtanen will have a better chance at making our club than two of our skilled Lind types when it comes time to make a playoff team. At least I hope so.

[Crabcakes]

54 minutes ago, Burnt Gravy said:

It's more about making a brand. The Devils and Redwings did it better than anyone back in the day. They figured out their team identities, hired coaches that enforced that style, and drafted players who fit that profile. There are countless examples of players who could only be Devils or Wings because it wasn't the individual that made the team successful it was the team that made the player succeed. Look at Holik and Gomez for example. The modern day examples are right infront of us. The Blackhawks have a brand of hockey, the Preds definitely do as well, along with the kings. They may not win the Stanley cup every year but they maintain a style and play their system regardless of which players are on the ice. That is why they always seem unphased by player turnover. 

 

My point is, the size and style of the player come after the teams identity is established. I think we are still in the process of figuring that out. We seem to be evolving into a skilled team with speed. Would a big guy who can punch people in the face complement that? I'm not sure.  

Speed, skill, hard to play against, character, good shot

[RetroCanuck]

toughness is much easier to acquire later on in a rebuild then skill

[JM_]

31 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

toughness is much easier to acquire later on in a rebuild then skill

exactly. Once a new skilled core is in place you can always overpay a bit in free agency or afford to bring in guys with less skill through your system who have specific jobs like hit everything in sight. 

[TimberWolf]

You let your stars dictate your identity, not force an identity upon your stars. 

[189lb enforcers?]

Draft the Doan and Iginla types. 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

2 minutes ago, TimberWolf said:

You let your stars dictate your identity, not force an identity upon your stars. 

or put Lucic beside your star 

[Canada Hockey Place]

RE: 2011

 

Ah, no. We got screwed by Game Management. Rules changed from series to series, then game by game. To stretch series out to maximize revenue. It is part of the game.

 

IMO a craftier coach would have won it for us. Vigneault severely limited his depth options. ie. never rested injured players/probably let them decide when to play, could have used Schneider more. But he never adapted and the team relied on 1 PP line to score and Luongo to save everything.  When that didn't happen they were like a deer caught in the headlights. 

 

 

 

 

[Zhukini]

12 minutes ago, TimberWolf said:

You let your stars dictate your identity, not force an identity upon your stars. 

This, don't force a square peg into a round hole. 

 

The 06-07 Canucks were good at trapping, the 09-12 Canucks were good at scoring, untill injuries took over.Which means they needed more scoring depth, not more toughness. 

 

 Find a unique system that works for your team and just commit to it.

[Zhukini]

And I agree with those names, but putting Samuelsson on that list is like saying Vrbata gave a damn his last year

[NewbieCanuckFan]

And yet....blowhards like Ron MacLean made the Canucks out to be "a team of dirty cheapshot artists/scum of the earth"....**** *** Ron McLean....when Don Cherry of all people are more "neutral" (given Cherry's leanings towards the Bruins) you know MacLean's paycheques have been signed by Jacobs.

 

Yeah nobody on the Canucks would've been Lady Byng trophy candidates but the Bruins would hardly be considered boy scouts  (with pukes like Marchand, Thomas & Lucic on that squad).  Can never forgive the hatchet job MacLean did.

[TimberWolf]

20 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

or put Lucic beside your star 

 

 

true but McDavid still dictates the flow of the game.

 

I agree with the protection, though and you should get that later. Like when the Sedins played so much bigger with Kassian on their line.

[CanadianRugby]

You're right that you need toughness (unless you can just outskill every other team in the league) and yeah this team is soft as butter which I hate short term, but long term it doesn't matter.  Once you have skill and speed you can use assets to add toughness in your bottom 6 or bottom pairing D.  

 

All these small skilled prospects won't be on the team, only the best ones will fill roles.  There will be spots open for toughness every year.  

[TheGuardian_]

This management group is trying to put together a regular season team that looks good losing. It looks like they will wait until lady luck grants them a couple of wishes at the draft table, until then, roster spots need to be filled.

 

From day one they have not addressed the glaring need of this team until this draft, considered a rather weak draft at that.

 

That is three drafts that basically ignored the most pressing need, the Sedin replacements.

 

They have assembled a smaller type team, that's not to say these kids aren't doing their very best, but they just are not going to have many other players looking over their shoulders and can be out muscled.

 

I agree with the post, IMO this group is no where near being able to compete in a playoff game, they could be the smallest team in the league.