alfstonker

Team Toughness.

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Just now, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Too bad Torres crossed the line too many times (granted, if he didn't, it's unlikely he would've changed teams that much to the point of being a Canuck at one time in his career).  When he played "within the rules", he could be very effective  (ie., *LEGAL* hit he threw on Thornton that knocked him out of the series essentially in one of our playoff series with the Sharks).

Virtanen has that potential - a player with speed who can encroach quickly and hit with punishing force.   He can create space and lead to a lot of room for his team.

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On 7/18/2017 at 4:03 AM, alfstonker said:

Now to my point.

Some say on here we are 3 seasons away from contending. Are these people the same people who maintained we lost the cup because we were not tough enough? Well I ask them, where is the toughness, the pushback in this team? Where is it going to come from?

This post is about 3-4 years too early.  Team toughness is not the biggest concern right now.  It's easier to find than speed and skill.  The Canucks need to put more pucks in the net and sometimes you need to work with a lot of different guys to find that skilled gem who comes out of nowhere.  JB did draft Jonah Gadjovich which will help.  He also resigned Guddy who is supposed to help with that.  I'm not too concerned but will certainly look for some more toughness in a few more years.

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Virtanen to replace Dorsett.... we are all happy fans again!! No disrespect to Dorsett who's been our warrior but the game has elevated both in speed and skill!

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On 7/18/2017 at 4:03 AM, alfstonker said:

I look at our fine prospects in the pipeline and even those in the team and I start to recall this season's playoffs. There is no way we can stand up to the physicality the Oilers or the Caps handed out.

 

It is early in our rebuild and hopefully this toughness/pushback factor will be addressed and I don't mean with players who can hardly fill their named role like Pedan or LaBate. 

I can already hear some saying "oh but we are building skill and speed" - well my reply would be, do the Oilers or the Caps or the Pens lack skill and speed? - did the 2011 Canucks lack skill and speed?

You have to find a way to combine that skill and speed with the ability to push back and let teams know you can't be intimidated. I don't see any signs of that yet, do you?

The Oilers only picked up their "big/tough guys" Maroon, Kassian, and Lucic in the last two years.

 

Benning's vision is four fast, scoring lines, as that is where he sees the league going and that is repeated by other GMs out there.  We already have prospects that project to fill the toughness role, and with better skill.

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1 hour ago, Hutton Wink said:

The Oilers only picked up their "big/tough guys" Maroon, Kassian, and Lucic in the last two years.

 

Benning's vision is four fast, scoring lines, as that is where he sees the league going and that is repeated by other GMs out there.  We already have prospects that project to fill the toughness role, and with better skill.

Better skill than kassian, maroon, and lucic?  Wow.

 

kassian is streaky but I bet if he's on a skilled line he becomes effective.  Lucic is admittedly on a decline but maroon is a really good player.  Since coming from Anaheim he's been one of the oilers best all around players imo.

 

Dont get me wrong.  I can't stand maroon but credit where it's due.

 

if we end up with two guys that can replicate kassian and maroon as they are right now I will be impressed and thrilled.

Edited by riffraff
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11 hours ago, Hutton Wink said:

The Oilers only picked up their "big/tough guys" Maroon, Kassian, and Lucic in the last two years.

 

Benning's vision is four fast, scoring lines, as that is where he sees the league going and that is repeated by other GMs out there.  We already have prospects that project to fill the toughness role, and with better skill.

Agreed but not entirely.

Draisaitl, Nurse, Klefbom, McDavid and Pakarinen are all pretty big guys who play physical.

 

I don't dispute that the league is going for speed but where does it say that physicality is not part of that package? Playing "heavy" with speed and skill will always top speed and skill without physicality in the playoffs imo.

Edited by alfstonker
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I wouldn't call Pittsburgh a physical team who has won each of the last two cups, I wouldn't call Edmonton tough.  You couldn't dare call Ottawa, Nashville or Montreal "tough".  This whole argument is laughable. 

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6 hours ago, TheCerebral1 said:

I wouldn't call Pittsburgh a physical team who has won each of the last two cups, I wouldn't call Edmonton tough.  You couldn't dare call Ottawa, Nashville or Montreal "tough".  This whole argument is laughable. 

Just think back to sh*t-face Kadri running at Daniel. Deterents are nice. Tit-for-tat should be on the table.

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6 hours ago, TheCerebral1 said:

I wouldn't call Pittsburgh a physical team who has won each of the last two cups,

Yet they signed Ryan Reaves.

6 hours ago, TheCerebral1 said:

I wouldn't call Edmonton tough.

Lucic, Maroon, Kassian, Nurse

6 hours ago, TheCerebral1 said:

 You couldn't dare call Ottawa, Nashville or Montreal "tough".

Montreal: Shea Weber, Karl Alzner, Andrew Shaw, Brendan Gallagher.

 

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12 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Just think back to sh*t-face Kadri running at Daniel. Deterents are nice. Tit-for-tat should be on the table.

Exactly. In my mind, I don't determine team toughness by how many faces Gudbranson or Dorsett pummel, but how the team responds to physical play, and liberties taken on their fellow teammates.

 

It's an overall attitude that should be exuded by the majority of the roster.

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7 hours ago, TheCerebral1 said:

I wouldn't call Pittsburgh a physical team who has won each of the last two cups, I wouldn't call Edmonton tough.  You couldn't dare call Ottawa, Nashville or Montreal "tough".  This whole argument is laughable. 

Edmonton, Montreal, Ottawas, not tough?  What?! Also, you talking bout the same Pens team that called up Setsito for a game to do some dirty work?

Edited by J-23
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On 19/07/2017 at 7:22 PM, Rob_Zepp said:

Virtanen has that potential - a player with speed who can encroach quickly and hit with punishing force.   He can create space and lead to a lot of room for his team.

 

The comparison to Torres is a good one IMO, the hitting part yet to be seen how successfully he plays on the edge.  Torres often left his feet and had a hard time reeling it in once it was called often.  Nothing at all wrong with that, a fast skilled third liner who plays on the edge

 

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17 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 

The comparison to Torres is a good one IMO, the hitting part yet to be seen how successfully he plays on the edge.  Torres often left his feet and had a hard time reeling it in once it was called often.  Nothing at all wrong with that, a fast skilled third liner who plays on the edge

 

I think Virtanen has far more offensive talent upside than Torres had by quite a wide margin.   I also think he is a top six (Virtanen) at some point in his career.   I remain convinced this is a legitimate player and have contended that from his draft day (and prior) - long way to go but my patience is being slowly rewarded.

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30 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I think Virtanen has far more offensive talent upside than Torres had by quite a wide margin.   I also think he is a top six (Virtanen) at some point in his career.   I remain convinced this is a legitimate player and have contended that from his draft day (and prior) - long way to go but my patience is being slowly rewarded.

That would really be a bonus.  He reminds me a little of Mike Ricci too, minus the hair.  Great speed with a knack for scoring and a heavy game isn't that common, maybe our patience is rewarded.  

Edited by IBatch

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On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 4:03 AM, alfstonker said:

In the re-writing of history, many of us are asked to look back and think that the reason we didn't win the cup in 2011 was "we were not tough enough" However when I think back and view that campaign what I see was a tough team masked by the veil of the refined genius of the Sedins.

 

Unfortunately we met Boston when we were decimated by injury, not only injury absence but worse was that many of our players carried what would normally be debilitating injuries onto the ice against them. "Injuries" are no excuse, except they are when they decimate a team's ability to compete.

 

That roster was laced with players who could not be described as plugs or bullies but were certainly able to look after themselves and did not allow themselves to be intimidated.

 

Players like Bieksa, Torres, Alberts, Glass, Rypien, Rome, Edler, Ehrhoff, Hansen, Kesler, Lapierre, Malhotra, Samuelsson, Higgins, would back down to no one as I remember. That is not to say they were ALL fighters but they had a group toughness that combined with their ability was a hard physical force to resist.

 

Goals For: 262 (1st of 30), Goals Against: 185 (1st of 30)

To reach the finals we played probably the 3 toughest teams in the league in the Blackhawks, Preds and Sharks. These games were bruising encounters as I remember and sadly they took their toll. We took on the Bruins without our 4th best points producer in Mikael Samuelsson, our top face off defensive forward Manny Malhotra and our top pairing D, Dan Hamhuis (gm-1). Added to that we lost one of our most physical Ds to a questionable suspension for the 4 remaining games against Boston.

 

Malhotra eye badly injured before playoffs
Hamhuis left game 1 scf and never returned with a torn abdominal muscle
Samuelsson left in the second round and never returned needing hernia and adductor surgery
Raymond broken back in game 6 scf, no penalty, no stretcher he was helped off the ice
Henrik played through a back injury since the second round
Kesler played through a hip injury since late conference finals
Edler played with 2 broken fingers
Ehrhoff hurt shoulder during wcf
Higgins damaged foot blocking a shot in second round
Bieksa had a bruised MCL after being slashed.
Rome suspended for a late hit in scf

 

Won Conference Finals (4-1) versus San Jose Sharks 
Won Conference Semi-Finals (4-2) versus Nashville Predators 
Won Conference Quarter-Finals (4-3) versus Chicago Blackhawks

 

 

 

 

Now to my point.

Some say on here we are 3 seasons away from contending. Are these people the same people who maintained we lost the cup because we were not tough enough? Well I ask them, where is the toughness, the pushback in this team? Where is it going to come from? We are a shadow of the 2010-11 team in that respect and there is no sign as far as I can see that we yet have the players/prospects to change that.

 

I look at our fine prospects in the pipeline and even those in the team and I start to recall this season's playoffs. There is no way we can stand up to the physicality the Oilers or the Caps handed out.

 

It is early in our rebuild and hopefully this toughness/pushback factor will be addressed and I don't mean with players who can hardly fill their named role like Pedan or LaBate. 

I can already hear some saying "oh but we are building skill and speed" - well my reply would be, do the Oilers or the Caps or the Pens lack skill and speed? - did the 2011 Canucks lack skill and speed?

You have to find a way to combine that skill and speed with the ability to push back and let teams know you can't be intimidated. I don't see any signs of that yet, do you?

Your half right, we did have a semi-grit team BUT look at the depth we had...  ermmm....  oh wait.... there wasn't much ooooops...  yes we screamed cup for so many years we gave up building for tomorrow usually so "finally" NOW we're getting somewhere near that, one might say in various degrees but at least we have prospects and younger players coming in slowly. 

 

That's why Boston beat us, and before that was Chicago when we had no answer for Buffy running Lou and no one to move him and liberties galore. THAT really sucked :(   However...   Benning will try and sort that out with what's available (I hope)  lol 

 

So it was lack of depth too, and Torres waking the bear sure didn't help... 

 

A positive note says with the exception of Eriksson not exactly working out as planned but who saw that coming?  Benning has done reasonably well except *imo* going for Elias instead of a top line bigger center and extremely talented type of player too but then again there's the dark horse in McEwen that may or may not pan out depending how his game progresses in his development, some late bloomers have turned out awesome in the NHL and hope we have one in him. 

Edited by iceman64

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