[Discussion] Why Don't We Recreate 2011?

[IBatch]

 

2 hours ago, lmm said:

Lets not forget that the 11-12 window was open to other teams because Sid was injured with a concussion. Had that not been the case he might have just won his 5th cup this year.

Is that because hes going to win his fourth next year?

45 minutes ago, Gudbransons_Elbow said:

 

 

[Riviera82]

9 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Hardly helped that Sedin received a "gift" in the form of an elbow to the head from Duncan Keith (who got off light in terms of a suspension).

No that definitely didn't help. In my opinion though it didn't hurt as much as some folks like to make it seem.

[Riviera82]

6 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Good point! Rarely see this discussed or explored. Raises interesting questions of whether we were only ever elite enough for one strong run, or whether management mishandled what should have been another run in 2012. 

 

Have to be honest here ... It felt great during those Presidents Trophy years but it never truly felt like we were dominantly elite for multiple cup runs. In hindsight it was 2010, 2011, or 2012... that was our window. It always felt like we were working our asses off to be elite and stay elite. The 2011 run was a byproduct of that hard work. I often wonder if the players themselves believed they were elite. 

 

Even with the great regular seasons in our prime of the era, there was always an underlying sense of holding your breath, waiting for the other shoe to drop. 

 

 

Yes, totally agree. I think that's where the "extra gear" comes in; our top players didn't have it on a consistent basis, the teams that beat us did.

[EdgarM]

Some very good points brought up regarding the 2011 team.

 

1. Top notch REGULAR SEASON team and not so much in the playoffs during this era.

2. Lacked team toughness and it showed numerous times in the playoffs.

3. Did not have the type of players to "turn it up" or "find another gear" with the exception of maybe Kessler.

4. TOP "Elite" players could not find a way to win in the finals. They were "Shutout" twice and Lui had a really bad game.

5. Could not sustain dominance in the playoffs. Did not make it past the second round with the exception of  2011 during the era.

 

The team looked good on paper and it showed in the regular season that it could be a dominate force as proven by all of the Presidents Trophies. The problem was getting them to step it up in the playoffs.

I believe the new version can be an improvement of this team. Skill with strong mental skills with maybe a little toughness. The playoffs have no room for just tough players(Dorsett) but the top guys need to have this skill as well(Toews,Malkin,Bure,Weber etc.)

[DownUndaCanuck]

9 hours ago, hlaevang said:

I don't always find myself agreeing with you but I have to give you credit. You hit the issue square in the head. Having a strong offensive defender with a big shot is one area we have not been able to address properly since Salo left the franchise. He had his health issues (much like Tanev does) but when he was one the ice he helped drive the play. I can only name one former Canuck who had as big of shot as him: Adrian Aucoin. This is why I was hoping we were going to land Liljegren early, or snag Callan Foote later in the draft. It wasn't meant to be this year, but I do hope they address this going forward, either through the draft or through trade. I would love to see us be dominant from the blueline outwards again. 

Watching how many of those 2011 goals came from Edler and Ehrhoff really makes you wonder why we haven't addressed this issue sooner. They were brilliant at driving the puck into the offensive zone, skating in, cross-crease passing and of course, heavy shots that were either tipped in, zipped straight in or caused a rebound.

 

We never had a good net front presence, even in 2011, we never had any giant bodies up front, but because of the quality of the point shot we generated so much offence.

 

Watching the Canucks since even 2013, we've never had that element to our offence. Too many shots go wide, and the D-men aren't skating the puck into the offensive zone anywhere nearly as confidently and quickly as they did in the Edler-Ehrhoff era.

 

Let's hope Juolevi can start this trend again, but we're going to need another Juolevi or two to really get back to a good standard on the blueline. I hope we walk away from the 2018 first round with 2 D-men. 

[alfstonker]

10 hours ago, Gudbransons_Elbow said:

8pts in 24 is pretty much Raffi Torres level scoring without the hitting . That's not very good especially when you get more minutes and play with better linemates. 

 

Imo you could have plugged anybody in with Kesler/Samuelsson that season and the season before Kesler/Demitra/Sundin and they would've put up decent numbers. 

 

Ok cool so anybody with a different opinion should choose a different sport? That's nice. 

Mason Raymond had the 4th best corsi percentage figures in seasons 2009-10 and 2010-11 Raymond was also 5th highest even strength goals and 4th in assists in season 2010-11, He also had the 6th highest points production in the playoffs amongst forwards.

 

In fact he had the best corsi amongst players playing 70 or more games in season 2010-11.

 

Yet in your delusional state of mind you think that does not qualify him to play in the top 6.

 

To say you could have plugged ANYBODY in with Kesler and Samuelsson (who incidentally Raymond's corsi was superior) just makes you look foolish.

[alfstonker]

4 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Watching how many of those 2011 goals came from Edler and Ehrhoff really makes you wonder why we haven't addressed this issue sooner. They were brilliant at driving the puck into the offensive zone, skating in, cross-crease passing and of course, heavy shots that were either tipped in, zipped straight in or caused a rebound.

 

We never had a good net front presence, even in 2011, we never had any giant bodies up front, but because of the quality of the point shot we generated so much offence.

 

Watching the Canucks since even 2013, we've never had that element to our offence. Too many shots go wide, and the D-men aren't skating the puck into the offensive zone anywhere nearly as confidently and quickly as they did in the Edler-Ehrhoff era.

 

Let's hope Juolevi can start this trend again, but we're going to need another Juolevi or two to really get back to a good standard on the blueline. I hope we walk away from the 2018 first round with 2 D-men. 

I have great hopes for this boy who, if he can shine in Utica may yet have something to offer in the NHL despite his late start. I thought he skated well in the prospects camp too.

 

 

 

[alfstonker]

16 hours ago, Hectic said:

Haha I did the same thing.. didn't watch it for years.. deleted it about a year ago

We are all trying to forget it - because the truth is we were the best team in the league by a country mile - we WERE tough, we WERE fast, we WERE skilled - and yet due largely (yet again) to injuries we were denied our destiny.

 

I don't think any fan can ever forget something like that - it would take a SC win and even then most of us would still think that win should have been our second.

 

 

[spook007]

1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

We are all trying to forget it - because the truth is we were the best team in the league by a country mile - we WERE tough, we WERE fast, we WERE skilled - and yet due largely (yet again) to injuries we were denied our destiny.

 

I don't think any fan can ever forget something like that - it would take a SC win and even then most of us would still think that win should have been our second.

 

 

Knew I shouldn't have watched this... brought a fricken tear to my eye. Damn it was a good team to watch....

[Ferlands_Head]

1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

Mason Raymond had the 4th best corsi percentage figures in seasons 2009-10 and 2010-11 Raymond was also 5th highest even strength goals and 4th in assists in season 2010-11, He also had the 6th highest points production in the playoffs amongst forwards.

 

In fact he had the best corsi amongst players playing 70 or more games in season 2010-11.

 

Yet in your delusional state of mind you think that does not qualify him to play in the top 6.

 

To say you could have plugged ANYBODY in with Kesler and Samuelsson (who incidentally Raymond's corsi was superior) just makes you look foolish.

Yeah but how does that make him a top 6 forward? TIM JACKMAN had excellent Corsi percentage figures in 2011 similar to MayRay in fact and played in all 82 games. In your eyes is Tim Jackman a top 6 forward? 

 

As for him being 6th in point production in the 11 playoffs  that's right where I would expect him to be. With a healthy Samuelsson he's likely 7th but thats just speculation. He's a 3rd line winger at best imo. 

 

Raymond's Corsi was superior to every Canuck in 2011 sure but how does that make him superior to (not even mentioning our top guys) a guy like Samuelsson?

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

We are all trying to forget it - because the truth is we were the best team in the league by a country mile - we WERE tough, we WERE fast, we WERE skilled - and yet due largely (yet again) to injuries we were denied our destiny.

 

I don't think any fan can ever forget something like that - it would take a SC win and even then most of us would still think that win should have been our second.

 

 

Thanks for that post.  Reading some of these posts I was just shaking my head. We had numerous players step it up too, after SJ Bieksa was also a front runner ( medias picks) for the Conn Smythe.  Thomas was just too good.  Toughness had less to do with the Boston series that Dick head standing on his head, record saves, record shots against in a  final.

[IBatch]

35 minutes ago, Gudbransons_Elbow said:

Yeah but how does that make him a top 6 forward? TIM JACKMAN had excellent Corsi percentage figures in 2011 similar to MayRay in fact and played in all 82 games. In your eyes is Tim Jackman a top 6 forward? 

 

As for him being 6th in point production in the 11 playoffs  that's right where I would expect him to be. With a healthy Samuelsson he's likely 7th but thats just speculation. He's a 3rd line winger at best imo. 

 

Raymond's Corsi was superior to every Canuck in 2011 sure but how does that make him superior to (not even mentioning our top guys) a guy like Samuelsson?

I don't think your delusional.  Raymond had speed to burn and a few good years, but he made so many blunders with the puck, it was like a hot potato and he didn't know what to do with it.  Maybe seven to nine on a good team, four to six on a bad one.  

[NewbieCanuckFan]

49 minutes ago, Gudbransons_Elbow said:

Yeah but how does that make him a top 6 forward? TIM JACKMAN had excellent Corsi percentage figures in 2011 similar to MayRay in fact and played in all 82 games. In your eyes is Tim Jackman a top 6 forward? 

 

Point production - which is the primary thing you're looking for in a top 6 forward (at least a "traditional top 6 forward").

 

Tim Jackman's career high was 23 points.  Mason Raymond's was 53 points.  A HUGE difference no matter who was the center (btw, Raymond also hit 45 points with the Laffs).

 

Would I want him on my team in the top 6 if I thought my team was a Cup contender?  Nope; but that isn't to say he's a scrub (that is then...).

[Standing_Tall#37]

Didn't we score the least amount of goals in a 7 game series in NHL history? I mean if we didn't have Lou.... we would have been swept. 

 

 The Canucks also got out coached bad and someone said it here prior. That squad was weak mentally.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

7 minutes ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

Didn't we score the least amount of goals in a 7 game series in NHL history? I mean if we didn't have Lou.... we would have been swept. 

 

Lou imploded too much @ home in the series; but what is often lost is that Lou ALSO had two shutouts in that series.  This is an example of the "goal support" he had....in each of those shutouts, we scored just ONE goal in those games.  That's the margin of error he had to work with.

[Hectic]

9 hours ago, alfstonker said:

We are all trying to forget it - because the truth is we were the best team in the league by a country mile - we WERE tough, we WERE fast, we WERE skilled - and yet due largely (yet again) to injuries we were denied our destiny.

 

I don't think any fan can ever forget something like that - it would take a SC win and even then most of us would still think that win should have been our second.

 

 

I'm a '91, so wasn't really able to comprehend what was going on in '94 - 2011 team was the dream team, reminds me of how dominant the Capitals are during the regular season.. there really isn't a reason other than parity and that anything can happen in the playoffs as to why they can't win it all - same with us in 2011 (injuries played a huge role though). 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

6 minutes ago, Hectic said:

I'm a '91, so wasn't really able to comprehend what was going on in '94 - 2011 team was the dream team, reminds me of how dominant the Capitals are during the regular season.. there really isn't a reason other than parity and that anything can happen in the playoffs as to why they can't win it all - same with us in 2011 (injuries played a huge role though). 

Most/all Cup winning teams require an element of luck (ie., injuries).  We had such luck (only it wasn't *good* luck).

[Hectic]

Just now, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Most/all Cup winning teams require an element of luck (ie., injuries).  We had such luck (only it wasn't *good* luck).

yup! So many people fail to realize that luck plays a huge role - without Johansen and Fiala the Preds still took Pit to 6 games.. just love the parity in the NHL and at the end of the day a lot of time it comes down to the simple fact that anything can happen. When it's your hometown team though, we always try to find reasons such as being out coached, having weak goaltending, not having enough toughness, depth, etc.. 

[Baggins]

8 hours ago, Gudbransons_Elbow said:

Yeah but how does that make him a top 6 forward? TIM JACKMAN had excellent Corsi percentage figures in 2011 similar to MayRay in fact and played in all 82 games. In your eyes is Tim Jackman a top 6 forward? 

 

As for him being 6th in point production in the 11 playoffs  that's right where I would expect him to be. With a healthy Samuelsson he's likely 7th but thats just speculation. He's a 3rd line winger at best imo. 

 

Raymond's Corsi was superior to every Canuck in 2011 sure but how does that make him superior to (not even mentioning our top guys) a guy like Samuelsson?

Going on production Raymond was an average 2nd line forward. That alone qualifies him as a top 6 forward. Was he a star? No. But how many teams have a 3 star first liners and 3 star 2nd liners? Typically on a very good team there's one top line players that falls into the average to above average 1st line production category and one 2nd line player that falls into the average 2nd line production player category.

[Ferlands_Head]

12 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Point production - which is the primary thing you're looking for in a top 6 forward (at least a "traditional top 6 forward").

 

Tim Jackman's career high was 23 points.  Mason Raymond's was 53 points.  A HUGE difference no matter who was the center (btw, Raymond also hit 45 points with the Laffs).

 

Would I want him on my team in the top 6 if I thought my team was a Cup contender?  Nope; but that isn't to say he's a scrub (that is then...).

I only used Tim Jackman as an argument to show that not all players with great Corsi percentage figures are good players.