Bo for Leon(Proposal-Discussion)

[The Lock]

5 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

All reasonable what you say here. I'd counter the minute they inked McD above 12 mill, a Drai-deal became more possible. Consider their(very reasonably priced) D-core if we took Sekeras, & they landed Tanev.

 

Klefbom - Larsson (8.3 mill)

Russell - Tanev (8.5 mill)

Nurse - Gryba/Benning(peanuts)

 

With McD & Bo down the middle, they'd be damn formidable for a longgg time.

Also Poolparty arriving(3 yrs of ELC) to offset the power fwd loss of Drai.

 

...unfair really.

And with McD and Drai they'll also be formidable down the middle, perhaps even more formidable, for a long time and could probably get a player like Tanev in another deal that didn't involve Drai.

 

Given the cap is higher, it's actually been calculated that McD is being paid less than Crosby when you consider the percentage of each contract in respect to the total cap to when they were signed. Yet, Pittsburgh still had contracts like Malkin, Kessel, Letang, and Fleury. So, while 12mil may seem like a lot, he hasn't exactly hurt Edmonton's ability to do other deals if we consider what they were able to do in Pittsburgh. It will be interesting to see what Draisatl gets paid in the end though.

[bp79]

1 hour ago, canuckmen84 said:

 

 

You know what happens next...

Horvat goes no where period.

stupid comp I didn't include Granny Tho im sure that doesn't change your opinion just wanted to clarify that lol

[Nuxfanabroad]

3 minutes ago, The Lock said:

And with McD and Drai they'll also be formidable down the middle, perhaps even more formidable, for a long time and could probably get a player like Tanev in another deal that didn't involve Drai.

 

Given the cap is higher, it's actually been calculated that McD is being paid less than Crosby when you consider the percentage of each contract in respect to the total cap to when they were signed. Yet, Pittsburgh still had contracts like Malkin, Kessel, Letang, and Fleury. So, while 12mil may seem like a lot, he hasn't exactly hurt Edmonton's ability to do other deals if we consider what they were able to do in Pittsburgh. It will be interesting to see what Draisatl gets paid in the end though.

People point to this obvious comparison(Cros, Malks), but I'm not convinced it works. One problem I have is the implication that's precisely what it takes. Say Pitt had a combo of Crosby/Bergeron..would they still have won Cups? I bet they would have.

 

Good teams often have so many attractive elements, it's hard to boil it down to one common denominator. Especially in this cap/parity existence.

 

- McD/Drai, is a more talented, yet top-heavy, imbalanced roster(possibly becoming a LeCav, StLouis, Richards thing)

 

- McD/Bo/deep & cheap D..might become a deeper, more sustainable contender. Especially with Poolparty types laying in the weeds.

[John McClane]

Just stepping back a minute. What kind of point totals would BO have had playing behind CM like Leon did last year?

 

would the point totals been about the same as Leon's? 

Would they have been the same as he put up playing behind D&H?

How would Leon do no longer playing behind CD who draws all the other teams best checkers?

 

I don't think Leon possesses the same Captain type qualitys as BO. Can't dismiss those. 

 

The prices proposed seem fair. I just don't know if the overall trade off between the 2 players would put us that much further ahead by making the move. 

 

I'd lean more towards keeping Bo, and being able to afford to surround him with good players. 

[The Lock]

Just now, Nuxfanabroad said:

People point to this obvious comparison(Cros, Malks), but I'm not convinced it works. One problem I have is the implication that's precisely what it takes. Say Pitt had a combo of Crosby/Bergeron..would they still have won Cups? I bet they would have.

 

Good teams often have so many attractive elements, it's hard to boil it down to one common denominator. Especially in this cap/parity existence.

 

- McD/Drai, is a more talented, yet top-heavy, imbalanced roster(possibly becoming a LeCav, StLouis, Richards thing)

 

- McD/Bo/deep & cheap D..might become a deeper, more sustainable contender. Especially with Poolparty types laying in the weeds.

I'm not implying that's "precisely" what it takes at all. Pittsburgh is an easy comparison that shows that it works. Another example could be Washington with Backstrom and Kuznetsov. Perhaps not quite as skilled as Pittsburgh, but up there nevertheless as both centers are considered skilled centers. Washington will likely be a good team for a while even if they got rid of Ovechkin. I would consider them contenders like Pittsburgh. They just haven't been able to get it done in the post-season and is proof on how you can have all the talent in the world, but it all but guarantees cups. lol

 

Again, I bring this up: why would Edmonton trade Drai when there's a model in Pittsburgh that has shown to work? Yes. Everyone brings up Pittsburgh, but it's for good reason. It worked. It's evidence that it worked. You don't have to have it exact as Pittsburgh, but one could argue that the more skill you have down the center, players that make everyone else play better, the easier it will be to find wingers, which is what Pittsburgh did.

 

Could they do it with Horvat? Sure, but at this point, I would argue that it would be easier to do it with Draisatl in my opinion.

[Nuxfanabroad]

8 minutes ago, John McClane said:

Just stepping back a minute. What kind of point totals would BO have had playing behind CM like Leon did last year?

 

would the point totals been about the same as Leon's? 

Would they have been the same as he put up playing behind D&H?

How would Leon do no longer playing behind CD who draws all the other teams best checkers?

 

I don't think Leon possesses the same Captain type qualitys as BO. Can't dismiss those. 

 

The prices proposed seem fair. I just don't know if the overall trade off between the 2 players would put us that much further ahead by making the move. 

 

I'd lean more towards keeping Bo, and being able to afford to surround him with good players. 

This is a good counter-argument for the guys making the big bux(who make such decisions).Edm trolls would label this view as homerish-hallucinatory. In the end, both sides could make arguments for/against.

 

To me, it would need to be set up where Edm benefits immediately, & we get more of a long-term boost. Otherwise, prob wouldn't take the plunge.

[The Lock]

6 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

This is a good counter-argument for the guys making the big bux(who make such decisions).Edm trolls would label this view as homerish-hallucinatory. In the end, both sides could make arguments for/against.

 

To me, it would need to be set up where Edm benefits immediately, & we get more of a long-term boost. Otherwise, prob wouldn't take the plunge.

I think you're right with the 2nd sentence. Unfortunately, thinking about if there was a trade, that would make things even more difficult as both Horvat and Leon are at the start of their careers yet both are players you insert right away and benefit right away in what they're good at respectively.

 

I think for anything to happen, it would have to be almost entirely up to Edmonton and what they wanted now. It would be hard for to really have much of a say as they'd have the big trading pawn in the end.

[Nuxfanabroad]

3 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I'm not implying that's "precisely" what it takes at all. Pittsburgh is an easy comparison that shows that it works. Another example could be Washington with Backstrom and Kuznetsov. Perhaps not quite as skilled as Pittsburgh, but up there nevertheless as both centers are considered skilled centers. Washington will likely be a good team for a while even if they got rid of Ovechkin. I would consider them contenders like Pittsburgh. They just haven't been able to get it done in the post-season and is proof on how you can have all the talent in the world, but it all but guarantees cups. lol

 

Again, I bring this up: why would Edmonton trade Drai when there's a model in Pittsburgh that has shown to work? Yes. Everyone brings up Pittsburgh, but it's for good reason. It worked. It's evidence that it worked. You don't have to have it exact as Pittsburgh, but one could argue that the more skill you have down the center, players that make everyone else play better, the easier it will be to find wingers, which is what Pittsburgh did.

 

Could they do it with Horvat? Sure, but at this point, I would argue that it would be easier to do it with Draisatl in my opinion.

But it's not either/or. With both of them signed, chances are you'd have an additional 3 or 4 million in cap, if you've signed Bo.

 

THEN add Tanev, instead of an injured 5.5 mill LH-D(Sekeras).

 

As I layed out^ above..Edm could probably keep all these pieces intact for at least a half-decade(not fearing offer sheets, say). As for attractive destinations, Edm is not Lemieux's Pen-outfit(lower taxes too). I just don't think they can interchange pieces as easily as a popular(for players) US market. Therefore, their GM might take a different approach.

[bp79]

31 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I'm just going to play the skeptic role and say that Draisatl puts Edmonton very strong down the center, almost like Pittsburgh who have won how many cups now?

 

He's one of those players where if an offer sheet comes at him and you're Edmonton, you pay for it. He's one of those players where players like Horvat need more pieces in order to even think of trading. Even then, a bunch of smaller pieces do not generally make up for what it lost from that one player. Players like Drai do not grow on trees.

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Edmonton declined Horvat, Tanev, and a pick or something along those line, not unless if Drai actually wanted out of Edmonton. which I haven't heard of anything like that.

I think what most people me included, is that the days of having 2 or 3 players making a big chunk of your cap is starting to show its holes. The Hawks have been buying time for the last couple of years. This year they have run out of time, And it cost them Panerin. If Hossa who the league is investigating fails for LTIR. They are really in trouble. As it is they can't afford to find A replacement for him. The Pens shopping Kessel their most productive player 2 years straight in the playoffs.  A defence that unless Matta finds his game along with Pouliot. Both who have been underwhelming All they really have is Letang and Shultz. Sure they pulled it together for the playoffs. 82 games not sure about that Guetzal Who was amazing. someone correct me if im wrong. Did he not play on Crosby's wing? Expecting him to be the 3rd line centre with linemates like Rust and Hagelin big diff. 

Washinton gutted their team to sign their RFA's How many teams had to sacrifice good players or picks not to touch their young controlled players. And my fav in 2019 the streets will bleed blue from leaf fans watching one of the big 3 dealt for prospects worse if PM is still playing.

 

Sure the Oilers can have them both. But in A few years when players leave. And they have to sign lesser players because that's all they can afford Talbot is A UFA in 2 years. Good luck signing him for 4 million. 

I'm not advocating one way or the other. But the Oilers would be smart to listen to offers from other teams. Bo plus Tanev for drai and Sekera or Fayne since the latter has An nmc just happens to be the best fit. Right now bo is top 5 centres under 23 and Tanev plugs up A D that allowed Talbot to be peppered with shots.

 

There may be better deals out there but financially long term this makes sense, This isn't baseball where you can spend 160million. The Bluejays internal cap and worth every penny to watch them in October.

 

Anyways just my thoughts. Cheers have A great day

 

[The Lock]

8 minutes ago, bp79 said:

I think what most people me included, is that the days of having 2 or 3 players making a big chunk of your cap is starting to show its holes. The Hawks have been buying time for the last couple of years. This year they have run out of time, And it cost them Panerin. If Hossa who the league is investigating fails for LTIR. They are really in trouble. As it is they can't afford to find A replacement for him. The Pens shopping Kessel their most productive player 2 years straight in the playoffs.  A defence that unless Matta finds his game along with Pouliot. Both who have been underwhelming All they really have is Letang and Shultz. Sure they pulled it together for the playoffs. 82 games not sure about that Guetzal Who was amazing. someone correct me if im wrong. Did he not play on Crosby's wing? Expecting him to be the 3rd line centre with linemates like Rust and Hagelin big diff. 

Washinton gutted their team to sign their RFA's How many teams had to sacrifice good players or picks not to touch their young controlled players. And my fav in 2019 the streets will bleed blue from leaf fans watching one of the big 3 dealt for prospects worse if PM is still playing.

 

Sure the Oilers can have them both. But in A few years when players leave. And they have to sign lesser players because that's all they can afford Talbot is A UFA in 2 years. Good luck signing him for 4 million. 

I'm not advocating one way or the other. But the Oilers would be smart to listen to offers from other teams. Bo plus Tanev for drai and Sekera or Fayne since the latter has An nmc just happens to be the best fit. Right now bo is top 5 centres under 23 and Tanev plugs up A D that allowed Talbot to be peppered with shots.

 

There may be better deals out there but financially long term this makes sense, This isn't baseball where you can spend 160million. The Bluejays internal cap and worth every penny to watch them in October.

 

Anyways just my thoughts. Cheers have A great day

 

One thing I want to point out: with Chicago, yes they lost Panarin, but not after already having both Kane and Toews signed. Draisatl would more likely be considered one of those 2 players as opposed to Panarin, the odd man out in the end. It really depends on who you're looking at. Still, Chicago's another team who have won cups. I forget where I heard it, but recently I heard an interview where a player essentially said "you have to pay your top players what they want. The rest of the locker room will understand that and adjust accordingly."

 

I think every team with players like Crosby and McDavid will ultimately have to sacrifice things. However, the pattern I also have seen is that each of these teams keep 2 top players at all times. My prediction really is that McDavid will (obviously) be one of those 2 players. Draisatl will be the other. After that, we will likely see players coming and going in the Edmonton lineup. The "sacrifices" that you mentioned will be the ones outside of McD and Drai.

[Rob_Zepp]

2 minutes ago, The Lock said:

One thing I want to point out: with Chicago, yes they lost Panarin, but not after already having both Kane and Toews signed. Draisatl would more likely be considered one of those 2 players as opposed to Panarin, the odd man out in the end. It really depends on who you're looking at. Still, Chicago's another team who have won cups. I forget where I heard it, but recently I heard an interview where a player essentially said "you have to pay your top players what they want. The rest of the locker room will understand that and adjust accordingly."

 

 

Unless you heard the quote from a soon to be finished in NHL veteran who has their retirement socked away or it was one of the "top players", I highly doubt a rank and file player would ever say that they would "adjust accordingly".   This is their job, their livelihood and their security for their family.  Yes, they like to win but if they are in for an average length career with average earnings, they are not about to forgo some of that security so some superstar can buy another house or small country.   

 

2 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

I think every team with players like Crosby and McDavid will ultimately have to sacrifice things. However, the pattern I also have seen is that each of these teams keep 2 top players at all times. My prediction really is that McDavid will (obviously) be one of those 2 players. Draisatl will be the other. After that, we will likely see players coming and going in the Edmonton lineup. The "sacrifices" that you mentioned will be the ones outside of McD and Drai.

What about the Lucic long-term deal with NMC?   Not chump change to be considered not "one of the two top" is it?   CAP stays flat for a year or three I doubt it will be as easy as you make it sound for Edmonton to have a cohesive/competitive team if they need to fit in something like $24 million a year on three players.

[Dixon Ward]

1 hour ago, Toews said:

Both Crosby and Malkin took up just as high a % of the cap as McDavid and Draisatl likely will. The Oilers can and will keep both and try and build around those two down the middle. I am not sure why people keep overvaluing depth, you pay your stars whatever they are worth in order to keep them. Letting go of Draisatl so that you can sign the likes of Ladd/Eriksson/Lucic/Okposo for "depth" is foolish. Top talent is extremely hard to acquire in the NHL you can find depth in the draft like Pittsburgh and Tampa have done. 

I agree, if anything they will try to move RNH to make cap space.  Not Draisatl.  RNH is better than a 3rd line centre and is paid better.  They should trade him to MTL for something and get their space back.

 

Besides I think we could get a better return for Horvat and Tanev than 1 very good centre.  I believe that this year Horvat, if given some time on the pp will be in the top 20 centres in the league and he brings a great deal of intangibles.  Drai had 100 minutes more on the pp than Horvat and played on the top unit with the Hart Trophy winner.  Horvat was on the 2nd unit for the Canucks.  Take away Draisatl's pp time with McDavid and make him play centre against the other teams top line and as many defensive zone faceoffs as Horvat did, instead of riding shotgun on the wing for one of the best players we have ever seen.  Then see the points difference shrink significantly.  Don't get me wrong, Draisatl is awesome and probably better than Horvat, but not Horvat+Tanev better, not even close imho.  Patrick Maroon got 27 goals playing with the McDavid show.  His previous high was 12 in a season and that included playing with Getzlaf.

 

Tanev is one of the top 5 shut down defensemen in the league and shoots right.  I think these 2 are worth more than Draisatl at this point.

[The Lock]

11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Unless you heard the quote from a soon to be finished in NHL veteran who has their retirement socked away or it was one of the "top players", I highly doubt a rank and file player would ever say that they would "adjust accordingly".   This is their job, their livelihood and their security for their family.  Yes, they like to win but if they are in for an average length career with average earnings, they are not about to forgo some of that security so some superstar can buy another house or small country.   

 

What about the Lucic long-term deal with NMC?   Not chump change to be considered not "one of the two top" is it?   CAP stays flat for a year or three I doubt it will be as easy as you make it sound for Edmonton to have a cohesive/competitive team if they need to fit in something like $24 million a year on three players.

Well I'm not going by exact words in the quote. I think it was from an Edmonton interview after McDavid was signed, perhaps on nhl.com or something. I just know I heard it there. Probably depends on each player in the end mind you, but he did pretty much say that you need to pay your top players and the sacrifices should come from the players surrounding that top player. I could try and find the link to that interview if you really don't trust me.

 

Think of the Lucic deal as like with Hossa. Hossa wasn't considered one of the "top 2" either. However, it worked. Another example could be Kessel in Pittsburgh. Heavy contract, but it still worked. To even further my point, the cap stayed flat for a period of time during these contracts as well with the year before and after their recent bargaining agreement. Again, both teams remained competitive and won cups before and after that time.

[Rob_Zepp]

3 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Well I'm not going by exact words in the quote. I think it was from an Edmonton interview after McDavid was signed, perhaps on nhl.com or something. I just know I heard it there. Probably depends on each player in the end mind you, but he did pretty much say that you need to pay your top players and the sacrifices should come from the players surrounding that top player. I could try and find the link to that interview if you really don't trust me.

 

Think of the Lucic deal as like with Hossa. Hossa wasn't considered one of the "top 2" either. However, it worked. Another example could be Kessel in Pittsburgh. Heavy contract, but it still worked. To even further my point, the cap stayed flat for a period of time during these contracts as well with the year before and after their recent bargaining agreement. Again, both teams remained competitive and won cups before and after that time.

Don't say I don't trust you, saying is I doubt a player who isn't either already set for life OR one of the top players wouldn't likely think that way.   This is a business.    

 

You bring up Kessel - they are struggling to keep him and fit in the CAP right now.   And CAP has gone up each year since it was imposed - first time coming likely where that won't be the case. 

[Rob_Zepp]

15 minutes ago, Dixon Ward said:

I agree, if anything they will try to move RNH to make cap space.  Not Draisatl.  RNH is better than a 3rd line centre and is paid better.  They should trade him to MTL for something and get their space back.

 

Besides I think we could get a better return for Horvat and Tanev than 1 very good centre.  I believe that this year Horvat, if given some time on the pp will be in the top 20 centres in the league and he brings a great deal of intangibles.  Drai had 100 minutes more on the pp than Horvat and played on the top unit with the Hart Trophy winner.  Horvat was on the 2nd unit for the Canucks.  Take away Draisatl's pp time with McDavid and make him play centre against the other teams top line and as many defensive zone faceoffs as Horvat did, instead of riding shotgun on the wing for one of the best players we have ever seen.  Then see the points difference shrink significantly.  Don't get me wrong, Draisatl is awesome and probably better than Horvat, but not Horvat+Tanev better, not even close imho.  Patrick Maroon got 27 goals playing with the McDavid show.  His previous high was 12 in a season and that included playing with Getzlaf.

 

Tanev is one of the top 5 shut down defensemen in the league and shoots right.  I think these 2 are worth more than Draisatl at this point.

LD had 50 5x5 points with about 19 mins a game and BH had 42 5x5 points with 18 mins a game.   Not that dramatically different.   For reference, Toews had 41 5x5 points (one fewer than BH), Kopitar 33 (9 fewer) and Thornton 31 (11 fewer) just to name a few who people would consider in that "top 20".   

[The Lock]

Just now, Rob_Zepp said:

Don't say I don't trust you, saying is I doubt a player who isn't either already set for life OR one of the top players wouldn't likely think that way.   This is a business.    

 

You bring up Kessel - they are struggling to keep him and fit in the CAP right now.   And CAP has gone up each year since it was imposed - first time coming likely where that won't be the case. 

Right now they're having trouble keeping Kessel. Sure, but they've still won 2 cups with him. I would imagine Edmonton could struggle to keep Lucic eventually, but I bet Edmonton would prefer to struggle keeping Lucic than to struggle keeping Draisatl, who's already put up more points in a season as a 21 year old than Lucic ever has (of course Lucic can do other things but hopefully you get what I'm saying). 

 

This is what I mean by keeping your top 2 players and the rest you have to kind of work around and fiddle with. It's the cap era afterall. However, considering the cups these teams win, they have to be doing something right.

[Rob_Zepp]

9 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Right now they're having trouble keeping Kessel. Sure, but they've still won 2 cups with him. I would imagine Edmonton could struggle to keep Lucic eventually, but I bet Edmonton would prefer to struggle keeping Lucic than to struggle keeping Draisatl, who's already put up more points in a season as a 21 year old than Lucic ever has (of course Lucic can do other things but hopefully you get what I'm saying). 

 

This is what I mean by keeping your top 2 players and the rest you have to kind of work around and fiddle with. It's the cap era afterall. However, considering the cups these teams win, they have to be doing something right.

Not disagreeing on keeping your best players, just not sure that paying them pretty much whatever they want won't bite hard.   While Chicago and Pittsburgh had some recent success, I think it is going to be tough slogging for both with contracts ala Washington.  Edmonton will be in there and Toronto is a season or two away as well.  

 

It is simply a complexity of the CAP era and having great players is a nice problem to have but paying them too much can be a real problem.   LD isn't Geno or Kane - paying him like he is while you have RHN and Lucic on the books will hurt more than help.

[bp79]

27 minutes ago, Dixon Ward said:

I agree, if anything they will try to move RNH to make cap space.  Not Draisatl.  RNH is better than a 3rd line centre and is paid better.  They should trade him to MTL for something and get their space back.

 

Besides I think we could get a better return for Horvat and Tanev than 1 very good centre.  I believe that this year Horvat, if given some time on the pp will be in the top 20 centres in the league and he brings a great deal of intangibles.  Drai had 100 minutes more on the pp than Horvat and played on the top unit with the Hart Trophy winner.  Horvat was on the 2nd unit for the Canucks.  Take away Draisatl's pp time with McDavid and make him play centre against the other teams top line and as many defensive zone faceoffs as Horvat did, instead of riding shotgun on the wing for one of the best players we have ever seen.  Then see the points difference shrink significantly.  Don't get me wrong, Draisatl is awesome and probably better than Horvat, but not Horvat+Tanev better, not even close imho.  Patrick Maroon got 27 goals playing with the McDavid show.  His previous high was 12 in a season and that included playing with Getzlaf.

 

Tanev is one of the top 5 shut down defensemen in the league and shoots right.  I think these 2 are worth more than Draisatl at this point.

That is the other side of the coin. I haven't really checked. But im sure Dra got most of his points playing wing. Which is y wherever he signs might be wary of that and ask him to sign A short deal and play him only as a centre. That was my one point I had made earlier. When people were talking 10 mill for him and I brought up Anson Carter who got 20 with the twins, only to take his jumbo sized helmet and never be heard from again. lol. 

In my first post in this thread, I did mention that the only reason I even thought about was if Petterson and Gaudette become what they both seem determined to do. my thinking was well Bo and those guys aren't wingers, well we know that Drai could be. And if those 2 became are 1 and 2 Where would that leave Bo?

 

 Tho I totally agree Bo is A stud and with increased pp time and maybe A guy like Brock or Erickson or goldy. His assists should go way up as well.

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Not disagreeing on keeping your best players, just not sure that paying them pretty much whatever they want won't bite hard.   While Chicago and Pittsburgh had some recent success, I think it is going to be tough slogging for both with contracts ala Washington.  Edmonton will be in there and Toronto is a season or two away as well.  

 

It is simply a complexity of the CAP era and having great players is a nice problem to have but paying them too much can be a real problem.   LD isn't Geno or Kane - paying him like he is while you have RHN and Lucic on the books will hurt more than help.

Well, don't get me wrong. There obviously has to be some sort of "within reason" point when it comes to how much it too much.

 

I think this is also why we have agencies, etc, because they understand a player's value. They might highball of course (because why wouldn't you in negotiations), but ultimately there's going to be a goal in terms of what a player wants through the guidance of that agency, and I stress the word "guidance" because it's amazing how having someone with expertise can help in giving you a more realistic idea on what you're worth.

 

Ultimately, I don't think people are "stupid" when it comes to these kinds of things, at least not when you have multiple people involved in each transaction these days. McD probably could have got the league maximum if he wanted. He could have left Edmonton hanging and begging and pleading. However, he didn't.

 

While it's pretty apparent Drai's a slightly different situation (ie. he's actually RFA this offseason unlike McD), I'd find it hard to believe Drai would go absolutely crazy in what he's ultimately asking for in the end. I could be surprised in the end perhaps, but I guess we'll see. lol

[PunjabiCanucks]

Maybe this is why its taking so long for both to sign  But I have thought of this as myself  and it works for both teams. EDM simply wont do this tho not to cap constraints but because it makes us better