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Gilman with the best Horvat insight yet

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6 hours ago, xereau said:

Trevor Linden

ok. almost all the examples so far outside of Dustin Brown are from the pre salary cap era. hmmm.

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19 hours ago, lmm said:

Did you just compare the Canucks with the best team in hockey over the last 9 years?

The team with one coach and 3 Cups in the last 9 years?

The team with a coach considered by some to be the closest thing to Scotty Bowman in the current era?

The team that upgraded their GM before their first cup and now has Son-of-Scotty Bowman running the show?

The team that is legitimately a destination clup that can and does sign aging stars like Brad Richards and Brian Campbell for cheap to play down the line up, because they believe that team has a good chance of winning another Cup?

The team that stank for years while their old owner clenched their purse strings but became elite after Son-of-Dollar Bill took over and handed the running of the club to competent Hockey staff?

The team with one untradable contract (Hossa) signed by their departed GM?

The team that is in a constant state of "Retool" , but can win a Cup in a retool season?

 

How do the Canucks stack up against Chicago on any of these points?

 

I'll go along with you on one point, Chicago is a perfect example.

But it is a perfect example of how to retool, but that is not even what this thread is about.

chicago fan?

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5 hours ago, groovy said:

Kopitar is the captain of the Kings.

Yup, stand corrected....will update my database.   Kopitar is captain as of last season, DBrown was for the 8 or so years and during their cup runs and was not ever really a first line player.

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reminds me of Lindros.

I love Bo, but he is no Lindros!  I was at a game (at the height of Lindros' career), sitting maybe three rows back in one of the corners - and Lindros came in on the forecheck and flattened our guy against the boards.  And, it was one of the most scary things I've ever seen.  Lindros just destroyed our giant d-man like he was a rag-doll.  Perfectly legal.  Then, he just stood over him with a determined (and scary as hell) look on his face.  Just stared him down, while the guy was lying flat on his ass seeing stars.  This was like 20 years ago now, and I still remember that (meaningless) hit.  It was insane.  Lindros was playing the game on a much higher level than our team.  Physically, he was just dominant.  He changed the game.  And, he had offensive talent too.  He was a scary player.  Well, for a few years in the late-90's anyways...

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"A player cut from the same mold as Patrice Bergeron and Jonathan Toewes without prolific offence."

 

Bergeron and Toewes are more like 25G-35G 65-80P players. Gilman says that the assessment on Horvat was that he will become a consistent 20G 50P player at some point in his career, just not this early in his development curve. With Bo being on an accelerated trajectory, which is probably due to his improved skating, I think the prolific offence will come, especially if he plays with a talented winger. The next season will give us an accurate indication of what Horvat will be.

 

If I'm Horvat, I would actually go for a 2 year bridge deal or a 6 year deal. 2 year bridge deal to prove that you are in the same mold as Bergeron and Toewes, then go for 8 years 7-8 mil contract. 6 year contract at around 5.5 gives you a chance to hit another big contract when you are 28. 

 

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1 hour ago, khay said:

"A player cut from the same mold as Patrice Bergeron and Jonathan Toewes without prolific offence."

 

Bergeron and Toewes are more like 25G-35G 65-80P players. Gilman says that the assessment on Horvat was that he will become a consistent 20G 50P player at some point in his career, just not this early in his development curve. With Bo being on an accelerated trajectory, which is probably due to his improved skating, I think the prolific offence will come, especially if he plays with a talented winger. The next season will give us an accurate indication of what Horvat will be.

 

If I'm Horvat, I would actually go for a 2 year bridge deal or a 6 year deal. 2 year bridge deal to prove that you are in the same mold as Bergeron and Toewes, then go for 8 years 7-8 mil contract. 6 year contract at around 5.5 gives you a chance to hit another big contract when you are 28. 

 

So, why the bias against Horvat?   

 

Bergeron last year - 79 GP  and had 21 goals and 53 points of which 36 were at 5x5 (17 PP points) and averaged 19:25 ice time

 

Toews last year - 72 GP and had 21 goals and 58 points of which 41 were at 5x5 (also had 17 PP points) and averaged 20:09 per game

 

Horvat last year - 81 GP and had 20 goals and 52 points of which 42 were 5x5 (10 PP points) and averaged 18:01 per game

 

Horvat outscored both 5x5, produced as good or better on points per 60 in spite of limited PP time and he played with lesser players in terms of incidental points.    Why the "without offence" comment when he is at same level as them?

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On 8/3/2017 at 11:43 AM, bobbyg43 said:

If Jim can lock up a 30 year old UFA for 6x6 money I see no compelling reason to not add 2 to make it 8 years for a 22 year old Bo a  bonified two way player.

money management at its best with the current executive group. 

I hope they nail this contract.Either way it will be good 6 years or 8 .

I kind of think if Gilman was still here this would be done now?

Bo is constantly improving and still has things to work as he himself stated so with 4.5-5-5.5 over the first 3 years and see how it goes from there, just how "elite" will a mature Bo be? Well only time will tell but why pay something crazy until it's known for sure?  

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4 hours ago, bloodycanuckleheads said:

I love Bo, but he is no Lindros!  I was at a game (at the height of Lindros' career), sitting maybe three rows back in one of the corners - and Lindros came in on the forecheck and flattened our guy against the boards.  And, it was one of the most scary things I've ever seen.  Lindros just destroyed our giant d-man like he was a rag-doll.  Perfectly legal.  Then, he just stood over him with a determined (and scary as hell) look on his face.  Just stared him down, while the guy was lying flat on his ass seeing stars.  This was like 20 years ago now, and I still remember that (meaningless) hit.  It was insane.  Lindros was playing the game on a much higher level than our team.  Physically, he was just dominant.  He changed the game.  And, he had offensive talent too.  He was a scary player.  Well, for a few years in the late-90's anyways...

Before Stevens crushed him he was probably the best player in the world for three or four years.  Scary good.  The only guy he couldn't rag doll was Babych, and even he had a tough time with him ( but at least he was strong enough to hold on).  Sad his career was smeared from the get go, and he went through his tough time with Clark.  And that his concussions shortened what could have been a top ten career. 

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2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

So, why the bias against Horvat?   

 

Bergeron last year - 79 GP  and had 21 goals and 53 points of which 36 were at 5x5 (17 PP points) and averaged 19:25 ice time

 

Toews last year - 72 GP and had 21 goals and 58 points of which 41 were at 5x5 (also had 17 PP points) and averaged 20:09 per game

 

Horvat last year - 81 GP and had 20 goals and 52 points of which 42 were 5x5 (10 PP points) and averaged 18:01 per game

 

Horvat outscored both 5x5, produced as good or better on points per 60 in spite of limited PP time and he played with lesser players in terms of incidental points.    Why the "without offence" comment when he is at same level as them?

Good points.  Toews and Bergeron are also always assigned to the other teams top lines, so like Horvat they aren't getting the juiciest offensive zone starts, rather just as often put out to regain possession and or get the puck out of their own zones.  Perrenial Selke candidates, with Bergeron likely to win more than the guy who had most to do with the trophies creation in the first place ( Gainey would have easily won three or four more if the Selke was available early on in his career).

 

Don't think Horvat has the same influence on the game as these guys yet, but he sure doesn't have to improve much to be in the conversation either.  He's definitely our best next piece, and think before his next contract is done he will be the guy new guys are compared to.  The brightest light ( honourable mention to Boeser) in an otherwise forgettable season.

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4 hours ago, khay said:

"A player cut from the same mold as Patrice Bergeron and Jonathan Toewes without prolific offence."

 

Bergeron and Toewes are more like 25G-35G 65-80P players. Gilman says that the assessment on Horvat was that he will become a consistent 20G 50P player at some point in his career, just not this early in his development curve. With Bo being on an accelerated trajectory, which is probably due to his improved skating, I think the prolific offence will come, especially if he plays with a talented winger. The next season will give us an accurate indication of what Horvat will be.

 

If I'm Horvat, I would actually go for a 2 year bridge deal or a 6 year deal. 2 year bridge deal to prove that you are in the same mold as Bergeron and Toewes, then go for 8 years 7-8 mil contract. 6 year contract at around 5.5 gives you a chance to hit another big contract when you are 28. 

 

Regarding the last paragraph that makes a whole lot of sense.  I think term may be stalling the process, with both sides haggling to make things work.  If I was Horvat I would likely be working a deal that expires as soon as he's made the requirements to become a UFA.  Then depending on how things are progressing possibly jumping ship and going back East.  Just a hunch, no data to really support it and hopefully like Stamkos he will take a discount to stay on and not play where every Ontario kid outside of Ottawa dreams of playing for....but first of all let's get this done already..every day fingers crossed.

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6 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

chicago fan?

Trolling, or just having trouble keeping up with the conversation?

 

You brought up Chicago, and I showed some ways I do not believe the Canucks stack up.

I gave you an opportunity to make a  favorable comparison, and that's the best you got?

Troll on.

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3 hours ago, lmm said:

Trolling, or just having trouble keeping up with the conversation?

 

You brought up Chicago, and I showed some ways I do not believe the Canucks stack up.

I gave you an opportunity to make a  favorable comparison, and that's the best you got?

Troll on.

just having fun. You lost it a bit there. Benning is trying to build an organization like Chicago, its going to take time and many more years but he's doing it right imo. 

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5 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

just having fun. You lost it a bit there. Benning is trying to build an organization like Chicago, its going to take time and many more years but he's doing it right imo. 

how do the Canucks resemble the Hawks?

 

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2 minutes ago, lmm said:

how do the Canucks resemble the Hawks?

 

similar things to their rebuilding phase... go back to 2005/6-ish for the comparison to make sense for you. 

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33 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

similar things to their rebuilding phase... go back to 2005/6-ish for the comparison to make sense for you. 

that is not an answer

At least I give you something to work with.

Try making a statement with substance.

try matching the statements I made earlier if you can't make up your own.

It is really no fun swapping one liners given without thought.

ciao

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On 2017-08-03 at 2:46 PM, TNucks1 said:

what about all the outrageous contracts Mike Gillis handed out, LG was there for them.

We had sedins getting 100 points with a cap hit of only 6.1 each

we had kesler winning a selke and scoring 41 goals with a cap hit of 5 million

we had burrows scoring 30 goals with a cap hit of 2 million and then 4 million

we had luongo, one of the best goalies in the league with a cap hit around 5.3(I don't care about the salary he's making all I care about is the cap hit)

we had dan hamhuis our best d man at 4.6 million

bieksa as well was 4.6 I believe 

 

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On 8/3/2017 at 2:45 PM, N7Nucks said:

While we had all those Gilman/Gillis contracts all people could do is complain, now people love them. Flip flop continues here. Are we or are we against Gilman/Gillis contracts? Those deals came with NTCs. Things some people love to complain about.

I know, bizarre. Is this an entirely new group of fans? I can't believe what I'm reading.

 

And just forget about your 5's and 8's for Bo, NO WAY he signs long term for ANYTHING under 6.5

 

If it's a bridge it will be 5.5, then in two years, it will be 7.5 long term

 

Why Bening is playing hardball with the one guy who should be handed the blanc check is beyond me, only a year ago L.E got his free trip to the candy store, then promptly quit hockey. Bo is the only truly bright spot this team has.....he IS the Canucks right now

 

What is the matter with Benning? Is Keenan his hero or something?

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2 minutes ago, terrible.dee said:

I know, bizarre. Is this an entirely new group of fans? I can't believe what I'm reading.

 

And just forget about your 5's and 8's for Bo, NO WAY he signs long term for ANYTHING under 6.5

 

If it's a bridge it will be 5.5, then in two years, it will be 7.5 long term

 

Why Bening is playing hardball with the one guy who should be handed the blanc check is beyond me, only a year ago L.E got his free trip to the candy store, then promptly quit hockey. Bo is the only truly bright spot this team has.....he IS the Canucks right now

 

What is the matter with Benning? Is Keenan his hero or something?    

Uh, how do you know there is any "hardball" being played?   You have some inside information?   

 

You don't have a clue, nor does anyone else (including me) in this thread as to the nature of the negotiation.   Chances are they are waiting for a few other RFAs to sign that one/both sides feel is the true barometer or it could be vacation schedules of Hornet's agent didn't mesh with availability of Canuck staff - believe it is or not, that happens more than people realize.    

 

Pretty sure that Canuck management have a good idea what the player is worth to their team and pretty good idea Bo Hornet's agent has a pretty good idea what his client is worth.   The season starts in October.    This happens with RFAs all the time.   

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5 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

just having fun. You lost it a bit there. Benning is trying to build an organization like Chicago, its going to take time and many more years but he's doing it right imo. 

And how's that?

 

What specifically is Benning doing that you would consider to be "right"?

 

Is it the "No BPA period" draft strategy? The Veteran F.A signings who have either thrown tantrums (Vbrata, ) or tantrums via trade (Prust) quit hockey but not the team (Erickson) how about the patented "Top money for the bottom pairing, 6, players? (Sbisa, Sutter, Dorsett) is it the Grandlund mirage? (How many years have the Sedins padded other players stats? but THIS time it was different?) Or the fabled Baer in woods come out of hibernation for less than 20 goals, but still solidly set in our top 6? And finally the ever effective "Don't pay your best player after giving scrubs the keys to the safe" technique? Oh, then my personal fave "Don't scout a player AT ALL, just draft him because he's big and figure it out later" approach (Trym) or is it the "Get conned by Dale Tallon and give up a first and second for a D-man that was artificially hyped by the media outlets Dale controlled but actually isn't an NHL player (To be fair McCann NEEDED to go...but he should never have been drafted, once again, he was NOT scouted properly, it was known prior to the draft his personality was.....an acquired taste) God, I'm out of breath, and the sad thing is..I could go on and on....

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7 minutes ago, terrible.dee said:

And how's that?

 

What specifically is Benning doing that you would consider to be "right"?

 

Is it the "No BPA period" draft strategy? The Veteran F.A signings who have either thrown tantrums (Vbrata, ) or tantrums via trade (Prust) quit hockey but not the team (Erickson) how about the patented "Top money for the bottom pairing, 6, players? (Sbisa, Sutter, Dorsett) is it the Grandlund mirage? (How many years have the Sedins padded other players stats? but THIS time it was different?) Or the fabled Baer in woods come out of hibernation for less than 20 goals, but still solidly set in our top 6? And finally the ever effective "Don't pay your best player after giving scrubs the keys to the safe" technique? Oh, then my personal fave "Don't scout a player AT ALL, just draft him because he's big and figure it out later" approach (Trym) or is it the "Get conned by Dale Tallon and give up a first and second for a D-man that was artificially hyped by the media outlets Dale controlled but actually isn't an NHL player (To be fair McCann NEEDED to go...but he should never have been drafted, once again, he was NOT scouted properly, it was known prior to the draft his personality was.....an acquired taste) God, I'm out of breath, and the sad thing is..I could go on and on....

uhy.gif

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