[Proposal] Signing a vet to help groom our youngsters

[apollo]

As it stands, the Canucks are rebuilding and should hope to give as many roster spots to youngsters to develop their game... right?

(This seems to be the popular opinion from what I read on the forums... not everyone's opinion, just the popular one)

 

In 2007-2008 the Canucks finished last in the division... devastated fan base had no idea what was yet to come... an era of pummeling that same division and sheer dominance, cementing them as the greatest dynasty to ever play in the Northwest Division... banner after banner...  

 

What did they do in that summer? Offer an outrageous contract to veteran Mats Sundin (who I believe was 38 at the time)... and we all know how long it took for the contract to be signed, but eventually Mats did play for us and was a huge mentor for our players...  that team only had 5 regular skaters over the age of 30. Bolded were not impact players

 

13	Mats Sundin	se	C	37	6-5	231	R/-	17	February 13, 1971	9 G, 19 A, 28 P
38	Pavol Demitra	cs	C	34	6-0	200	L/-	14	November 29, 1974	20 G, 33 A, 53 P
6	Sami Salo	fi	D	34	6-3	215	R/-	9	September 2, 1974	5 G, 20 A, 25 P
27	Jason Krog	ca	C	33	5-11	185	R/-	6	October 9, 1975	1 G, 0 A, 1 P
10	Ryan Johnson	ca	C	32	6-1	199	L/-	10	June 14, 1976	2 G, 7 A, 9 P (can argue he was an impact guy too)
2	Mattias Ohlund	se	D	32	6-4	233	L/-	10	September 9, 1976	6 G, 19 A, 25 P
8	Willie Mitchell	ca	D	31	6-3	210	L/-	8	April 23, 1977	3 G, 20 A, 23 P

 

 

Now fast forward to 2017... nearly a decade of dominating the NHL (minus 3 years)... once the best team in the league, has now become a laughing stock. Finishing 2nd last overall and clearly rebuilding after 3/4 horrendous years. 

 

The team is projected to start with many players in their early 20's and only has a few veteran presences on the team and sits with only 5 veterans... only 2 of which are over 32 years old and are arguably the greatest to ever play for the glorious franchise. 

 

2	Daniel Sedin	se	LW	37	6-1	190		16	September 26, 1980		$7,000,000
33	Henrik Sedin	se	C	37	6-2	183		16	September 26, 1980		$7,000,000
21	Loui Eriksson	se	LW	32	6-2	196		11	July 17, 1985		$8,000,000
15	Derek Dorsett	ca	RW	31	6-0	192		9	December 20, 1986		$2,500,000
23	Alexander Edler	se	D	31	6-3	214		11	April 21, 1986		$6,000,000

 

While Loui, Dors and Edler are good mentors, it simply is not enough. Lets not forget... that Henrik and Daniel were only 28 and Burr / Juice 27 when the Canucks brought over Sundin. Same age as Sutter, Gagner, Tanev, & Markstrom are today. Not to mention all the guys in their early 20's on the 2017 roster which will be impacted like Kesler, Edler, Hansen, Schneider, were. 

 

So what I'm trying to get at with 50% facts / 50% homer ramblings is that we should go after a veteran presence. We've got an incredibly young roster and we need mentor ship. The Sedins are as elite as it gets, but another voice won't do anything but help our youngsters. 

 

Possible Options... would you offer any contracts?  

• Jaromir Jagr... he would be the jackpot but perhaps can't handle the travel of Vancouver? He certainly knows what a great city it would be in to play. At 45 and coming off a 46 point season, he's the prize to be had. 
• Shane Doan... can bring less on the ice than JJ but you can argue he has as good if not better character than JJ. 
• Jarome Iginla... also scored 27 points like Doan... his impact would be incredible. Especially for Brock / Bo / Jake 
• Mike Ribeiro... at 37 he's... hahah jk. Great on ice skills though, I wouldn't be opposed to a 1 year deal. Probably the last character you'd want near our young guys. 
• Chris Kelly... if all fails, he could be a great character guy. Even on a 2 way deal to play in Utica? Maybe give him $800k NHL salary and $300k AHL? 
• Francois Beauchemin... not much space on D but we have so many young dman... it could help? probably not a fit since we have 0 space on D though
• Hudler or Vanek... 33 year olds... youngest of the bunch but both could provide an offensive spark and some leadership? I'd prefer Vanek.

 

 

[Cramarossa]

Jagr: Yes

Doan: Yes

Iginla: Yes

Ribeiro: Absolutely not, no. That's bad, you should feel bad

Those other guys: Meh

[nux_win]

10 minutes ago, apollo said:

As it stands, the Canucks are rebuilding and should hope to give as many roster spots to youngsters to develop their game... right?

(This seems to be the popular opinion from what I read on the forums... not everyone's opinion, just the popular one)

 

In 2007-2008 the Canucks finished last in the division... devastated fan base had no idea what was yet to come... an era of pummeling that same division and sheer dominance, cementing them as the greatest dynasty to ever play in the Northwest Division... banner after banner...  

 

What did they do in that summer? Offer an outrageous contract to veteran Mats Sundin (who I believe was 38 at the time)... and we all know how long it took for the contract to be signed, but eventually Mats did play for us and was a huge mentor for our players...  that team only had 5 regular skaters over the age of 30. Bolded were not impact players

 

13	Mats Sundin	se	C	37	6-5	231	R/-	17	February 13, 1971	9 G, 19 A, 28 P
38	Pavol Demitra	cs	C	34	6-0	200	L/-	14	November 29, 1974	20 G, 33 A, 53 P
6	Sami Salo	fi	D	34	6-3	215	R/-	9	September 2, 1974	5 G, 20 A, 25 P
27	Jason Krog	ca	C	33	5-11	185	R/-	6	October 9, 1975	1 G, 0 A, 1 P
10	Ryan Johnson	ca	C	32	6-1	199	L/-	10	June 14, 1976	2 G, 7 A, 9 P (can argue he was an impact guy too)
2	Mattias Ohlund	se	D	32	6-4	233	L/-	10	September 9, 1976	6 G, 19 A, 25 P
8	Willie Mitchell	ca	D	31	6-3	210	L/-	8	April 23, 1977	3 G, 20 A, 23 P

 

 

Now fast forward to 2017... nearly a decade of dominating the NHL (minus 3 years)... once the best team in the league, has now become a laughing stock. Finishing 2nd last overall and clearly rebuilding after 3/4 horrendous years. 

 

The team is projected to start with many players in their early 20's and only has a few veteran presences on the team and sits with only 5 veterans... only 2 of which are over 32 years old and are arguably the greatest to ever play for the glorious franchise. 

 

2	Daniel Sedin	se	LW	37	6-1	190		16	September 26, 1980		$7,000,000
33	Henrik Sedin	se	C	37	6-2	183		16	September 26, 1980		$7,000,000
21	Loui Eriksson	se	LW	32	6-2	196		11	July 17, 1985		$8,000,000
15	Derek Dorsett	ca	RW	31	6-0	192		9	December 20, 1986		$2,500,000
23	Alexander Edler	se	D	31	6-3	214		11	April 21, 1986		$6,000,000

 

While Loui, Dors and Edler are good mentors, it simply is not enough. Lets not forget... that Henrik and Daniel were only 28 and Burr / Juice 27 when the Canucks brought over Sundin. Same age as Sutter, Gagner, Tanev, & Markstrom are today. Not to mention all the guys in their early 20's on the 2017 roster which will be impacted like Kesler, Edler, Hansen, Schneider, were. 

 

So what I'm trying to get at with 50% facts / 50% homer ramblings is that we should go after a veteran presence. We've got an incredibly young roster and we need mentor ship. The Sedins are as elite as it gets, but another voice won't do anything but help our youngsters. 

 

Possible Options... would you offer any contracts?  

• Jaromir Jagr... he would be the jackpot but perhaps can't handle the travel of Vancouver? He certainly knows what a great city it would be in to play. At 45 and coming off a 46 point season, he's the prize to be had. 
• Shane Doan... can bring less on the ice than JJ but you can argue he has as good if not better character than JJ. 
• Jarome Iginla... also scored 27 points like Doan... his impact would be incredible. Especially for Brock / Bo / Jake 
• Mike Ribeiro... at 37 he's... hahah jk. Great on ice skills though, I wouldn't be opposed to a 1 year deal. Probably the last character you'd want near our young guys. 
• Chris Kelly... if all fails, he could be a great character guy. Even on a 2 way deal to play in Utica? Maybe give him $800k NHL salary and $300k AHL? 
• Francois Beauchemin... not much space on D but we have so many young dman... it could help? probably not a fit since we have 0 space on D though
• Hudler or Vanek... 33 year olds... youngest of the bunch but both could provide an offensive spark and some leadership? I'd prefer Vanek.

 

 

I think that Benning has done a good job of not only stocking our cupboards with prospects but also bringing in a few extra NHL caliber players to compete for roster spots.  I think that that is the key (competition for jobs and not allowing any free rides) rather than just bringing in vets past their prime just for the sake of it.  Let's not forget the free agents that we just signed (Gagner, Burmistrov, Del Zotto, Wiercioch, and Nilsson).  None of them are big names but they are all solid NHL players.  If the young guys can take jobs away from them then fine, but if not we have some players ready to go.  With those, and the Sedins (what more do we need for veteran leadership?), I don't think that we need to bring in more veterans just for the sake of it.  I think that it is always good to have competition for jobs (and so I wouldn't say "no" to a PTO or another UFA) but I think that we already have plenty of healthy competition for jobs.  GCG!

[HerrDrFunk]

I would sign Jagr to a one year deal just to add another guy to the traveling Jagrs. I think we're pretty set for veteran leadership going into this season though.

[JM_]

None of them unless you're buying out Dorsett. Tanev, Gagner and even Del Z and Gudbranson bring some form of veteran presence and/or leadership. 

[Fateless]

I don't think taking another spot away from a young player to give it to an aged veteran to provide leadership is actually what this team needs.

 

I agree that leadership is important and that veterans can help mentor young players, but our forward line-up is already going to be quite full and if we give another spot to a veteran, that essentially bumps someone like Boeser down to the AHL where they won't benefit from that leadership anyways.

 

So my position is stand pat. Sign Bo. Let the kids develop with the mentors and leaders we have. We likely finish near the bottom again next year, we go all-in in the draft to take a player at the top of the draft that has a high likelihood of being a franchise player (we trade up if we lose in the draft lottery again), and next year we focus on returning to the playoffs.

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, Fateless said:

I don't think taking another spot away from a young player to give it to an aged veteran to provide leadership is actually what this team needs.

 

I agree that leadership is important and that veterans can help mentor young players, but our forward line-up is already going to be quite full and if we give another spot to a veteran, that essentially bumps someone like Boeser down to the AHL where they won't benefit from that leadership anyways.

 

So my position is stand pat. Sign Bo. Let the kids develop with the mentors and leaders we have. We likely finish near the bottom again next year, we go all-in in the draft to take a player at the top of the draft that has a high likelihood of being a franchise player (we trade up if we lose in the draft lottery again), and next year we focus on returning to the playoffs.

I like this, but wonder tho if trading up will just be too expensive given the D talent in particular next draft. Anyone with a top 5 pick probably has a kid who can make the NHL roster so I think its going to be prohibitive to say the least to move up. But we do have a great chance of adding picks, maybe some 1st rounders if e.g.. Guddy isn't going to be re-signing, he'd be of interest to anyone making a playoff run and if healthy should net a pretty sweet return. 

 

 

[smithers joe]

sign horvat and gaunce and let the older players we have now, guide the youngsters. i'ld rather see virtanen make the line up, even if it's 3/4 line. our older guys will eventually move on, once the new boys can replace them. pettersson and dahlin for sedins. juolevi for edler. gaudette for sutter. virtanen, eventually for ericksson. and demko for one of the swedes. rebuilding takes time. 

[Sbriggs]

1 hour ago, apollo said:

As it stands, the Canucks are rebuilding and should hope to give as many roster spots to youngsters to develop their game... right?

(This seems to be the popular opinion from what I read on the forums... not everyone's opinion, just the popular one)

 

In 2007-2008 the Canucks finished last in the division... devastated fan base had no idea what was yet to come... an era of pummeling that same division and sheer dominance, cementing them as the greatest dynasty to ever play in the Northwest Division... banner after banner...  

 

What did they do in that summer? Offer an outrageous contract to veteran Mats Sundin (who I believe was 38 at the time)... and we all know how long it took for the contract to be signed, but eventually Mats did play for us and was a huge mentor for our players...  that team only had 5 regular skaters over the age of 30. Bolded were not impact players

 

13	Mats Sundin	se	C	37	6-5	231	R/-	17	February 13, 1971	9 G, 19 A, 28 P
38	Pavol Demitra	cs	C	34	6-0	200	L/-	14	November 29, 1974	20 G, 33 A, 53 P
6	Sami Salo	fi	D	34	6-3	215	R/-	9	September 2, 1974	5 G, 20 A, 25 P
27	Jason Krog	ca	C	33	5-11	185	R/-	6	October 9, 1975	1 G, 0 A, 1 P
10	Ryan Johnson	ca	C	32	6-1	199	L/-	10	June 14, 1976	2 G, 7 A, 9 P (can argue he was an impact guy too)
2	Mattias Ohlund	se	D	32	6-4	233	L/-	10	September 9, 1976	6 G, 19 A, 25 P
8	Willie Mitchell	ca	D	31	6-3	210	L/-	8	April 23, 1977	3 G, 20 A, 23 P

 

 

Now fast forward to 2017... nearly a decade of dominating the NHL (minus 3 years)... once the best team in the league, has now become a laughing stock. Finishing 2nd last overall and clearly rebuilding after 3/4 horrendous years. 

 

The team is projected to start with many players in their early 20's and only has a few veteran presences on the team and sits with only 5 veterans... only 2 of which are over 32 years old and are arguably the greatest to ever play for the glorious franchise. 

 

2	Daniel Sedin	se	LW	37	6-1	190		16	September 26, 1980		$7,000,000
33	Henrik Sedin	se	C	37	6-2	183		16	September 26, 1980		$7,000,000
21	Loui Eriksson	se	LW	32	6-2	196		11	July 17, 1985		$8,000,000
15	Derek Dorsett	ca	RW	31	6-0	192		9	December 20, 1986		$2,500,000
23	Alexander Edler	se	D	31	6-3	214		11	April 21, 1986		$6,000,000

 

While Loui, Dors and Edler are good mentors, it simply is not enough. Lets not forget... that Henrik and Daniel were only 28 and Burr / Juice 27 when the Canucks brought over Sundin. Same age as Sutter, Gagner, Tanev, & Markstrom are today. Not to mention all the guys in their early 20's on the 2017 roster which will be impacted like Kesler, Edler, Hansen, Schneider, were. 

 

So what I'm trying to get at with 50% facts / 50% homer ramblings is that we should go after a veteran presence. We've got an incredibly young roster and we need mentor ship. The Sedins are as elite as it gets, but another voice won't do anything but help our youngsters. 

 

Possible Options... would you offer any contracts?  

• Jaromir Jagr... he would be the jackpot but perhaps can't handle the travel of Vancouver? He certainly knows what a great city it would be in to play. At 45 and coming off a 46 point season, he's the prize to be had. 
• Shane Doan... can bring less on the ice than JJ but you can argue he has as good if not better character than JJ. 
• Jarome Iginla... also scored 27 points like Doan... his impact would be incredible. Especially for Brock / Bo / Jake 
• Mike Ribeiro... at 37 he's... hahah jk. Great on ice skills though, I wouldn't be opposed to a 1 year deal. Probably the last character you'd want near our young guys. 
• Chris Kelly... if all fails, he could be a great character guy. Even on a 2 way deal to play in Utica? Maybe give him $800k NHL salary and $300k AHL? 
• Francois Beauchemin... not much space on D but we have so many young dman... it could help? probably not a fit since we have 0 space on D though
• Hudler or Vanek... 33 year olds... youngest of the bunch but both could provide an offensive spark and some leadership? I'd prefer Vanek.

 

 

We have enough vets don't want to waist a spot on another one. Time to get the youth involved.

[apollo]

1 hour ago, Cramarossa said:

Jagr: Yes

Doan: Yes

Iginla: Yes

Ribeiro: Absolutely not, no. That's bad, you should feel bad

Those other guys: Meh

Ribeiro was a joke

 

59 minutes ago, nux_win said:

I think that Benning has done a good job of not only stocking our cupboards with prospects but also bringing in a few extra NHL caliber players to compete for roster spots.  I think that that is the key (competition for jobs and not allowing any free rides) rather than just bringing in vets past their prime just for the sake of it.  Let's not forget the free agents that we just signed (Gagner, Burmistrov, Del Zotto, Wiercioch, and Nilsson).  None of them are big names but they are all solid NHL players.  If the young guys can take jobs away from them then fine, but if not we have some players ready to go.  With those, and the Sedins (what more do we need for veteran leadership?), I don't think that we need to bring in more veterans just for the sake of it.  I think that it is always good to have competition for jobs (and so I wouldn't say "no" to a PTO or another UFA) but I think that we already have plenty of healthy competition for jobs.  GCG!

All those younger guys... can be mentors but not the same affect a character like Jagr, Doan or Iggy would have. It's easier for a Virtanen, Bo, Brock, Hutt, look up to one of those 3 guys rather than who you mentioned who are all in their 20's 

 

43 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

None of them unless you're buying out Dorsett. Tanev, Gagner and even Del Z and Gudbranson bring some form of veteran presence and/or leadership. 

Too late to buy out, two more years of DD... he's a good character guy and solid when healthy. I think he'll be an asset. Worst comes to worse... we waive him and save 900k on the cap. 

 

15 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

We have enough vets don't want to waist a spot on another one. Time to get the youth involved.

You could say the same about the 2008-09 team that Sundin joined... almost identical # of vets. Bringing in Mats had a trickling down affect on the organization... both the Sedins and even Linden have acknowledged this. It's possible a guy like JJ, Doan or Iggy would have the same affect IMO 

 

I think the only two true vets we have are the Sedins... who are similar characters. It would be beneficial if we got another veteran voice that's different than Hanks & Danny's

[crobar]

Does anybody actually believe  signing Sundin turned us into a dominant team. I believe all that did was waste 10 million dollars. In my opinion Sundin added zero value to Vancouver maybe less than Messier.

[nux_win]

1 minute ago, apollo said:

All those younger guys... can be mentors but not the same affect a character like Jagr, Doan or Iggy would have. It's easier for a Virtanen, Bo, Brock, Hutt, look up to one of those 3 guys rather than who you mentioned who are all in their 20's 

I guess my point is that mentorship is somewhat over-rated (and even if it is important we still have the Sedins who are the ultimate professionals).  Also I was trying to argue that competition, real competition, for jobs is more important than just having vets for the sake of vets.  We need players that can actually play and want to play for each other (yeah I know Jagr can still score and he is enticing but he doesn't automatically make us a better team - anybody remember Messier? - yeah I know different players but the point is that bringing in a big name vet doesn't always help).  We have enough people in the organization who know what it takes to win in the NHL, we just have to start doing it.  GCG!

[apollo]

Just now, nux_win said:

I guess my point is that mentorship is somewhat over-rated (and even if it is important we still have the Sedins who are the ultimate professionals).  Also I was trying to argue that competition, real competition, for jobs is more important than just having vets for the sake of vets.  We need players that can actually play and want to play for each other (yeah I know Jagr can still score and he is enticing but he doesn't automatically make us a better team - anybody remember Messier? - yeah I know different players but the point is that bringing in a big name vet doesn't always help).  We have enough people in the organization who know what it takes to win in the NHL, we just have to start doing it.  GCG!

I think with the Sedins, they are pretty much the same mentor. Like they both exemplify the same qualities and it's more like having 1 ultimate mentor... having a second would be beneficial. 

 

I don't think Jagr would be coming in and stripping Henrik of the Captaincy like Mess did to Linden. Also, it'll be a similar 1 year deal to Sundin, not a 5 year deal to Mess. 

 

Those guys can all contribute on the ice and push competition. I think 1 spot in the grand scheme of things isn't a big deal when our entire forward group is pretty much youngsters. Too many youngsters on the projected opening roster as of now IMO 

[Rob_Zepp]

I don't support the concept but of the three realistic options, Iginla would be my choice as he isn't the freak of nature that Jagr is or the cheap shot artist that Doan can be - Iginla earns every shift the right way and by all accounts is a great a guy away from the ice sheet as he is on it.   A fierce competitor and a true professional.   

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

23 minutes ago, apollo said:

Ribeiro was a joke

 

Jeeze, I was wondering.  I like the idea of mentors, but I think the Sedins are going to have to do double duty, they have 14mil in cap space between the 2 and that limits any higher priced vets.  Iginla would be too costly, but I like the thought of it.  It'd be nice to have Jagr for a season, but not at the cost of seeing a prospect take a step in development.  Overall, I think Doan would be the best if it was at a discount and everyone knew in advance what his role is.  I don't see it happening, but I wouldn't oppose it.

[nux_win]

3 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I don't support the concept but of the three realistic options, Iginla would be my choice as he isn't the freak of nature that Jagr is or the cheap shot artist that Doan can be - Iginla earns every shift the right way and by all accounts is a great a guy away from the ice sheet as he is on it.   A fierce competitor and a true professional.   

I've always respected the way Iginla plays and secretly wanted him on our team.  But we have to face it, there's just a few too many miles on his odometer.  I'm not suggesting that we should throw all our young guys to the sharks but I do think that we have enough competition for roster spots and while we can always add more I think the addition of our new UFAs will be enough to bridge the gap while our young guys compete for jobs.  A big name might help with marketing, but I don't really care about that, I just want to start winning games.  GCG!

[nux_win]

3 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I don't support the concept but of the three realistic options, Iginla would be my choice as he isn't the freak of nature that Jagr is or the cheap shot artist that Doan can be - Iginla earns every shift the right way and by all accounts is a great a guy away from the ice sheet as he is on it.   A fierce competitor and a true professional.   

I've always respected the way Iginla plays and secretly wanted him on our team.  But we have to face it, there's just a few too many miles on his odometer.  I'm not suggesting that we should throw all our young guys to the sharks but I do think that we have enough competition for roster spots and while we can always add more I think the addition of our new UFAs will be enough to bridge the gap while our young guys compete for jobs.  A big name might help with marketing, but I don't really care about that, I just want to start winning games.  GCG!

[Rob_Zepp]

2 minutes ago, nux_win said:

I've always respected the way Iginla plays and secretly wanted him on our team.  But we have to face it, there's just a few too many miles on his odometer.  I'm not suggesting that we should throw all our young guys to the sharks but I do think that we have enough competition for roster spots and while we can always add more I think the addition of our new UFAs will be enough to bridge the gap while our young guys compete for jobs.  A big name might help with marketing, but I don't really care about that, I just want to start winning games.  GCG!

That is exactly why I stated up front that "I don't support the concept but...."

[-Vintage Canuck-]

We don't necessarily need to acquire more veterans for leadership. This team has some young future leaders (Horvat, Gudbranson) that understand what it takes to win and how to face during a disappointing time.

[Nucker 67]

Canucks don't need more veterans. They currently have Henrik, Daniel, Loui, Dorsett and Edler. And you could argue, also Sutter, Gagner, Del Zotto, Wiercioch and Tanev. What they need is for the younger guys to start making a name for themselves. How much mentorship do these guys need? Is Jagr going to come in and do exactly what the Sedins can't? Doubt it. Let TOR sign all of the old guys. Canucks are still rebuilding.