[ESPN Insider: Pronman] Ranks Canucks prospect pipeline 9th in league

[D-Money]

50 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Yet again I am questioning Pronman and I just don't know why.  Every time he puts this list out he marks his criteria then immediately goes against it.

 

Flyers at 1.  Ok, Patrick is his reasoning...really?  They'd not even be top 7 on my list.  Some ok D prospects and Patrick who screams potential bust.  That is not #1

Although I agree that Pronman's list is somewhat confusing and contradicts itself, I see no issue with the Flyers at #1. They have a top forward prospect, a few fantastic D prospects, and loads of depth at F and G.

 

F: Nolan, Konecny, Rubstov, Frost, Vorobyov, Lindblom, Ratcliffe, Vecchione, Bunnaman, Aubé-Kubel, Laberge, Leier, Fazleev, Twarynski, Laczynski, Kase, Strome, Allison, Sushko

D: Sanheim, Morin, Myers, Hagg, Alt, Bernhardt, Willcox
G: Lyon, Stolarz, Hart, Lyon, Sandstrom, Ustimenko, Tomek

[Warhippy]

37 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

 

It seems fair and correct to me. If Gaudette continues to improve as he has been and we get another top 5 pick, hopefully an "elite D" then we'd probably rank 4-5 range next year and thats actually great and we can start working towards getting the window open for the group we have. 

 

What I'd like to see is a credible list of prospects drafted outside of the 1st round.

 

Show me a compiled list about that for teams.

 

Because I can credibly say I look at the canucks since 2013 and I see far more success outside of the 1st round than I do for a number of teams in Pronmans top 15 here without mentioning the perennial losers over that time period

[Warhippy]

46 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Agree on most of your statements there @Warhippy. Hard to say where I'd rank the Canucks overall given his ratings are so far all over the place vs reality but likely +/- couple spot from where he has them is probably right. So at least he's not far off there.

 

There's certainly a few teams that should be lower and some that should be higher as you stated though. 

My main gripe is his creiteria

 

he places his criteria based on X and Y then ignores them almost immediately.

 

I don't put much if any stock in lists, rankings or the like anymore.  Just fluff to keep people amused in the off season

[Warhippy]

6 minutes ago, D-Money said:

Although I agree that Pronman's list is somewhat confusing and contradicts itself, I see no issue with the Flyers at #1. They have a top forward prospect, a few fantastic D prospects, and loads of depth at F and G.

 

F: Nolan, Konecny, Rubstov, Frost, Vorobyov, Lindblom, Ratcliffe, Vecchione, Bunnaman, Aubé-Kubel, Laberge, Leier, Fazleev, Twarynski, Laczynski, Kase, Strome, Allison, Sushko

D: Sanheim, Morin, Myers, Hagg, Alt, Bernhardt, Willcox
G: Lyon, Stolarz, Hart, Lyon, Sandstrom, Ustimenko, Tomek

I won't argue they have SOME good prospects, they do.  Morin, Sanheim (ish) Konency and now Patrick are all by and large solid prospects.  But I don't see them at #1.

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

What I'd like to see is a credible list of prospects drafted outside of the 1st round.

 

Show me a compiled list about that for teams.

 

Because I can credibly say I look at the canucks since 2013 and I see far more success outside of the 1st round than I do for a number of teams in Pronmans top 15 here without mentioning the perennial losers over that time period

geez Hip, that would take a lot of work, you're expecting a lot from the media on that front. 

 

I like to browse around Cap Friendly a lot and look at who's in the ELC category and then who the best college players are. Then there's the number of "top 100" guys that your team may have but even that doesn't quite cover it. 

 

The ELC-level performance gives you a good sense of who's got a decent pipeline or not I think, but for sure a detailed look at this would be nice. 

[TheGuardian_]

I guess rankings could be the number, quantity, of potential NHL players.

 

Maybe rankings are by impact in the NHL, that might explain some rankings.

 

The Nucks now appear to have more prospects with potential for making the NHL.

 

My argument has always been quality over quantity.

 

The fans should see most of the top prospects this year attempting to play their game in the NHL

BUT

IMO the Nucks won't play many, maybe 3, so they can continue to sell "hope" of those not yet in the show.

It makes sense as the last thing management would want to do is play them and still finish near the bottom.

 

Hey, has the new #1 kid signed yet?

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I guess rankings could be the number, quantity, of potential NHL players.

 

Maybe rankings are by impact in the NHL, that might explain some rankings.

 

The Nucks now appear to have more prospects with potential for making the NHL.

 

My argument has always been quality over quantity.

 

The fans should see most of the top prospects this year attempting to play their game in the NHL

BUT

IMO the Nucks won't play many, maybe 3, so they can continue to sell "hope" of those not yet in the show.

It makes sense as the last thing management would want to do is play them and still finish near the bottom.

 

Hey, has the new #1 kid signed yet?

You mean Petersson?  No, not signed. 

[TheGuardian_]

35 minutes ago, Alflives said:

You mean Petersson?  No, not signed. 

I guess they are saving his and Horvat's signings to pump up sales at the start of the season.

[nux_win]

To all the people who are saying in various ways that it will be great when we move up even further in the prospect rankings when we get yet another high draft pick, I say rubbish!  That's just another way of indirectly supporting tanking.  The point is to win NHL games not win the draft lottery.  These prospect rankings are speculation at best and yet people treat them as if they are somehow accurate and important.  I know my fellow Canucks fans are desperate for some kind of win but "winning" the prospect rankings is meaningless.  I want to win NHL games.  And I want to do it now!  Or at least die trying.  (and yes we have the players, we just have to work on the winning attitude - down with tanking!)  GCG!

[apollo]

30 minutes ago, mll said:

 

Each team has a representative in the room when the lottery balls are drawn - Vancouver had Francesco Aquilini.  You can see him at the 40 second mark when they do a scan of the room.  

https://www.nhl.com/video/inside-the-draft-lottery-room/t-288687876/c-51768703

 

His top-3 are Clayton Keller (7th), Nico Hischier and Matthew Barzal (16th).

Hmm..... fair enough. Down with the old boys club anyways. I'm sure they fix the lottery somehow. Different weights for the balls probs. 

 

DOWN WITH THE OLD BOYS CLUB! The NHL is corrupt.

[ice orca]

2 minutes ago, nux_win said:

To all the people who are saying in various ways that it will be great when we move up even further in the prospect rankings when we get yet another high draft pick, I say rubbish!  That's just another way of indirectly supporting tanking.  The point is to win NHL games not win the draft lottery.  These prospect rankings are speculation at best and yet people treat them as if they are somehow accurate and important.  I know my fellow Canucks fans are desperate for some kind of win but "winning" the prospect rankings is meaningless.  I want to win NHL games.  And I want to do it now!  Or at least die trying.  (and yes we have the players, we just have to work on the winning attitude - down with tanking!)  GCG!

Rubbish eh? the team has tried to win and failed miserably the last couple of years with old slow guys and filler age gap players. You want to win now..good luck with that. We need new young blood on this team and it will take 3-4 tears to see the fruits of drafting and development, there are no shortcuts.

[ice orca]

8 minutes ago, apollo said:

Hmm..... fair enough. Down with the old boys club anyways. I'm sure they fix the lottery somehow. Different weights for the balls probs. 

 

DOWN WITH THE OLD BOYS CLUB! The NHL is corrupt.

Aquaman should have brought Luca Brazzi into the lottery room with him and made Daley an offer he couldn't refuse.

[apollo]

2 minutes ago, ice orca said:

Aquaman should have brought Luca Brazzi into the lottery room with him and made Daley an offer he couldn't refuse.

That would be a heck of a scene

[nux_win]

2 minutes ago, ice orca said:

Rubbish eh? the team has tried to win and failed miserably the last couple of years with old slow guys and filler age gap players. You want to win now..good luck with that. We need new young blood on this team and it will take 3-4 tears to see the fruits of drafting and development, there are no shortcuts.

Winning starts with believing that you can win.  Yes, there are no shortcuts, but low expectations are a symptom of low self esteem not necessarily being "realistic" (it hurts the ego more when you expect to win and don't than if you expect to lose and do).  It's an expression of confidence and optimism to want to win.  In my mind putting forward one's BEST effort to win and failing is not really a fail.  Winning the draft lottery IS a fail in my mind (it is a consolation prize for failure to perform not something to be aimed at). Tanking feels good for those with bruised egos (and yeah we're Canucks fans so I understand that) but it is not a winning strategy.  Even finishing dead last does not guarantee the best pick.  And even getting the best pick doesn't really mean much, if there isn't a winning culture to cultivate it.  I don't want another top draft pick, I want to start trying to win now.  And if we can't win every game, we're going to die trying.  That's the only way to win games in any competitive sport.  GCG!

[TheGuardian_]

58 minutes ago, mll said:

 

Each team has a representative in the room when the lottery balls are drawn - Vancouver had Francesco Aquilini.  You can see him at the 40 second mark when they do a scan of the room.  

https://www.nhl.com/video/inside-the-draft-lottery-room/t-288687876/c-51768703

 

His top-3 are Clayton Keller (7th), Nico Hischier and Matthew Barzal (16th).

Thanks for the video, I really like that they posted this, is there any from previous years? 

[bloodycanuckleheads]

39 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I guess they are saving his and Horvat's signings to pump up sales at the start of the season.

Judging by the up-votes, a lot of you seem to think ^ this is true! 

There is no way in hell that we are exposing Bo to offer-sheets, just so we can get a tiny bit of publicity at the beginning of the year!  That would be, just about, the dumbest thing in history.  Of course, our team constantly does unbelievably stupid things like that, but this would be even too stupid for them.

 

It's a very bad sign that we haven't re-signed Bo yet.  Very, very bad.  It means his agent isn't giving us a hometown-discount, but is doing literally the exact opposite.  He's trying to extract as much money as possible, and he's putting us over a barrel to do it.  What is happening now does not bode well for us.  They are trying to force us to either over-pay - or possibly trade him to a much better team.  It's very bad.

[TheGuardian_]

2 minutes ago, bloodycanuckleheads said:

Judging by the up-votes, a lot of you seem to think ^ this is true! 

There is no way in hell that we are exposing Bo to offer-sheets, just so we can get a tiny bit of publicity at the beginning of the year!  That would be, just about, the dumbest thing in history.  Of course, our team constantly does unbelievably stupid things like that, but this would be even too stupid for them.

 

It's a very bad sign that we haven't re-signed Bo yet.  Very, very bad.  It means his agent isn't giving us a hometown-discount, but is doing literally the exact opposite.  He's trying to extract as much money as possible, and he's putting us over a barrel to do it.  What is happening now does not bode well for us.  They are trying to force us to either over-pay - or possibly trade him to a much better team.  It's very bad.

I don't disagree, all it will take is a very unfortunate accident of a key player on some team for an offer sheet. Maybe not even that, what if Burke decides to play a game and offer huge money or contract, what if TO makes an offer. Delaying IMO is as you stated, bad management.

 

But then again maybe they just took the summer off and went on vacation. The team is built already so lots of time on their hands.

[Rob_Zepp]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Yet again I am questioning Pronman and I just don't know why.  Every time he puts this list out he marks his criteria then immediately goes against it.

 

Flyers at 1.  Ok, Patrick is his reasoning...really?  They'd not even be top 7 on my list.  Some ok D prospects and Patrick who screams potential bust.  That is not #1

Yotes at 2.  Perfect in my eyes, they're top 3 for prospects no matter how you spin it.

Preds at 3.  Not so much.  Certainly top 10 but to quote it as "star power" I don't see that with the Preds anywhere.  Just decent prospects.  Nothing to get excited about

Islanders at 4.  OK why?  Because of barzal?  Who else do they have?  Sorokin?  Best goalie prospect?  Hmmm  To shallow to be top 5

Devils at 5.  Because of Hischier alone?  The devils are thin for being so bad.  Prospects not prospect.  Again, against his own criteria

Wild at 6.  Putting them in the same place as the Preds.  more middle of the pack.  Good prospects but nothing to get uber excited about yet.   YET!

Lightning at 7.  Dammit...have to agree here.  They've built something special, managed to stay under the cap and STILL have solid prospects to burn.  Stupid Cal Foote...

Blues at 8.  Again, why?  A couple of intriguing prospects but not uber excited.  Pronman.  By your own criteria bud...look deeper than just this year

Nucks at 9.  Gonna get flamed here but ya, I see 9-10 right now.  1 more decent draft and we're top 3.  More than just this year and late round success

Boston at 10.  MacAvoy.  That is all.  Seriously, kids a stud but pretty thin afterwards.

 

I won't go deeper because this is all just my opinion but I've always taken Pronman with a huge shot of sodium (grain of salt) because he makes his criteria, states it's set in stone.  Then immediately goes against it.

 

For me, again my opinion; prospect depth, skill is set against more than 1 draft and includes 

• NHL ready prospects
• Emergence of young stars
• Star power and name recognition
• Late round success
• Long term viability

Meaning to say 1 prospect drafted this year alone with such a shallow pool behind them should not qualify a team to be in his top ten.  But a team like Carolina who has done nothing but steadily build players that will win you cups and now has the ability to drop an NHL caliber player in to the league every year for the next 3-5 years from their pool is at 15.

 

1 MacAvoy sets Boston in to the top 10, but an entire core of young top prospects in the Jets system doesn't even set them in the top 15.

 

Again, my opinion only but I never really put much stock in to Pee Mans lists anymore.  But I will echo myself from a few prior threads when i say the canucks are on the path to something good.  2 more drafts in the top 10 and another in the top 20 with extra picks in the first 3 rounds could see us with the deepest prospect pool this organization has ever had.

 

Great thoughts here.   I think Canucks are in  upper half - not sure as high as 10 but somewhere in 10 to 15 which is miles further than just two-three years ago when I would have said 25-30th.    

 

I too don't understand Jets or Bruins being that high.   I think Coyotes have best prospects in NHL.   I also think Canes should be in top 10.

[bloodycanuckleheads]

I don't think anyone will offer-sheet him.  It's just annoying that we are getting put over a barrel again - like Luongo did to us!  And, how did that turn out for us?...

[Rob_Zepp]

10 minutes ago, bloodycanuckleheads said:

Judging by the up-votes, a lot of you seem to think ^ this is true! 

There is no way in hell that we are exposing Bo to offer-sheets, just so we can get a tiny bit of publicity at the beginning of the year!  That would be, just about, the dumbest thing in history.  Of course, our team constantly does unbelievably stupid things like that, but this would be even too stupid for them.

 

It's a very bad sign that we haven't re-signed Bo yet.  Very, very bad.  It means his agent isn't giving us a hometown-discount, but is doing literally the exact opposite.  He's trying to extract as much money as possible, and he's putting us over a barrel to do it.  What is happening now does not bode well for us.  They are trying to force us to either over-pay - or possibly trade him to a much better team.  It's very bad.

This is hilarious.   Thanks for the laugh!       You know for a fact that Bo's agent hasn't been on vacation?   You don't know squat of what you speculate above.  Nothing is "very bad" at all until you hear news one way or the other.   Patience is an issue I take it.