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Jagr & Ageism - A Retort

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I'd have to say that I generally agree with your side more. For me, a guy like Jagr feels like a bit of a ticking time bomb. Every season, you expect his play to take a massive hit, but it hasn't yet. That said, as he gets older and older, it gets more and more likely that the following season will be the one in which he can't perform at a top level anymore. I personally doubt that it's a matter of age discrimination and more likely a factor of factors related to his age. It's not discrimination to pick the best available players for the job, even if the best players happen to be young.

 

All that said, I really do hope Jagr is signed. I'd love to see him become the second NHL player to hit 2000 points, the second man to surpass Howe's 801 goals, and become the All-Time games leader.

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5 hours ago, -AJ- said:

I'd have to say that I generally agree with your side more. For me, a guy like Jagr feels like a bit of a ticking time bomb. Every season, you expect his play to take a massive hit, but it hasn't yet. That said, as he gets older and older, it gets more and more likely that the following season will be the one in which he can't perform at a top level anymore. I personally doubt that it's a matter of age discrimination and more likely a factor of factors related to his age. It's not discrimination to pick the best available players for the job, even if the best players happen to be young.

 

All that said, I really do hope Jagr is signed. I'd love to see him become the second NHL player to hit 2000 points, the second man to surpass Howe's 801 goals, and become the All-Time games leader.

Sure, he could very well be due for a significant decline in his play and production, but what's stopping somebody from giving a cheap contract (say, $1-2 million) chock full of performance bonuses. It's a win for everybody and Jagr strikes me as the type of competitive/confident guy that will set those goals for himself anyway.

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People has been saying he's too old for the past 10 years.... he still going strong, lol.  

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4 hours ago, Sean Monahan said:

Sure, he could very well be due for a significant decline in his play and production, but what's stopping somebody from giving a cheap contract (say, $1-2 million) chock full of performance bonuses. It's a win for everybody and Jagr strikes me as the type of competitive/confident guy that will set those goals for himself anyway.

OP points out lost development time for younger players as a reason, and it's not a bad theory.  

 

I like Jagr now (couldn't stand his and Mario's faking high-stick contact waaay back when), but I can see most teams wanting to move on.  He didn't lose significant ice-time, but saw a big drop in stats last year (arguably because of linemate injuries), and a similar drop while taking up a roster spot and 1.5 to 2M would definitely be a liability.  I am a little surprised some team doesn't sign him, but perhaps the development issue OP offered is enough of a reason.  Teams could still benefit from his leadership and guidance as an assistant coach, if he was willing to retire.

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19 minutes ago, Kragar said:

OP points out lost development time for younger players as a reason, and it's not a bad theory.  

 

I like Jagr now (couldn't stand his and Mario's faking high-stick contact waaay back when), but I can see most teams wanting to move on.  He didn't lose significant ice-time, but saw a big drop in stats last year (arguably because of linemate injuries), and a similar drop while taking up a roster spot and 1.5 to 2M would definitely be a liability.  I am a little surprised some team doesn't sign him, but perhaps the development issue OP offered is enough of a reason.  Teams could still benefit from his leadership and guidance as an assistant coach, if he was willing to retire.

I don't necessarily agree. 46 points on a bad team with (what I believe was) a revolving door of linemates is nothing to scoff at. He's not going to carry a line anymore but he's a great 5-8 forward on a deeper team, based on what we know him to be at least. He very well could drop off. Father Time will catch up with anybody eventually.

 

I don't think a contending team with any modicum of cap space would have too much trouble bringing him on with the type of contract I proposed (1-2 million, performance bonus laden). If he doesn't pan out you can waive him and he either gets claimed or you've now dumped a decent chunk of his cap hit in the minors. Many contending teams don't have a ton in the way of young players that are ready to step into that middle 6 role and put up 40ish points anyway. If you're looking to win now I don't think you're too concerned about that one year of development.

 

of course, it's entirely possible he's not willing to sign with anybody on the type of contract I've proposed too.

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4 minutes ago, Sean Monahan said:

I don't necessarily agree. 46 points on a bad team with (what I believe was) a revolving door of linemates is nothing to scoff at. He's not going to carry a line anymore but he's a great 5-8 forward on a deeper team, based on what we know him to be at least. He very well could drop off. Father Time will catch up with anybody eventually.

 

I don't think a contending team with any modicum of cap space would have too much trouble bringing him on with the type of contract I proposed (1-2 million, performance bonus laden). If he doesn't pan out you can waive him and he either gets claimed or you've now dumped a decent chunk of his cap hit in the minors. Many contending teams don't have a ton in the way of young players that are ready to step into that middle 6 role and put up 40ish points anyway. If you're looking to win now I don't think you're too concerned about that one year of development.

 

of course, it's entirely possible he's not willing to sign with anybody on the type of contract I've proposed too.

I wasn't scoffing at the 46 points.  I was more concerned about it dropping below 30, especially if his goal production has another big drop.  If he can maintain a similar level of play, I agree he could help a contending team, where development is less of an issue.

 

And yeah, I don't know anything about what he is asking for.  

 

He sure is an interesting character.  Was fun having him at the All star game a couple years ago.

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Depending on how NHL ruling goes on Hossa....I could see the Blackhawks giving him a one year deal.

 

Whether he plays with Toews and Saad or Anisimov and Kane, one would assume his offensive capabilities would be utilized to their fullest.

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What if Jagr identifies himself as a 25 year old, does the argument still have validity?

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He's getting pretty slow, he's a massive gamble. I don't blame teams for staying away. 

 

However I really want him to sign somewhere! Arizona would be awesome. 

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its the mexican supplements that probably have teams scared.  how can he be that strong at age 45.  he is either a freak of nature or he is taking TRT or something.

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I don't think it's an age thing, I think it's a speed thing. He's not the quickest guy around. 

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Excellent post! Enjoyed reading that. Ageism absolutely plays role in this from a deeper societal standpoint. There's no way it can't. Jagr is defying conventional wisdom when it comes to how people view older players. And he's doing it at a time when the league is getting younger. 

 

It's only natural to expect aging players to slow down, decline, become less productive, stale, and eventually become liabilities rather than assets. As they get older, those expectations only intensify. When players continue playing past 35, their careers become ticking clocks in the eyes of others. From a conventional wisdom perspective, "retirement" enters the discussion and there's the societal perception that older players can't produce or be as productive as youth.

 

Look beyond hockey. There's definitely ageism in the entertainment industry. 40 is the kiss of death, especially for writers. There's absolutely ageism in tech and the startup scene. Even in restaurants and staff. Too many older staff alienate youth and vise versa. TV ratings and movies appeal to the 18-34 demo.

 

Ageism is hardwired into society on so many levels. Over the past few years across various industries, we've seen a societal shift away from people with experience. There's an underlying age component within that shift since the people who have the most experience are older. 

 

There's just a natural societal perception that older people aren't as productive, slow down, resist change, etc, etc. And I'm not saying there isn't truth to that either. BUT ...

 

The problem with ageism is that it paints aging people with the same brush of perception. It doesn't take into account that people decline or diminish at different rates. I know many highly skilled, creative, productive 40+ who have been forced out of industries simply because of that perception. Jagr's inherent elite skill and talent has extended his career. As his body ages, his talent has kept him more productive than many younger players.

 

So we have a guy like Jagr whose elite talent is declining but not at the rate of what we're accustomed to from a conventional wisdom standpoint with aging players. On some level, we're kinda seeing a situation where people don't know what to do with him.

 

He's obviously still productive and can help a team but it's clearly difficult to reconcile giving a roster spot to a 45 year old player in an age where teams are getting younger. It's an interesting situation. I'm curious to see at what point does ageism force someone out of the league even when they're still productive. 

 

I'm not saying ageism is the only factor but it's definitely a real issue within the situation. There's no way it couldn't be. 

 

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It seems like Jagr has been feeding on easy points to stay relevant, but overall he's been slowing down his linemates.

 

And when the game speed and effort level gets turned up further, he just can't keep up. Doesn't have a single goal in his last 28 playoff games, going back to 2013.

 

I'm not surprised he hasn't got a contract.

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