Report: Panthers-Canucks deal Demers nixed was for Gudbranson

[WHL rocks]

10 minutes ago, JamesBlondage said:

This is the third time this story has been told...

Yes it was known Demers nixed a trade to the Canucks. There were rumours it was for Gudbranson. But now it has been confirmed by Demers that he did nix a trade and it was for Gudbranson. So now it's  been confirmed. 

[WHL rocks]

11 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I'd like to give Gudbranson a healthy season before writing him off.  Coming to a new system, injured, with a complete idiot coaching the team isn't exactly a great position to be in.  He has a valuable skill-set that we'll miss dearly if we sell low on him.

Yes, I think it's best to wait till trade deadline. We might be able to get a decent prospect along with a 2nd if he plays well. He's gone at end of year as UFA unless we overpay to keep him.

[DeNiro]

Nobody knows what was coming back from the Panthers along with Demers. It could have been Demers and Marchessault for all we know. No point speculating though.

 

All we really know is that there was a deal involving Demers and Gudbranson. I doubt it was a one for one since we know how high Tallon is on Guddy.

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

Yes, I think it's best to wait till trade deadline. We might be able to get a decent prospect along with a 2nd if he plays well. He's gone at end of year as UFA unless we overpay to keep him.

I'd rather keep him around if he plays well.    We'll have a ton of cap space next year and our D is thin enough even with him.

[WHL rocks]

13 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I'd rather keep him around if he plays well.    We'll have a ton of cap space next year and our D is thin enough even with him.

Do you really wanna pay 4+ mill to a 5D or 6D on a 4 or 5 year deal? Because that's what he'll ask for in VAN. Not even close to being worth it imo,.

 

The game is getting faster and faster every year. Look at the last two Cup teams, PIT won 2 years in a row with small mobile Dmen.  The game has changed. He won't be able to keep up in a few years and will need to be bought out. 

I'm glad we didnt' get Demers and his bad contract so JB did dodge one. But we will have to trade him at some point and I'd rather we get pick, prospect back rather than a 29 year old on a bad contract. 

I'd rather trade him at the tdl even for a 2nd and sign depth Dmen on July 1st via UFA. A guy like DelZotto would be better than Gudbranson at the dollars and term he came at. 

[WHL rocks]

 

 

 

 

 

On July 1, while the Vancouver Canucks were busy signing up veteran players on reasonable, short-term contracts, Pierre Lebrun of TSN reported that Jason Demers had used his limited no-trade clause to nix a trade to Vancouver.

 

Demers's contract specified that there were eight teams he could deny a trade to.

Recently, Canucks Army reported that tax rates may have been a big factor in Demers’s decision, as Florida doesn’t apply a state income tax. Some observers said the same thing when Steven Stamkos chose to stay in Tampa Bay instead of chasing a massive contract elsewhere.

And while this may be true, it doesn't answer the real question: Why did the Canucks want to bring in Demers?

The Panthers currently have just under $11 million in salary cap space, but still have about five players to sign, unless their younger players, like former Canuck Jared McCann, can make the jump. (Speaking of McCann, the player rumoured to be going Florida's way in a possible Demers deal is the same man who was traded for the former Canucks first rounder: Erik Gudbranson, because it's written into NHL law that at least one quarter of former Panthers need to return to Florida at some point in their careers.

The salary cap was one of the reasons that Florida let promising forward Jonathan Marchessault and his 30 goals last season go to the Vegas Golden Knights for free in the expansion draft, as they worked out a deal that would see the Knights take on Reilly Smith and his five year/ $5 million contract for a 2018 fourth round draft pick.

Cap space was so important to the Panthers that they gave away their third leading scorer last year.

So, of course they were looking to get out of another bad contract.

Jason Demers was fifth on the Panthers in ice time per game, but he ate those minutes up ineffectively.

Corsi is an advanced stats tool used to measure how many shot chances a team generates when a player is on the ice, versus when he's on the bench.

Demers posted the worst even-strength Corsi of any Panthers defenceman who played more than 40 games. In fact, according to another advanced statistic kept by Hockey Reference, point share — similar to baseball's 'win share' stat, where a player is measured by how many points he helped his team achieve in the standings — Demers's career is closely aligned with that of formerly maligned Canuck (and Panther) Keith Ballard.

Pretty good read. https://www.straight.com/blogra/937046/why-did-canucks-try-trade-jason-demers

 

Recently, Canucks' GM Jim Benning and his staff have been praised for embracing analytics in drafting and acquiring players. This has included drafting pint-sized Petrus Palmu and new coach Travis Green speaking about his excitement over using all the data available in the NHL, as opposed to what's offered in the AHL.

But the Demers rumours don't jibe with that, and they represent a dangerous direction for the club to be headed in. While trading Gulbranson isn't the worst idea — it's likely the team won't resign him when his contract runs out at the end of this season — swapping him for Demers would be a disaster.

Not only does Demers cost a million more per year against the cap at $4.5 million, he's signed for three more years than Gudbranson. Sometimes cap stability is important and acquiring a player on a longer term deal at a reasonable, cost-controlled price is a good move. This is not one of those times. Demers isn't worth $4.5 million right now, and he just turned 29. The odds that he will be worth that contract in 2020 are extremely low.

It's moves like this that confound Canucks fans who have just started to get on board with the team's plan. Whether or not the rebuild ends up working out probably comes down to whether Benning is saved from himself or not. Jason Demers did him a massive favour by not coming to Vancouver. Whether Benning will acknowledge that or learn from it in the coming months remains to be seen.

[JM_]

maybe Demers is still ____hurt over 2011? Its pretty classless to mention another player but Guddy seems pretty committed to making it work here after a summer of training and charity work. If the D group gels I could see him signing and extension. 

[King Heffy]

33 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

Do you really wanna pay 4+ mill to a 5D or 6D on a 4 or 5 year deal? Because that's what he'll ask for in VAN. Not even close to being worth it imo,.

 

The game is getting faster and faster every year. Look at the last two Cup teams, PIT won 2 years in a row with small mobile Dmen.  The game has changed. He won't be able to keep up in a few years and will need to be bought out. 

I'm glad we didnt' get Demers and his bad contract so JB did dodge one. But we will have to trade him at some point and I'd rather we get pick, prospect back rather than a 29 year old on a bad contract. 

I'd rather trade him at the tdl even for a 2nd and sign depth Dmen on July 1st via UFA. A guy like DelZotto would be better than Gudbranson at the dollars and term he came at. 

I don't think he's a 5 or 6 D.  Just because PIttsburgh won with small, mobile defensemen doesn't mean that we need to follow that model.  This is exactly the thinking that started GIllis on his path of destruction. 

 

I much prefer Gudbranson over Del Zotto as I believe every defenseman should actually be able to play defense. 

[WHL rocks]

11 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I don't think he's a 5 or 6 D.  Just because PIttsburgh won with small, mobile defensemen doesn't mean that we need to follow that model.  This is exactly the thinking that started GIllis on his path of destruction. 

 

I much prefer Gudbranson over Del Zotto as I believe every defenseman should actually be able to play defense. 

Gudbranson isn't really good at either end of the ice. He is definitely a bottom pairing Dman. A 5 or 6. He's not a top 4 D in anyone's mind accept some Canucks fans who are biased because they like Gudbranson the person and they like his size and physicality.  In FLD when these rumours came out not many wanted Demers traded for Gudbranson even though Guddy was their 3rd overall pick and liked in the locker room most media types don't agree with the swap. 

 

Tallon has been told by ownership to make a 10 million dollar salary cut. That's why he's getting rid of Demers and why he didn't resign a 30g scoring Marchessault instead giving him up in expansion draft to Vegas. 

Only reason I wouldn't do the deal is because I think JB is veering off this rebuild and trying to get better and older right away. I don't think that's a good idea, Gudbranson should be traded for younger player or pick, build thru draft. 

 

We are many many years from contending, Gudbranson will be out of the NHL by the time we contend for a Cup. 

 

[samurai]

4 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

Gudbranson isn't really good at either end of the ice. In FLD when these rumours came out not many wanted Demers traded for Gudbranson even though Guddy was their 3rd overall pick and liked in the locker room most media types don't agree with the swap. 

 

Only reason I wouldn't do the deal is because I think JB is veering off this rebuild and trying to get better. I don't think that's a good idea, Gudbranson should be traded for younger player or pick, build thru draft. 

 

We are many many years from contending, Gudbranson will be out of the NHL by the time we contend for a Cup. 

 

Boeser, Stetcher, Sven, and a lot of young guys are on the team.  You need a legit heavyweight you can play minutes to police the ice.  Guddy is our guy.  Remember Martin going after Troy last year?    What the people say about Guddy is yeah he is not great in either end but where he excels (ask Taylor Hall) is stopping guys in the middle or upon entry.     

 

In short we lose Guddy we lost an important part of the team.  And teams play better when they got a guy who can deal with anyone on the ice.   Say what you want about Lucic but he is a classic example of this.   Remember McDavid pre Lucic see him now.  Same with Ekbald in Florida post Guddy.     

[mll]

1 hour ago, King Heffy said:

I'd rather keep him around if he plays well.    We'll have a ton of cap space next year and our D is thin enough even with him.

He might not want to come back now that he knows Benning was willing to trade him for Demers.  He is a UFA and will likely also have other options.

[WHL rocks]

2 minutes ago, samurai said:

Boeser, Stetcher, Sven, and a lot of young guys are on the team.  You need a legit heavyweight you can play minutes to police the ice.  Guddy is our guy.  Remember Martin going after Troy last year?    What the people say about Guddy is yeah he is not great in either end but where he excels (ask Taylor Hall) is stopping guys in the middle or upon entry.     

 

In short we lose Guddy we lost an important part of the team.  And teams play better when they got a guy who can deal with anyone on the ice.   Say what you want about Lucic but he is a classic example of this.   Remember McDavid pre Lucic see him now.  Same with Ekbald in Florida post Guddy.     

I agree. Gudbranson does bring some of that albeit he didn't too much last year. Maybe his wrist injury prevented him from laying the body more but i'm not sure about that. 

 

 But we can sign a 6D for around 2+ mill to be a goon. Or a 4th line forward for similar price. Why pay 4+ mill long term just for that? 

[cripplereh]

well i think Benning wants something back for Guddy as end of season he can go any place he wants so makes sense to trade him if we can

 

I do not want to but to get the team better in the future you can not loose players for nothing

[Rick Blight]

How would Demers know that the trade would be for Gudbranson? I can't imagine Tallon going to Demers with anything other than "would you accept a trade to Vancouver". To mention a specific player before you have a deal done is totally unethical and would lead to teams being unwilling to deal with you down the road. That is not Tallon.

I call BS on this one.

[samurai]

5 hours ago, WHL rocks said:

I agree. Gudbranson does bring some of that albeit he didn't too much last year. Maybe his wrist injury prevented him from laying the body more but i'm not sure about that. 

 

 But we can sign a 6D for around 2+ mill to be a goon. Or a 4th line forward for similar price. Why pay 4+ mill long term just for that? 

but you got a goon who cant play sufficient minutes and cant play with top players.  Guddy is a guy who plays better with better players.    What you see now as well a lot of the fighting occurs at the moment  of incidence.  So if Boeser is roughed up you need a guy on the ice at that moment to deal with it.   Fighters will dance later but there are a lot dirty players who if you dont get them on the spot they wont fight.      Do i think Guddy is 4 million plus.  Hard to say at this moment because we haven't seen enough.   Probably not, but we can afford him right now.  

 

As for his wrist.  He had surgery and you see now at the golf tourney he was wearing a special wrist protector.   Hard to shoot, pass and use a stick with a injured wrist.

 

He will have to have a pretty good season for anyone to want to offer top 4 money.  

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, WHL rocks said:

I agree. Gudbranson does bring some of that albeit he didn't too much last year. Maybe his wrist injury prevented him from laying the body more but i'm not sure about that. 

 

 But we can sign a 6D for around 2+ mill to be a goon. Or a 4th line forward for similar price. Why pay 4+ mill long term just for that? 

2

Like who?

 

You can bury a goon at forward, and play him 4 or 5 minutes a game. See Sestito.

 

But I'm not aware of a team that bury a 6th D for 4 or 5 minutes.   Even if your top pairing guys play 28 minutes and the 3/4 D man play 20 minutes each. Your 5th and 6 D play 12 minutes a night.  Most don't have two 28 minute D men. There are only 5 or 7 in existence. So bottom pairing D almost all play 14 or 15 minutes a night.

 

You cannot just get a plug D ma, at $2 mill,n for no other purpose than creating a safe working environment? There are just too many minutes you expose yourself to getting walked around in actual hockey.

[Crabcakes]

Jason Demers is getting passed around like a lemon.  3 teams in 3 years and Florida traded him for a 3rd line forward (Jamie McGinn) after the deal with Van crapped out.  

 

Dodged a bullet there.

[WHL rocks]

1 hour ago, samurai said:

but you got a goon who cant play sufficient minutes and cant play with top players.  Guddy is a guy who plays better with better players.    What you see now as well a lot of the fighting occurs at the moment  of incidence.  So if Boeser is roughed up you need a guy on the ice at that moment to deal with it.   Fighters will dance later but there are a lot dirty players who if you dont get them on the spot they wont fight.      Do i think Guddy is 4 million plus.  Hard to say at this moment because we haven't seen enough.   Probably not, but we can afford him right now.  

 

As for his wrist.  He had surgery and you see now at the golf tourney he was wearing a special wrist protector.   Hard to shoot, pass and use a stick with a injured wrist.

 

He will have to have a pretty good season for anytime to want to offer top 4 money.  

 

29 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Like who?

 

You can bury a goon at forward, and play him 4 or 5 minutes a game. See Sestito.

 

But I'm not aware of a team that bury a 6th D for 4 or 5 minutes.   Even if your top pairing guys play 28 minutes and the 3/4 D man play 20 minutes each. Your 5th and 6 D play 12 minutes a night.  Most don't have two 28 minute D men. There are only 5 or 7 in existence. So bottom pairing D almost all play 14 or 15 minutes a night.

 

You cannot just get a plug D ma, at $2 mill,n for no other purpose than creating a safe working environment? There are just too many minutes you expose yourself to getting walked around in actual hockey.

fair points. He is serviceable and we do need toughness. CGY WPG EDM ANA all very heavy teams. We need more size. I've been saying for years we need size up and down the lineup, not just a couple of big guys. We need guys in top 4 D and in Top 6 forward positions who are heavy and play a physical game. 

 

Hard to find those guys. Lets see what happens at tdl. I don't think Gudbranson lasts the season especially since word is out JB tried to trade him. How does he re sign after that unless we vastly overpay. 

[Blömqvist]

I can't see Benning giving up on Gudbranson so early unless it was a massive overpayment. Considering the original rumour that the Canucks were interested in Demers was from late June, and Pierre LeBrun's nixed trade tweet was on July 1st, I wonder if there was a deal at the draft that involved swapping picks, and the information that came out was actually late.

 

For example, a deal involving Gudbranson, VAN 2nd, and CLB 2nd for Demers no salary retained and FLA 1st (10th overall pick) would and should be a trade that Benning makes 11/10 times. Anything less and the optics of the deal would be terrible. Lopsided trade indeed, but Tallon drafted Gudbranson with the hopes that he can be both a cornerstone defenseman and captain of the team and now wants him back.

[Canuck Surfer]

Just now, WHL rocks said:

 

fair points. 

Thanks, WHL!

 

The closest equivalent recently (? to my memory) was when Calgary paid Engelland $2.9 mill 3 years ago. He could take care of himself, and not be a matchup problem on ice.