Rise of far right in Europe

[JM_]

12 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I’m skeptical of almost all sources of government-collected and distributed data on these subjects. I am fully aware of the depth of the social engineering happening. 

 

I will not argue with someone who thinks CNN is a reputable source of ‘information’. It’s not that I am on the side of Fox, either. None of them is closer to the truth. 

 

We could try to engage actual European stakeholders who have a first-hand perspective on these things. 

 

Have you seen seen current footage of the streets of some of the iconic Europeans cities or their transit stations, etc? 

Hear from the indigenous residents about their stories? 

 

There appears to be a very different reality portrayed in the media than these people and footage suggests. 

yeah cable news isn't much use if you're looking for information I'll grant you that. Info-tainment a lot of the time.

 

But I'm sure you'd agree that there's a lot of right wing populism going on too that is just as full of BS as the lefty stuff. 

 

I personally think you're going to far on the gov't stats thing.

 

So if we're left with first-hand:

 

My wife has family in Italy and a cousin in Turkey. I haven't heard of them having any concerns, they seem much more concerned over things like Italy going bankrupt from 30 years of financial mismanagement. 

 

My sister in law is from South Africa, her bro and his wife were tied up and robbed at their farm I guess about 10 years ago or so, pretty horrific experience for them. Not sure what that has to do with migration but they also didn't go alt-right, they just moved to Australia and started a fishing tour boat business. 

 

I think we have to go back and find some statistics sources that you can trust to go much father than this. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Jimmy McGill

[canuckistani]

1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I’m listening. Point accepted. 

 

Let nobody confuse me with being the most skillful wordsmith or careful presenter of words and ideas to convey a point in here, or in general. I get by, but leave much of the intelligent debate to others. 

 

This thread is a subject that sees all sorts of wordy PC navigation to avoid stepping in something easily labelled as a negative.  

 

I don’t have to tell you that, but I want readers to know that I exercise an economy of words when I write here for the sake of time. Combined with an inherent lack of knowledge, I am a political bomb, I admit. However, I am ever-seeking truth through engaging other perspectives as best I can, without much fear of being immediately disqualified by those looking to dismiss ideas because of poorly constructed or worded comments. As long as it a genuine discussion and not a morality-display or contest, I enjoy the ride. 

 

I welcome your views on the subject of what you define as a ‘mass refugee program’.

 

Ultimately, I’m seeking your unbiased views on what merit the far right, as we call them, have concerning it’s anti mass migration stance, relative to this definition, including the purpose of such a feat of social engineering. 

Ok, i will entertain. 

A:  What right wing is right on:

 

1. Islam

 

The existential threat faced by non-muslim ethos & legal framework in the face of Islam. Its deeply ironic, because the western right is composed mostly of racists or christians and perhaps it takes one to know one, but I do not find it surprising that the practitioners of the most sanctimoniously conversion-happy & corrupt faith concieved by humanity ( Christianity) are the first in the west to notice an existential crisis with their Islamic counterpart - less devious and corrupt in their conversion sprees, but far more ruthless, with far more monolithic approach to preachership and conversions. 

The simple fact of the matter is, Islam, by objective benchmarks of history and current affairs, is the least co-existentialist ideology of the masses. There are religious frictions in the majority of nations that have a significant Islamic minority ( Israel, India, Singapore, UK, Phillipines, Thailand, Burma). The overwhelming majority of Islam dominated nations pay little or no heed to secular law or equal rights of other religions. The countries where Islam is almost a majority/slim majority, are mostly seeing open religious warfare ( Nigeria) or long endemic insurgencies ( Ethiopia, Lebanon etc). The conclusion is simple: Islam is not going to co-exist with non-Islamic anything in the public space. 

The west is starting to see the effects with sudden large pulses of muslims arriving in some western countries.  

 

The left are absolutely wrong on this, because their doctrinal experiences with Christians have convinced them that its more of the same, just Christianity under a head-dress, big beards and brown guys. They couldn't be more wrong. Islam is to Christianity what a Ferrari is to the Ford Model T. It is linear, it is consistent, it is almost completely impervious to external theological influences and is a much leaner, meaner, machine. Which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone - Islam is not a hodge podge of books written by a dozen plus people spanning more than 500 years, its one book, from one man, in one lifetime. 

 

2. Right to sovereign borders and sovereign statehood. 

 

This is more nuanced than I expected, because the right-wing often confuses 'sovereign borders' with ' populism of the residents in the said sovereign borders'. Yet, there are some educated in the right who can avoid this confusion and differentiate the right to sovereign borders and sovereign statehood simply as ' Britain/Hungary/Canada/<insert country here> says no to global initiative/pact xyz and withdraw'. 

They currently identify multinational corporations as a threat to the sovereign status of nations and that clash is going to exist for a long, long time. This clash is due to two realities clashing :

 

i) modern travel & communication system means manpower and especially capital, are impervious to borders acting as a barrier. In other words, good luck stopping the flow of currency and people from one point of the planet to another. Ain't gonna happen.

 

ii) All our systemic political and actual (ie military) power comes from the basis of nation states. They are the ones who hold the ultimate mandate of policy affecting their citizens and rest of the world they wish to impact (passively, via trade rules or actively, via wars, for eg) and its them who hold the ultimate mandate in raising troops, police and actually doling out power. 

I have no answer to this one, because this requires greater minds than me, to find where the middle ground of global connectivity and ultimate power emminetting from sovereign entities are. 

 

B: What the right is wrong about:

 

1. Muslims. 

 

While Islam and spread of Islam is an undeniable existential threat to all non-Islamic paradigms, the right gets this ludicrously wrong and fuels a negative feedback cycle by discriminating against muslims. For one, the individual muslim is extremely unlikely to be at fault for actively spreading Islam or coercing people/<insert more aggressive modes>. For two, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Even if Islam is a threat, far greater success can be had by just co-opting the tiny fraction of muslims and using our social and numeric force multipliers in social context to erase the practice of the aspects of Islam that clash with our ethos ( eg: Sharia). But if the racist idiots keep going ' go home you rag-headed muzzie', then the muslim folk will correctly surmise ' screw you, i am here to stay, you are my enemy and i am going to turn even more to my faith to fight you'. Ie, negative feedback cycle 101. 

 

2. Multiculturalism. 

 

This stems from a few places: racism, confusion towards who exactly are muslims and relatively low skill factor outside of trades and professional disciplines. The western right has to realize, that the vast majority of the planet are actually BETTER than them in terms of getting along and minding their own business. Look at the Chinese in Vancouver. Or the Indians in Surrey. Except for a tryst with politicized terrorism, neither of these communities have had any existential problems in Canada. Look at UK. The overwhelming majority of hate crime being committed are either by or towards muslims there. Yet, UK has nearly as many hindus, more Sikhs than Canada and countless practitioners of Chinese folk religions. 
The rest of the world, aka the Latinos, Asians, Africans, etc. are *not* the problem. If anything, they are on average more hardworking, easier to assimilate and handle stress and far more enriching of the modern multicultural experience. 
But with the right, they throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. I am not Chinese, I do not speak more than 5 words of Mandarin and I absolutely do not mind Richmond looking like Hong Kong. 

People can eat what they want, dress what they want, put up signs about 'shop here/50% off' etc in whatever language they want. You do not have the right to racial integrity. nobody does. Because it never existed. Blonde hair is less than 20,000 years old. Blue eyes are from 25,000 years or less ago. To try and preserve these quirks of humanity, is ignorant assinity and actual biological fails in the long term. 


I wanted to be more concise than this, but i suppose this will have to do. Regards.

[CBH1926]

Far right attacks are getting deadlier.

German gunman kills nine in attack on migrant bars

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN20D2VG

 

[Warhippy]

8 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

Far right attacks are getting deadlier.

German gunman kills nine in attack on migrant bars

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN20D2VG

 

There's a reason numerous G20 nations are declaring far right groups extremist or terror threats

[CBH1926]

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

There's a reason numerous G20 nations are declaring far right groups extremist or terror threats

As long as the economy is doing well, things will remain somewhat under control.

When the economy goes south in the US and China.

Western Europe will start to resemble Germany after the 1930 election.

Edited February 21, 2020 by CBH1926

[Warhippy]

7 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

As long as the economy is doing well, things will remain somewhat under control.

When the economy goes south in the US and China.

Western Europe will start to resemble Germany after the 1930 election.

To be honest, I expect it more out of America after the next election and inevitable economic crash.

[CBH1926]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

To be honest, I expect it more out of America after the next election and inevitable economic crash.

America has huge wealth discrepancy with millions living in poverty, it’s been like that since gilded age.

Europe has always had great social net hence the reason constant protests in France, Greece and Italy over those cuts.

Just like in 1929, lines for soup kitchens in Toronto were just as long as the ones in N.Y.C.

In Europe on the other hand fascists and communist started to win in 1930s leading to WW2.

Also immigrants are for the most part well integrated in North America, Europe on the other hand not so much.

  

 

 

[Violator]

The more things change the worse it will get.doesnt seem like europe can handle the far right problem.

[Alflives]

11 minutes ago, Violator said:

The more things change the worse it will get.doesnt seem like europe can handle the far right problem.

Citizens move their allegiance politically when they feel unsafe in their neighbourhoods, and are having trouble making ends meet financially because taxes are too high.  The more socialist a government becomes the more right wing the citizens begin to feel.  Over time, the right wing grows in numbers to a point where they win power.  Then austerity measures are enacted which causes the public to think left.  It’s a cycle.  The horrible part is war (civil and international) occur during the cycles.  Sadly There is war coming in Europe.  History repeats.  

[kingofsurrey]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Citizens move their allegiance politically when they feel unsafe in their neighbourhoods, and are having trouble making ends meet financially because taxes are too high.  The more socialist a government becomes the more right wing the citizens begin to feel.  Over time, the right wing grows in numbers to a point where they win power.  Then austerity measures are enacted which causes the public to think left.  It’s a cycle.  The horrible part is war (civil and international) occur during the cycles.  Sadly There is war coming in Europe.  History repeats.  

[bishopshodan]

Raise of the Far right in Europe.

 

If he's too young to charge but has had this much influence, charge the damn parents.

Ugh, and I've moaned about this before.....unsupervised access to the internet for developing minds is soo F'n bad.

Neo-Nazi ‘commander’ unmasked as 13-year-old kid in Estonia

https://globalnews.ca/news/6831754/neo-nazi-commander-13/

 

 

[Ryan Strome]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

Raise of the Far right in Europe.

 

If he's too young to charge but has had this much influence, charge the damn parents.

Ugh, and I've moaned about this before.....unsupervised access to the internet for developing minds is soo F'n bad.

Neo-Nazi ‘commander’ unmasked as 13-year-old kid in Estonia

https://globalnews.ca/news/6831754/neo-nazi-commander-13/

 

 

You know what baffles me, given the Soviet union took the biggest hit of any in ww2 it boggles my mind Russia, Ukraine, easter Europe has so many nazis today.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

2 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

You know what baffles me, given the Soviet union took the biggest hit of any in ww2 it boggles my mind Russia, Ukraine, easter Europe has so many nazis today.

Far right or far left - pretty much interchangeable.  Look how positive the people of Vietnam view the US (and it's people) today.  Pretty much the highest of any other country in the world.  And that's not THAT long after all the devastation inflicted on that country during that "police action".  Granted, it's more a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" (and China *IS* flexing it's muscles).

[Ryan Strome]

3 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Far right or far left - pretty much interchangeable.  Look how positive the people of Vietnam view the US (and it's people) today.  Pretty much the highest of any other country in the world.  And that's not THAT long after all the devastation inflicted on that country during that "police action".  Granted, it's more a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" (and China *IS* flexing it's muscles).

Agreed. However given the Soviet union ruled eastern Europe till what 91 I think?? I would think they would have stamped out any nazism. 

[Tortorella's Rant]

46 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

You know what baffles me, given the Soviet union took the biggest hit of any in ww2 it boggles my mind Russia, Ukraine, easter Europe has so many nazis today.

They've always existed in some capacity but poor economic conditions breed fascists 

[Ryan Strome]

25 minutes ago, Tortorella's Rant said:

They've always existed in some capacity but poor economic conditions breed fascists 

I suppose you are correct. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, Ryan Strome said:

Agreed. However given the Soviet union ruled eastern Europe till what 91 I think?? I would think they would have stamped out any nazism. 

I'm just guessing, but sometimes a despotic regime is able to maintain it's hold on the populace by having a "boogeyman" (real or imagined) in place.

[Boudrias]

2 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

You know what baffles me, given the Soviet union took the biggest hit of any in ww2 it boggles my mind Russia, Ukraine, easter Europe has so many nazis today.

There were over a million Russians fighting for the Nazis in WW II. Many Russians hated the communist, especially the Ukrainians. The Dutch had 2 divisions of volunteers fighting the Russians. 

[Ryan Strome]

10 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

There were over a million Russians fighting for the Nazis in WW II. Many Russians hated the communist, especially the Ukrainians. The Dutch had 2 divisions of volunteers fighting the Russians. 

I did know this, in fact the Ukrainians viewed the germans as liberators. Forget the General's name(maybe Pallas spelling) but he wanted to arm them and help fight Russia but instead the nazi government sent the ss.

That being said I thought decades of Soviet rule would have hammered home how bad nazism was.

[CBH1926]

2 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

You know what baffles me, given the Soviet union took the biggest hit of any in ww2 it boggles my mind Russia, Ukraine, easter Europe has so many nazis today.

Great article from Der Spiegel that details help that Germany had in WW2.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-dark-continent-hitler-s-european-holocaust-helpers-a-625824.html