Whitehouse Visit

[Undrafted]

On 9/28/2017 at 10:30 AM, Sbriggs said:

True. There are exception to every rule and I know there are good people everywhere.

I'm also going to disagree with the phrase "exception to the rule"--it infers that there's only a small percentage of whites in the US South who aren't racist and I know that's not true.  The sportscaster in the article I linked isn't some "lone wolf white knight" in Dallas.

 

The truth is that like most places in North America, it's a case of proportions and as many studies have shown, urban centres are less racist than in rural areas.  It's more pronounced in the US South because the rural white population have been far more resistant to equality because of the long-standing tradition of racism.

 

The same applies here in Canada.  It's not a coincidence that the most conservative people in this country live in rural areas.  I'd feel far safer visiting Houston, Dallas or Atlanta than I would going to a small-town in here in Canada

[ForsbergTheGreat]

26 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

There's a major difference between "simply talking to them" and being frisked and manhandled on the street without reasonable cause.  At the end of the encounter you describe, once your innocence was established, they DID explain it to you and they DID have reasonable cause for their actions.  In my experience, the police had ZERO reason to stop and search me, unless you count being young and visibly non-white as "just cause".

It you were walking around late at night in a high crime rate where suspicious clothing, yes I would be ok with that.  Black or white if a person looks like they are up to no good, check up on them.  The police are in the business of preventing crime.  I honestly don't believe police our going out of their way just to be a nuisance to certain race simply because they have nothing better to do.

 

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Would you not find it offensive if they did that to random white people because they might part of the Mafia?  Because they look like they walked off the set of the Sopranos?  Or because they have tattoos, they might be part of a biker gang? 

No I wouldn't.  It's better to be safe and check on people then to find out you didn't check up and someone got killed because of it.  If a person looks like they are dealing drugs or is up to no good, by all means go intervene with that person, white or black.  If it's 2am and i'm walking down the dark street known for crime, police have every right find out more. If you're walking down town out of a starbucks at 8am in suit, you likely aren't going to get randomly searched.

 

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Then what is your stance on racial profiling?  Do you think that's a legit practice?  Toronto Police are currently fighting tooth and nail to keep a practice known as "carding", which is when they stop people at random, interrogate them on the street (including demanding the subject tell who their friends are, where they generally hang out, who else they know in those places, etc.) and that information is sent to and kept in a police database.  In spite of the fact that this practice is aimed primarily at blacks in Toronto, the TPS claims it's NOT racial profiling.

 

I'm ok with carding as long as the cause of suspicion has more to do than simply because of the persons skin colour. If a person looks suspicious it shouldn't matter what colour they are.  suspicious activity is still suspicious activity. 

 

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I understand what you're trying to say in the part I bolded above, but the fact is there is a significant number of whites who DON'T agree with that.  Remember Harper's reference to "old-stock Canadians"?  I was born here but it doesn't take a genius to realize that I'm not part of that.  Look at all the people blindly opposed to Muslims, just because they're Muslims.  They're not a "fringe" element, those people are numerous enough to serve as a political 'base' for neo-conservative dog-whistles.

This is a touchy subject, but there's a difference of wanting people to assimilate vs just not liking someone because of their race/religion. 

 

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I'm not a fan of social media and I don't participate--no Twitter, no Facebook or anything else.  And to me, part of the problem is that much of this debate is being made in "140 chars or less" (now 280, but really, that doesn't help).  Why?  Because that just feeds into simplistic, binary "for/against" battles.  That is how demagogues like 45 divide the population, even on subjects that aren't about race.  Case in point: his infamous tweet "Who knew Healthcare could be so complicated?" 

 

That is why demagogues in general are dangerous to politics: they claim pretty much everything--whether it's the economy, terrorism, crime, whatever--can be solved with simplistic solutions and that simplicity appeals to their intellectually lazy base.

Sure they are dangerous but so are the

 

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I realize that the term "white privilege" is the now-established way of referring to the issue, but the problem existed long before that.  Years before that term emerged in the media, I used to call it something else, but it's not short enough to be ever used as a hashtag.  The way I used to describe it was "we may be equal under the eyes of the law, but we are NOT equal under the eyes of society."  That was as close as I could come to encapsulating the complex issues of equality, and not just along racial lines: women could say exactly the same as well.  Even then, my description is woefully inadequate when it comes to explaining or describing the problem: it only really says that legislation alone can NOT solve the problem.

 

I going to be honest, That term really frustrates me and it's extremely narrow minded.  To me people that term is just a way for lazy people to point at someone else for there own setbacks in life.  I didn't achieve (blank) because i didn't have the benefits of (blank).  We all go through our own struggles, race isn't the only thing people deal with in their lives, life is tough and it's also not equal.   Not one single person can simply look at another persons skin colour and think that they have had it easier than you.  It's a garbage excuse.  For some reason its become a fad to try to victimizes ourselves.  The bigger victim people portray themselves, the bigger the reward/benefits they think they deserve. IF there's one term that bothers me, it's that term, i find it extremely offensive..

 

[Rob_Zepp]

Wow, some pretty extended thoughts on this.   Hasn't anyone considered that we all live in a democracy and in the US they made a choice and now don't like it so instead of saying "I will vote differently next time" they are holding their breath until they turn red etc.

 

Back to the Penguins, why not go?   If they feel there is something to say they can go and say "Mr President, we appreciate the invitation but we don't agree with all your policies" or similar.   Just not going says what?   They don't like democracy?   

 

Go back to your black versus white or whatever you are all arguing about - just seems that you can disagree with someone and still accept their invitation.

[Undrafted]

3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

It you were walking around late at night in a high crime rate where suspicious clothing, yes I would be ok with that.  Black or white if a person looks like they are up to no good, check up on them.  The police are in the business of preventing crime.  I honestly don't believe police our going out of their way just to be a nuisance to certain race simply because they have nothing better to do.

But that's the problem: I wasn't in a "high-crime area late at night" in any of the circumstances in question.  Three of those times were in broad daylight during business hours, none of them occurred past midnight.  One instance in the late 80s cost me my job because they made me late for an afternoon shift--when I told my boss, he said it was MY fault for wearing a Public Enemy t-shirt and having long dreadlocks (when he said that, it didn't matter if he fired me, I would've quit for that). 
 

 

3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I'm ok with carding as long as the cause of suspicion has more to do than simply because of the persons skin colour. If a person looks suspicious it shouldn't matter what colour they are.  suspicious activity is still suspicious activity. 

But that's the thing: when they card, it has nothing to do with 'suspicious activity', unless "driving while black" or simply being more than two black kids hanging together constitutes 'suspicious activity'.  And the reason why it doesn't bother you is because it doesn't happen to you or anyone else you know, or even anyone you might identify or sympathize with.

 

 

28 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I going to be honest, That term really frustrates me and it's extremely narrow minded.  To me people that term is just a way for lazy people to point at someone else for there own setbacks in life.  I didn't achieve (blank) because i didn't have the benefits of (blank).  We all go through our own struggles, race isn't the only thing people deal with in their lives, life is tough and it's also not equal.   Not one single person can simply look at another persons skin colour and think that they have had it easier than you.  It's a garbage excuse.  For some reason its become a fad to try to victimizes ourselves.  The bigger victim people portray themselves, the bigger the reward/benefits they think they deserve.

I don't think you understand WHY the subject of "white privilege" comes up.  It's not about victimization or making excuses.  I've worked my way up to a fairly comfortable existence; now that I'm old, I don't get stopped by the cops at random--I'm less at risk these days.  But it still infuriates me at a visceral level when I read about it happening to others; it's NOT just an abstraction to me.  I'm dismayed at how what little progress that was made is unraveling because Trump has emboldened racists who were hiding in the closet before.

 

It's about trying to get white people to acknowledge that the problem still exists in spite of legislation.  It's about the underlying culture of racism that still exists in our society.  That's what I mean when I say we're equal under the eyes of the law, but not society.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

11 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

But that's the problem: I wasn't in a "high-crime area late at night" in any of the circumstances in question.  Three of those times were in broad daylight during business hours, none of them occurred past midnight.  One instance in the late 80s cost me my job because they made me late for an afternoon shift--when I told my boss, he said it was MY fault for wearing a Public Enemy t-shirt and having long dreadlocks (when he said that, it didn't matter if he fired me, I would've quit for that). 
 

 

 

Thats 30 some years ago. The world has changed quite a bit since. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

But that's the thing: when they card, it has nothing to do with 'suspicious activity', unless "driving while black" or simply being more than two black kids hanging together constitutes 'suspicious activity'.  And the reason why it doesn't bother you is because it doesn't happen to you or anyone else you know, or even anyone you might identify or sympathize with.

 

 

 

I dont agree with it then. If a person is looking suspicious it doesnt matter the colour. Another question is, has crime rate went down since 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

I don't think you understand WHY the subject of "white privilege" comes up.  It's not about victimization or making excuses.  I've worked my way up to a fairly comfortable existence; now that I'm old, I don't get stopped by the cops at random--I'm less at risk these days.  But it still infuriates me at a visceral level when I read about it happening to others; it's NOT just an abstraction to me.  I'm dismayed at how what little progress that was made is unraveling because Trump has emboldened racists who were hiding in the closet before.

 

It's about trying to get white people to acknowledge that the problem still exists in spite of legislation.  It's about the underlying culture of racism that still exists in our society.  That's what I mean when I say we're equal under the eyes of the law, but not society.

Stating white privileged is pointing out that white people have an advantage over non whites. Which is utter BS. You don't know what people go through. No one has any right to think another person has it easy in life or an advantage over another.  

[Undrafted]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Thats 30 some years ago. The world has changed quite a bit since. 

 

I dont agree with it then. If a person is looking suspicious it doesnt matter the colour. Another question is, has crime rate went down since 

 

 

Stating white privileged is pointing out that white people have an advantage over non whites. Which is utter BS. You don't know what people go through. No one has any right to think another person has it easy in life or an advantage over another.  

Actually, I'm sad to say that when it comes to a lot of things, the world hasn't changed as much as you think when it comes to race relations.  If what I experienced had stopped since 30 years ago, then perhaps you'd have a point.  But it hasn't.  What's more, you can't look at current conditions in a vacuum; you can't ignore history.

 

And yes, whites do have advantages over non-whites, whether you want to accept that or not.  Do you think a school in a predominantly black neighbourhood in a US city is the same quality as a school in a white suburb?  The answer is no, obviously not.  Successful non-whites (and women as a whole) have to work a lot harder and fight through more barriers than white males--that's a fact.

 

When I say "equal under the eyes of the law, not society", what you're citing is the "equal under the eyes of the law" part only.

[Sbriggs]

Just now, Undrafted said:

Actually, I'm sad to say that when it comes to a lot of things, the world hasn't changed as much as you think when it comes to race relations.  If what I experienced had stopped since 30 years ago, then perhaps you'd have a point.  But it hasn't.  What's more, you can't look at current conditions in a vacuum; you can't ignore history.

 

And yes, whites do have advantages over non-whites, whether you want to accept that or not.  Do you think a school in a predominantly black neighbourhood in a US city is the same quality as a school in a white suburb?  The answer is no, obviously not.  Successful non-whites (and women as a whole) have to work a lot harder and fight through more barriers than white males--that's a fact.

 

When I say "equal under the eyes of the law, not society", what you're citing is the "equal under the eyes of the law" part only.

Its funny you have to explain these kinds of facts about suppression and equality in North America  in todays day and age. I thought this would be an easy topic being from Canada but I can see that its not and we have uneducated people here in our own country. Sometimes I feel bad because I'm white.

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, Undrafted said:

Actually, I'm sad to say that when it comes to a lot of things, the world hasn't changed as much as you think when it comes to race relations.  If what I experienced had stopped since 30 years ago, then perhaps you'd have a point.  But it hasn't.  What's more, you can't look at current conditions in a vacuum; you can't ignore history.

 

And yes, whites do have advantages over non-whites, whether you want to accept that or not.  Do you think a school in a predominantly black neighbourhood in a US city is the same quality as a school in a white suburb?  The answer is no, obviously not.  Successful non-whites (and women as a whole) have to work a lot harder and fight through more barriers than white males--that's a fact.

 

When I say "equal under the eyes of the law, not society", what you're citing is the "equal under the eyes of the law" part only.

For the sake of understanding your views, please provide advantages I have over any other colour, as a white guy, in your world, wherever that is. 

 

If youre context assumes that history plays a role in the equation, it won't be so easy. 

 

Name one institutional advantage a white man has today.

Can you do the reciprocal here and name disadvantages Whites face today?

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, Sbriggs said:

Its funny you have to explain these kinds of facts about suppression and equality in North America  in todays day and age. I thought this would be an easy topic being from Canada but I can see that its not and we have uneducated people here in our own country. Sometimes I feel bad because I'm white.

Are you much of a social media or TV watcher? 

Tell me how you could oppress a non-white person with your whiteness. 

 

[Undrafted]

1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

For the sake of understanding your views, please provide advantages I have over any other colour, as a white guy, in your world, wherever that is. 

 

If youre context assumes that history plays a role in the equation, it won't be so easy. 

 

Name one institutional advantage a white man has today.

Can you do the reciprocal here and name disadvantages Whites face today?

I already did.  Better quality schools wasn't enough for you?

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, Undrafted said:

I already did.  Better quality schools wasn't enough for you?

Assume

Making asses out of people since...

You don't have to choose to profile my life. 

How old are you? I think age matters as it's a generational thing concerning some aspects discussed in here. I'm 43, like I said. Grew up dirt poor. Grew up in many $&!# holes, in $&!#ty towns and went to $&!#ty schools. I suffered greatly from this white guilt thing. Barriers were nothing to a poor white kid. Nobody but a race of another pigment would get that. 

[Undrafted]

2 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

Its funny you have to explain these kinds of facts about suppression and equality in North America  in todays day and age. I thought this would be an easy topic being from Canada but I can see that its not and we have uneducated people here in our own country. Sometimes I feel bad because I'm white.

No one is telling you or asking you to feel bad because you're white, so don't--it doesn't help and that's not really the point.  It's about acknowledging that the problem exists and addressing it, instead of sweeping it under the rug

[189lb enforcers?]

Just went online and showed my white privilege card.

Got me a bunch of scholarships - to all-white schools too.

 

Maybe that is the educshun I need to understand this thread. 

[Undrafted]

Just now, 189lb enforcers? said:

Assume

Making asses out of people since...

You don't have to choose to profile my life. 

How old are you? I think age matters as it's a generational thing concerning some aspects discussed in here. I'm 43, like I said. Grew up dirt poor. Grew up in many $&!# holes, in $&!#ty towns and went to $&!#ty schools. I suffered greatly from this white guilt thing. Barriers were nothing to a poor white kid. Nobody but a race of another pigment would get that. 

You asked for an "example of an institutional advantage a white man has today".  Those were your exact words.   I gave it to you.  I'm done with you

[189lb enforcers?]

2 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

No one is telling you or asking you to feel bad because you're white, so don't--it doesn't help and that's not really the point.  It's about acknowledging that the problem exists and addressing it, instead of sweeping it under the rug

Ahh, a glimmer of hope...

what problem is being swept under the rug and why whom?

 

I will be right beside you to fight racism. This means racism against anyone. This is the difference between you and I. 

[189lb enforcers?]

1 minute ago, Undrafted said:

You asked for an "example of an institutional advantage a white man has today".  Those were your exact words.   I gave it to you.  I'm done with you

Prove to me that the white majority isn't actively working on your claims of racism to the point of quota laws that actually discriminate against white people.

 

its the only institutional racism you will find. Prove me wrong. 

[189lb enforcers?]

9 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

No one is telling you or asking you to feel bad because you're white, so don't--it doesn't help and that's not really the point.  It's about acknowledging that the problem exists and addressing it, instead of sweeping it under the rug

You're dividing people's here. You're racially profiling and offering up repeated prejudices in here like a racist. Now you're dismissing me because I'm white, as has been seen in here with other posters. 

Youre actively partipating in that of which you despise. 

You are a r...

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

3 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

Actually, I'm sad to say that when it comes to a lot of things, the world hasn't changed as much as you think when it comes to race relations.  If what I experienced had stopped since 30 years ago, then perhaps you'd have a point.  But it hasn't.  What's more, you can't look at current conditions in a vacuum; you can't ignore history.

Didn't you just say.  "now that I'm old, I don't get stopped by the cops at random".  Apparently to you it's changed.

 

3 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

And yes, whites do have advantages over non-whites, whether you want to accept that or not.  Do you think a school in a predominantly black neighbourhood in a US city is the same quality as a school in a white suburb?  The answer is no, obviously not. 

 

 

Why do you think that is?  Is it simply because people feel the need to give blacks less? No it's because good teachers go to people willing to pay more.  Good teachers go to areas that are safer.   Again My wife’s mom is the perfect example of this, she got paid pretty good money to teach on a fly in native reserve in Alberta.  But because of the living conditions and the terrible quality of life that my wife had (as a young girl) living there, my mother inlaw decided to leave.  Whose fault is that?

 

I would also argue that that quality of a school in low income white neighborhoods in the US are just as bad. 

 

You don't realize it but you're pointing fingers and blaming others. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

Successful non-whites (and women as a whole) have to work a lot harder and fight through more barriers than white males--that's a fact.

 

I'm sorry but your facts are BS. Case en point....

http://www.aei.org/publication/acceptance-rates-at-us-medical-schools-in-2015-reveal-ongoing-discrimination-against-asian-americans-and-whites/

 

3 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

When I say "equal under the eyes of the law, not society", what you're citing is the "equal under the eyes of the law" part only.

I'm sorry but you saying white males don't have the same barriers is a lazy personal opinion for you to victimize yourself.  It's not true. 

[189lb enforcers?]

27 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

 Sometimes I feel bad because I'm white.

Take a knee. Take two. 

 

[Undrafted]

1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Prove to me that the white majority isn't actively working on your claims of racism to the point of quota laws that actually discriminate against white people.

 

its the only institutional racism you will find. Prove me wrong. 

This is the absolute last time I respond to you.

 

I gave you a basic example of how in general, whites have an advantage over non-whites.  When I gave you that answer, you then made it all about YOU and your situation.  Your experience is not even remotely representative of all whites; by the same token, PK Subban's experience is not remotely representative of all blacks (to which he will acknowledge, at least).

 

We don't have quotas in Canada.  In the US, Affirmative Action was put in place because in spite of being more qualified than white candidates, non-whites were routinely passed over. 

 

AA doesn't affect low-to-mid paying jobs in practice--white employers don't care about the race of lower-level employees.  Neither does it affect small businesses with small workforces.

 

It's specifically about the hiring practices for high-level paying jobs that carry authority: most notably, upper management jobs at the corporate and government-level because whites at the highest echelon do not want to allow women and minorities into their ranks.  In short, even if they had AA in Canada, it wouldn't affect you or me, either in the present or back when they instituted the program.