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1 hour ago, ilduce39 said:

I watched the first minute of that video and my understanding of white privilege is much different than the straw man that Shapiro started to build with his first sentence.

 

"noone can ever overcome this burden, even if they make the right decisions" - Strawman - my understanding of "white privilege" is that it is an attempt to explain a set of societal / systemic likelihoods and biases that contribute to a disproportionate amount of POC being marginalized -and/or inherent advantages that a statistically disproportionate amount of white people enjoy.

 

It isn't a magical glass ceiling that stops POC from being successful or ensures success for Caucasians. 

 

"America - the freest country ever conceived by man" - That's just funny.

 

"two parent black family vs single parent white family"  Having two parents is more advantageous when it comes to avoiding poverty than skin color.  Thanks Ben.  Any stats comparing two-parent black families vs two parent white families?  Or singe black parents vs single white parents? No?  Didn't think so.  (It's 44% of single-parent blacks in poverty to 22% for white by the way.)

 

"graduate high school, get a job and don't have babies before you're married." - This just reminded me of a case we studied during a class on standardized IQ assessments.  The "Larry P" case in which, in California in the 70s/80s black students were being administered a racially biased IQ test and being disproportionately labelled with intellectual disabilities.  The kicker?  They were then placed in "dead end" streams which resulted in them not being able to graduate.  Along with a history of sub-standard segregated schools and throw in that we know a parent's academic success/attitude impacts children and hey...

 

"not committing crimes privilege" - His crime "facts" are all over the place.  He admits that minority communities are under-policed - which is a bad thing.

 

Further, the cherry picked Moskos quote of "statistically less likely to be shot in a similar situation" is a lie.  It's not a statistic:

 

"Though it goes against the all-cops-are-racist narrative, it's not inconceivable, given an equal threat level, that a white person is actually more likely to be shot by police... it's just speculation...So I am saying that a guy with a gun in the ghetto might actually be less likely to be shot by a cop who is more used to danger and guns."

 

http://www.copinthehood.com/2015/04/killed-by-police-2-of-3-race.html

 

....he also says: " The odds that a black man will be shot and killed by a police officer is about 1 in 60,000. For a white man those odds are 1 in 200,000." 

 

He quotes Roland Fryer's study as showing "black suspects are shot significantly less often than white suspects in comparable situations."

 

Fryer says: " A new study on police force found no bias against black civilians in police shootings in 10 cities and counties, including Houston. It did find bias against blacks in every other type of force, like the use of hands or batons."  It also relied on data offered by departments - some declined. 

 

"in particular a paper published in PLOS ONE by Cody T. Ross. That paper, “A Multi-Level Bayesian Analysis of Racial Bias in Police Shootings at the County-Level in the United States, 2011–2014,” found that the chance of being black, unarmed and shot by the police was about 3.5 times the chance of being white, unarmed and shot by the police."

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/upshot/roland-fryer-answers-reader-questions-about-his-police-force-study.html

 

The guy talks about who is more likely to shoot unarmed black suspects... Jesus... the fact that unarmed black (or any!) suspects are being shot is the problem.

 

Which I think deserves national debate, discussion and research beyond "make some better decisions."

 

"decision privilege" - This is the crux of the straw man.  Ben spouts a bunch of basic "how to's" of success but the effect is to feed the biases that his followers assume POC are doing (committing crimes, making babies, doing drugs, complaining about white people), absolves society of any responsibility and shuts down any debate on very real systemic/societal problems - either present or ones of the past that can still be felt.

 

The "Asian privilege" actually ties in well here.  The article admits that most Asian immigrants have money and/or specialized education.  Those are HUGE advantages.  Then it drifts off into the usual gobbeldygook that the privileged espouse to justify their place in society.  Drop an average impoverished Asian rather than the intellectual and financial elite that they let in and see how they do. I know it because I've lived it - my parents are together, own their own home and both have post-secondary education.  I won the lottery. 

 

POC in America disproportionately don't enjoy that - a history of segregated schools, broken families, poverty, being "illegal," speaking a different language, growing up in high crime/ or drug addicted neighborhoods... same goes with First Nations people in Canada.  Not to mention lasting social stigma and marginalization. 

 

Ben Shapiro's silly little "make good decisions" rant may be built around some truths regarding of self-determination (as all straw men are - obviously good decisions help) but it's a super lazy attempt to refute the idea of "white privilege" which attempts to address the reasons for disproportionate success along racial lines.  Not to mention ignoring the fact that, on average, many POC are born into lives that bring extra challenges.

 

(Honestly, I'm more on board with an economic lens, but that's scarily Marxist to some.)

I'm not going to break down everything you stated because I'm actually enjoying the canucks game, but maybe after I will.  

 

But what I will say is, what you are doing is picking a few stats and simply assuming inequality, just like people do with the women pay gap theory.   It's no different than when people look at the amount of cups won by a non Canadian teams in the last 20 years and then people cry out that it's not fair and they Bettman rigs the league towards american teams.  Context is needed when looking at stats, that's were the left completely fail.  That's what Shapiro adds.  You can call strawman all you want but context is important when before jumping to a conclusion and crying victim. 

 

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17 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to break down everything you stated because I'm actually enjoying the canucks game, but maybe after I will.  

 

But what I will say is, what you are doing is picking a few stats and simply assuming inequality, just like people do with the women pay gap theory.   It's no different than when people look at the amount of cups won by a non Canadian teams in the last 20 years and then people cry out that it's not fair and they Bettman rigs the league towards american teams.  Context is needed when looking at stats, that's were the left completely fail.  That's what Shapiro adds.  You can call strawman all you want but context is important when before jumping to a conclusion and crying victim. 

 

I'm not crying victim and the idea of white privilege isn't either.

 

Being born into a situation, certain factors convey an advantage in life - if you use the lens of "race" in the USA white people enjoy those factors more often than POC. Those are the stats and that's the crux of it.

 

Where the discussion goes from there can be anything.

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46 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

I'm not crying victim and the idea of white privilege isn't either.

 

Being born into a situation, certain factors convey an advantage in life - if you use the lens of "race" in the USA white people enjoy those factors more often than POC. Those are the stats and that's the crux of it.

 

Where the discussion goes from there can be anything.

Being born into a situation isn't simply a factor of race. It's a factor of decision making, is it your fault that your parents stayed married and both got a post secondary education?  Should disadvantages be giving to you to level the playing field?

 

The left is so focussed on trying to find equality that they don't realize what they propose is the opposite of equality.  Milton Friedman said it best.

"The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither."

 

Equality shouldn't be focussed on everyone having the same outcomes, it should be that everyone has the same freedoms.  Freedom leaves the outcomes up to individuals. yes not everyone is going to end up with the same outcome but not everyone makes the same life choices.  

 

Finally using the term white privilege paints a very broad brush.  Do some white people get born into a good family environment? Sure but I know you aren't naive enough to think that ALL white people have the same benefits and that ALL POC don't ever get born into similar situations.  Just think, If you used a term to paint a broad brush to any other race, that would be considered EXTREMELY racist.

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I want to tell you guys a true story that happened on Friday.

 

I'm on my way home from the grocery store.  I see a white guy in his late-50s/early-60s (I'm guessing) in the lobby and he's obviously a visitor since he's getting buzzed in.  He sees me coming up the walkway behind him and makes sure the door closes behind him.  I don't mind that--he can't tell I live there so it's good for building security and obviously, I have the FOB to get in anyway. 

 

But then I notice he's still giving me the "evil eye" while we're waiting for the elevator.  Elevator arrives, we get in.  Guy says to me without bothering to hide his contempt, "Where are YOU from?"

 

I tell him, "I'm a local, I live here."  (Worth noting, I don't have any kind of accent, aside from the 'Canadian neutral' accent)

 

He rolls his eyes and asks again slowly like I don't understand English, "NO.  where.  were.  you.  BORN?"

 

I look him in the eye and mirroring his cadence, I say, "Win-ne-peg"

 

He glares daggers at me as the door opens and I get out at my floor.

 

This is actually something that happens to me a semi-regular basis, although not always word-for-word like that.  Sometimes, they'll just go straight for the "Go back to where you came from!" (I usually answer, "Not interested in moving to Winnipeg, thanks."  I've learned people like that hate it.)

 

The point of the story:  White privilege means never having your citizenship questioned based on your appearance.

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On 9/29/2017 at 1:00 PM, 189lb enforcers? said:

Are you much of a social media or TV watcher? 

Tell me how you could oppress a non-white person with your whiteness. 

 

Because I feel all people should be treated equal and I think it sucks that other racist don't get as good a treatment as myself just because I'm white.

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On 9/29/2017 at 1:07 PM, Undrafted said:

No one is telling you or asking you to feel bad because you're white, so don't--it doesn't help and that's not really the point.  It's about acknowledging that the problem exists and addressing it, instead of sweeping it under the rug

I think your right but its hard to control your feelings and with all the BS going on south of us it seems we are right back in the 60's and it sucks especially after Obama presidency

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2 hours ago, Sbriggs said:

Because I feel all people should be treated equal and I think it sucks that other racist don't get as good a treatment as myself just because I'm white.

That is a great sentiment. Nobody would argue against it. But, and this is where we part ideological ways, white people arent in control of individual decisions by others; regular white people do not get a better shake at entry to universities, etc etc. 

 

It's telling, that we don't hear from poor Asians in here or folks from India who came here and are likely now successful, contributing people, raising quality family structures, in this capatalistic utopia of freedom of opportunity.

 

This has all been about black people being oppressed, so it really doesn't come off as a unity thing at all, just an extension of the well-debunked myths made popular by the social media pressures of BLM. The collective white guilt tank is almost empty and as facts Trump emotional arguments, no pun intended, more folks will fact-check SJ issues... and stop the white guilt routine. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

I think your right but its hard to control your feelings and with all the BS going on south of us it seems we are right back in the 60's and it sucks especially after Obama presidency

How was it better during the Obama years? 

Depending on how you answer will show your depth of knowledge in political science. 

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15 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Being born into a situation isn't simply a factor of race. It's a factor of decision making, is it your fault that your parents stayed married and both got a post secondary education?  Should disadvantages be giving to you to level the playing field?

 

The left is so focussed on trying to find equality that they don't realize what they propose is the opposite of equality.  Milton Friedman said it best.

"The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither."

 

Equality shouldn't be focussed on everyone having the same outcomes, it should be that everyone has the same freedoms.  Freedom leaves the outcomes up to individuals. yes not everyone is going to end up with the same outcome but not everyone makes the same life choices.  

 

Finally using the term white privilege paints a very broad brush.  Do some white people get born into a good family environment? Sure but I know you aren't naive enough to think that ALL white people have the same benefits and that ALL POC don't ever get born into similar situations.  Just think, If you used a term to paint a broad brush to any other race, that would be considered EXTREMELY racist.

I think you misinterpret what those that empathize with the kneeling players are saying. It is not hard to find "inequality". You don't have to search for it. Reacting to those stories when they are in the news is not "trying to find" them. Like the rash of police killing of unarmed black men especially a couple of years back. And subsequent non-charges of those officers. You may have an opinion that its not a problem. But many, especially black folks that have lived their lives with racist attitudes, it remains one. Because it indicates that one race has more freedom of movement etc.. than another.

 

Its still a problem when someone like Sheriff Joe Arpaio uses blatant unprovoked racial profiling to stop and harrass drivers, and is ordered to stop by the courts, and he keeps doing it anyways. Allowing white folks more freedom than those of colour. And has support from the majority of white voters in his district. So he's sent to jail and the person representing ALL of America and its values, the President, pardons him, and is cheered by many for that.

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13 hours ago, Undrafted said:

I want to tell you guys a true story that happened on Friday.

 

I'm on my way home from the grocery store.  I see a white guy in his late-50s/early-60s (I'm guessing) in the lobby and he's obviously a visitor since he's getting buzzed in.  He sees me coming up the walkway behind him and makes sure the door closes behind him.  I don't mind that--he can't tell I live there so it's good for building security and obviously, I have the FOB to get in anyway. 

 

But then I notice he's still giving me the "evil eye" while we're waiting for the elevator.  Elevator arrives, we get in.  Guy says to me without bothering to hide his contempt, "Where are YOU from?"

 

I tell him, "I'm a local, I live here."  (Worth noting, I don't have any kind of accent, aside from the 'Canadian neutral' accent)

 

He rolls his eyes and asks again slowly like I don't understand English, "NO.  where.  were.  you.  BORN?"

 

I look him in the eye and mirroring his cadence, I say, "Win-ne-peg"

 

He glares daggers at me as the door opens and I get out at my floor.

 

This is actually something that happens to me a semi-regular basis, although not always word-for-word like that.  Sometimes, they'll just go straight for the "Go back to where you came from!" (I usually answer, "Not interested in moving to Winnipeg, thanks."  I've learned people like that hate it.)

 

The point of the story:  White privilege means never having your citizenship questioned based on your appearance.

That's funny, i get asked that all that time, in the summer I get a pretty good tan, since I spend a lot of the time on the lake boating. This year I even had a person, in Calgary, start speaking Spanish to me assuming I could understand.  I guess this white privilege is a pretty broad term though.

 

I live in a decent condo complex, last year a pipe broke and it started a small flood in the hall way, because i'm in my early 30's, the neighbours just assumed I was a renter and not an owner due to age, and started yelling at me saying, they hope the owners evict me, they were shocked when I told them "why would i evict myself"  

 

Point is, getting judged on appearance (for good and bad), is just an every day part of life, it's not something only one demographic faces.  Life isn't supposed to be a fairy tale where everyone friendly to each other.  People get picked on for many difference reasons (obesity, ache, cleanliness, status, and even clothing styles). You can't force people to treat everyone nice because the world simply isn't fair.  Not every guy looks like channing tatum, should the rest of us cry victim because we didn't get the same attention from girls that he got?  Seems like according to the left the rest of us men have something to cry about.

 

In university we actually tested this theory out, two people would go into high end, commission based, retail stores, one would dress up in a suit and the other would dress up in casual college attire.  My friend (who is filipino) decided to wear the suit, and I (the white kid) wore the college attire,  guess which one was approached with help first?  My filipino friend was treated like an potential customers, where I was barely recognized.   Appearance sure played a role but it wasn't race that people were focussed on.  

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26 minutes ago, kilgore said:

I think you misinterpret what those that empathize with the kneeling players are saying. It is not hard to find "inequality". You don't have to search for it. Reacting to those stories when they are in the news is not "trying to find" them. Like the rash of police killing of unarmed black men especially a couple of years back. And subsequent non-charges of those officers. You may have an opinion that its not a problem. But many, especially black folks that have lived their lives with racist attitudes, it remains one. Because it indicates that one race has more freedom of movement etc.. than another.

 

But your missing the point, do situations where a black man gets shot by police happen? yes, does that mean we can jump to the conclusion that it's a pure race filled hated from the law enforcement?  Before you answer yes, just consider, more white people are shot and killed by police than blacks..   If the black deaths are race motivated hatred why aren't the white death also considered that?   

 

I'm not denying that there aren't racially motivated situations that happen today, but it's become common fad to simply jump to that conclusion where every situation is purely racially motivated and context is thrown out the window.

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4 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

How was it better during the Obama years? 

Depending on how you answer will show your depth of knowledge in political science. 

Well I am no political scientist, but what I would say is Trump is a divider and racist and Obama at least attempted to bring people together which was hard in the US being there are so many racist people and there history speaks to that.

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30 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

Well I am no political scientist, but what I would say is Trump is a divider and racist and Obama at least attempted to bring people together which was hard in the US being there are so many racist people and there history speaks to that.

Fair enough, Sbriggs. Thanks. To each their own. 

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1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

That's funny, i get asked that all that time, in the summer I get a pretty good tan, since I spend a lot of the time on the lake boating. This year I even had a person, in Calgary, start speaking Spanish to me assuming I could understand.  I guess this white privilege is a pretty broad term though.

That is why I get frustrated with all this talk about "opportunity" and cop shootings and all that.  Yes, those are the more attention-grabbing issues, but for non-whites, "white privilege" is mostly these little innocuous incidents like that which are 1) not newsworthy, and 2) not worth reporting to anybody.  I mean, it doesn't even count as "death by a thousand cuts", it's more like a itchy rash that never goes away--it's not going to kill you or anything but damn, you wish it'd just stop.

 

And the example I gave is just one aspect of the broader picture: there's lots of other micro-racist insults that we have to deal with all the time.

2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Point is, getting judged on appearance (for good and bad), is just an every day part of life, it's not something only one demographic faces.  Life isn't supposed to be a fairy tale where everyone friendly to each other.  People get picked on for many difference reasons (obesity, ache, cleanliness, status, and even clothing styles). You can't force people to treat everyone nice because the world simply isn't fair.  Not every guy looks like channing tatum, should the rest of us cry victim because we didn't get the same attention from girls that he got?  Seems like according to the left the rest of us men have something to cry about.

It's one thing to be judged negatively because of your appearance, but I brought up that type of incident specifically because it applies specifically to the notion that we non-whites "don't belong in the country" even if we were born here.  To use your example about your neighbours mistaking you as a renter instead of an owner: while they might have hoped you were evicted, they didn't suggest that you should be deported somewhere.  See the difference?

 

1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

In university we actually tested this theory out, two people would go into high end, commission based, retail stores, one would dress up in a suit and the other would dress up in casual college attire.  My friend (who is filipino) decided to wear the suit, and I (the white kid) wore the college attire,  guess which one was approached with help first?  My filipino friend was treated like an potential customers, where I was barely recognized.   Appearance sure played a role but it wasn't race that people were focussed on.  

Just from a scientific perspective, your experiment was flawed because you used TWO variables at the same time.  From a science standpoint, what you should have done is both gone in dressed identically--that is, both in casual attire and then both in suits, and then compared the results.  That said, I can't say with any certainty what the results would be: just saying the methodology was wrong.

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2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

But your missing the point, do situations where a black man gets shot by police happen? yes, does that mean we can jump to the conclusion that it's a pure race filled hated from the law enforcement?  Before you answer yes, just consider, more white people are shot and killed by police than blacks..   If the black deaths are race motivated hatred why aren't the white death also considered that?   

 

I'm not denying that there aren't racially motivated situations that happen today, but it's become common fad to simply jump to that conclusion where every situation is purely racially motivated and context is thrown out the window.

I have a question about your assertion that more whites are shot and killed by blacks.  Assuming that information is correct:

 

1) how many of those white shootings/deaths were unjustified?  By that, I mean, of those whites who were killed, how many were unarmed and/or innocent of any crime?

 

2) Of those whites who were shot/killed unjustly, how many times were the officers responsible NOT held to account for it?

 

It's not just about police racism, it's also about the courts as well

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17 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

That is why I get frustrated with all this talk about "opportunity" and cop shootings and all that.  Yes, those are the more attention-grabbing issues, but for non-whites, "white privilege" is mostly these little innocuous incidents like that which are 1) not newsworthy, and 2) not worth reporting to anybody.  I mean, it doesn't even count as "death by a thousand cuts", it's more like a itchy rash that never goes away--it's not going to kill you or anything but damn, you wish it'd just stop.

 

And the example I gave is just one aspect of the broader picture: there's lots of other micro-racist insults that we have to deal with all the time.

It's one thing to be judged negatively because of your appearance, but I brought up that type of incident specifically because it applies specifically to the notion that we non-whites "don't belong in the country" even if we were born here.  To use your example about your neighbours mistaking you as a renter instead of an owner: while they might have hoped you were evicted, they didn't suggest that you should be deported somewhere.  See the difference?

Do you not see what you are doing?  You pulling the "i'm victimized more than you" card, therefor my opinion is more justified.    You met a guy who was a dick to you based on appearance, it sucks, but is that any different than a obese kid constantly getting picked on because of his/her weight and body shamed.  Just because one situation involves skin colour and the other doesn't, doesn't mean it was more or less traumatizing to the person.  You don't get to judge the effects of the barrier a individual has to face, no one does, it sucks, but plenty of white kids are born into a family where the father is an alcoholic and abusive, to bad right, you're still more oppressed than he is.  You made the quote earlier that white people have an easier  A societal privilege isn't based on skin colour, it's a biased subjective opinion individuals (like you) make for others. 

 

17 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

Just from a scientific perspective, your experiment was flawed because you used TWO variables at the same time.  From a science standpoint, what you should have done is both gone in dressed identically--that is, both in casual attire and then both in suits, and then compared the results.  That said, I can't say with any certainty what the results would be: just saying the methodology was wrong.

We weren't testing the theory based on race, my friend just happened to be filipino, the purpose was to show how something a simple as clothing attire will result in different reactions.  Honestly, i'm shocked that people don't see how racist it is say the term white privilege (to stereotype people based on their skin colour).  You didn't like the guy in the elevator coming to a conclusion of you based on your skin colour, yet you feel it's completely justified for you to do it do someone else.

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52 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

I have a question about your assertion that more whites are shot and killed by blacks.  Assuming that information is correct:

 

1) how many of those white shootings/deaths were unjustified?  By that, I mean, of those whites who were killed, how many were unarmed and/or innocent of any crime?

 

2) Of those whites who were shot/killed unjustly, how many times were the officers responsible NOT held to account for it?

 

It's not just about police racism, it's also about the courts as well

So do you hate white skin toned people?  I see naturally white skin toned people heading to tanning salons to get darker.  And I see naturally dark skin toned people avoiding the sun to get lighter.  Maybe there is jealousy on all sides of the whole skin tone issue?  

Dont you think the VAST MAJORITY of people don't care about someone's skin tone?

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Just now, Alflives said:

So do you hate white skin toned people?  I see naturally white skin toned people heading to tanning salons to get darker.  And I see naturally dark skin toned people avoiding the sun to get lighter.  Maybe there is jealousy on all sides of the whole skin tone issue?  

Dont you think the VAST MAJORITY of people don't care about someone's skin tone?

HUH???  What does that have to do with my questions? :wacko:

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1 minute ago, Alflives said:

I see naturally white skin toned people heading to tanning salons to get darker.   Maybe there is jealousy on all sides of the whole skin tone issue?  

my wife's best friend says "brown fat looks better than white fat". Its hard to argue with that. 

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42 minutes ago, Undrafted said:

I have a question about your assertion that more whites are shot and killed by blacks.  Assuming that information is correct:

 

1) how many of those white shootings/deaths were unjustified?  By that, I mean, of those whites who were killed, how many were unarmed and/or innocent of any crime?

 

2) Of those whites who were shot/killed unjustly, how many times were the officers responsible NOT held to account for it?

 

It's not just about police racism, it's also about the courts as well

in 2016, approx 29 unarmed black men were shot and killed, 

In 2016, approx 76 unarmed white men were killed.

 

It's a bit shady since some sites determine a guy having a rock in his hand as being armed where others don't.  It's also hard to determine what was happening during that altercation, if the guy had a warrant for the arrest of was resisting.  

 

The point is, and you understand it, context matters.  

http://time.com/4404987/police-violence/

 

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