Warhippy Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Looks like Boeing just took a serious right hook from"facts" about government assistance https://globalnews.ca/news/3773916/bombardier-boeing-subsidies/?utm_source=GlobalBC&utm_medium=Facebook When the Quebec government and Ottawa stepped in to shore up a struggling Bombardier with cash for its prized CSeries aircraft, danger was lurking, according to William Mitchell, professor of strategic management at the University of Toronto’s Rotman School of Management. Sure enough, not too long afterwards, Boeing filed a complaint with the U.S. government alleging that Canada’s airplane manufacturer was encroaching on its home turf by selling CSeries aircraft on the cheap (to Delta Air Lines in the specific case) thanks to government subsidies. Now, Washington has slapped a preliminary 219 per cent import duty on Bombardier that’s meant to counteract the effect of those subsidies and help level the playing field. READ MORE: Bombardier: A step-by-step guide to the trade dispute “They left themselves open to that by needing financial help,” Mitchell said, speaking about Bombardier. Sure, developing the CSeries, a whole new line of mid-size commercial aircraft was a big bet for Bombardier, which has until recently only dabbled in the regional jet market. It has sunk about $6 billion in the CSeries so far. But a company as old and established as Bombardier should have been able to handle that without government handouts, argues Mitchell. In part, Bombardier has itself to blame. WATCH: How should Canada Respond to the Hefty Tariff Slapped on Bombardier? But there’s another story about subsidies in this intricate cross-border trade drama – and it is about Boeing. The U.S. aircraft manufacturing giant is among the top recipients of both federal, state and local subsidies in the U.S., according to a tallycompiled by Good Jobs First, a Washington-based organization. The company received $457 million in federal grants, which are typically non-repayable, between 2000 and 2014. In addition to that, there was a whopping $64 billion in federal loans and loan guarantees. READ MORE: Canadian industries concerned about knock-on effects of Bombardier tariffs That, combined with $18 billion in contract awards in fiscal 2014 alone, make Boeing “exceptionally favored by Uncle Sam,” notes the report. But that’s not all. Boeing also received an eye-popping $13 billion in state and local subsidies over the same 15-year period. The U.S. aircraft maker also has another key advantage: military contracts. Thirty-six per cent of Boeing’s $94.5 billion revenue for 2016 came from the U.S. Department of Defense (U.S. DoD), according to the company’s financial statements. Those military dollars are an “indirect help” for Boeing’s commercial aircraft business, noted Mitchell. READ MORE: Quebec fights back after Bombardier slapped with 219% duty Even if one assumes modest spillover from the research and development (R&D) activity that Boeing conducts on behalf of the U.S. DoD, “the R&D resources they have and the scale they’re able to generate by virtue of their military business gives them inherent advantages,” said Jesse Goldman, partner at Bennett Jones in Toronto. Bombardier, by contrast, doesn’t even rank as one of the major recipients of Canada’s much smaller defence spending. Still, that’s not to say Boeing is an outlier in the aerospace industry. Indeed, gobbling up government dollars is the norm. “The aerospace industry – I don’t care what country you’re in – is highly, highly subsidized by domestic governments,” said Goldman. WATCH: What is going on with the Bombardier, Boeing dispute? It’s not about the money, it’s about the rules – and politics So what’s the brouhaha about the money pocketed by Bombardier? The issue is whether they contravened international trade rules set by the World Trade Organization, which referees global trade. Countries don’t really care about other countries’ subsidies unless they feel that those dollars are propping up foreign competitors that start harming their domestic companies and industries. That’s when WTO rules allow for the imposition of import duties, after thorough investigation, in order to cancel out the impact of the subsidies. WATCH: The politics of America’s big tariff on Bombardier Boeing has made a case that Canada’s cash infusions to Bombardier break the rules. And the U.S. government is taking that complaint seriously. (Boeing didn’t compete for the Delta contract Bombardier won but argues that the CSeries represents competition for its flagship 737 narrowbody aircraft.) The fact that Boeing also receives loads of government money isn’t a legal argument in this case, noted Goldman. From a legal standpoint, however, Canada can and is challenging the notion that the money Bombardier received from the Canadian government really fits the WTO definition of a subsidy that would justify import duties, according to Goldman. READ MORE: Britain’s May ‘bitterly disappointed’ with Bombardier tariff decision After all, Bombardier will have to repay the $372.5 million in financial help recently pledged by Ottawa. And Quebec’s $1 billion contribution was in exchange for a 49.5 per cent equity stake in the CSeries program, which you might call “an investment,” said Mitchell. “You can be sure that Bombardier received extensive legal opinions before they accepted any of this money from either the Quebec or the Canadian government,” said Goldman. Bombardier, Ottawa and Quebec all made “a major effort to make sure this would be bulletproof” under international trade law, said Goldman. But Canada’s aircraft maker faces a tough political environment in the U.S., one where the Trump administration has considerably ramped up its review of trade remedy cases. In such a climate, taking no money at all might have been the only truly bulletproof strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreFan1 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 46 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Ok, spell it out then champ. Facts are for their sie population by numbers alone they lead the world in some ugly categories in weight issues. That's not exactly arguable. If you want to scale down to countries/islands with populations totalling a mllion or less fine. We can do that and the US still sits top 10. Hey champ, you were so close, but yet so far..... USA comes in at #18 this year in BMI when you include the smallest countries as well. The USA's average BMI comes in at 33. Obese is considered 30-39.9... 40 and over is dangerously obese. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/the-most-obese-fattest-countries-in-the-world/ Though if it makes you feel better, disregard population averaging and take the US at 18 and average it with American Samoa at 1, and your guess will sneak in at 9! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 18 hours ago, CBH1926 said: That would be incorrect, but hey don't let the facts get in your way. I'll semi concede this to you But 4 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said: Hey champ, you were so close, but yet so far..... USA comes in at #18 this year in BMI when you include the smallest countries as well. The USA's average BMI comes in at 33. Obese is considered 30-39.9... 40 and over is dangerously obese. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/the-most-obese-fattest-countries-in-the-world/ Though if it makes you feel better, disregard population averaging and take the US at 18 and average it with American Samoa at 1, and your guess will sneak in at 9! Technically right The best kind of right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreFan1 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Just now, Warhippy said: I'll semi concede this to you But Technically right The best kind of right! I try to make everybody happy in a debate! On a serious note, both the USA and Canada have been steadily rising over the years. Canada ranking at 7-8 in the largest industrial nations, isn't good. With our fubar'd unregulated processed food supply, the USA will continue to be 1st overall for a long time, but Canada really needs to keep it's eye on the food that is being distributed or it will keep moving up the chart of shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 22 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said: I try to make everybody happy in a debate! On a serious note, both the USA and Canada have been steadily rising over the years. Canada ranking at 7-8 in the largest industrial nations, isn't good. With our fubar'd unregulated processed food supply, the USA will continue to be 1st overall for a long time, but Canada really needs to keep it's eye on the food that is being distributed or it will keep moving up the chart of shame. Honestly I will admit to having not looked at proper reports but was going by the numbers alone. 300+ million one of the world leaders in weight related health issues. So that's on me and I'll take ownership for that entirely. Spoke to a chef from Southern France about why this is and he had a pretty solid and very short summary for why We don't have fast food. You want to eat in my town you come you sit down. I cook you the food I picked from the market myself, I season it. You get no crap on your plate. You go to a western restaraunt your ingredients come from a central location via sysco food, pre packaged, pre made in part or whole. You cannot go to a supermarket and find a meal to microwave you learn to cook. From my time in Europe by and large he's right. I didn't see many fast food places, hell I was at a Subway where the guy cut my chicken breast and grilled it in front of me and blended the bloody sauce he put on it. Guess it's just convenience vs cost. But back to the story at hand. I think this will hurt Bombardier in the short term but in the long run as the subsidization of Boeing becomes so very common place and the reasons why I think Boeing is going to get hammered in this trade dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreFan1 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 31 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Honestly I will admit to having not looked at proper reports but was going by the numbers alone. 300+ million one of the world leaders in weight related health issues. So that's on me and I'll take ownership for that entirely. Spoke to a chef from Southern France about why this is and he had a pretty solid and very short summary for why We don't have fast food. You want to eat in my town you come you sit down. I cook you the food I picked from the market myself, I season it. You get no crap on your plate. You go to a western restaraunt your ingredients come from a central location via sysco food, pre packaged, pre made in part or whole. You cannot go to a supermarket and find a meal to microwave you learn to cook. From my time in Europe by and large he's right. I didn't see many fast food places, hell I was at a Subway where the guy cut my chicken breast and grilled it in front of me and blended the bloody sauce he put on it. Guess it's just convenience vs cost. But back to the story at hand. I think this will hurt Bombardier in the short term but in the long run as the subsidization of Boeing becomes so very common place and the reasons why I think Boeing is going to get hammered in this trade dispute. If Bombardier hires the right attorneys and sues in the correct courts, I think they have a very good chance at winning a dispute. Best case scenario, short of a ruling, for both parties in that event is that a court sends it to an independent 3rd party arbitrator with international trade experience. That's the most fair outcome. It's absolutely a food supply issue. The chef is correct. You eat food that's made the proper way and unprocessed, you'll reap the health benefits. You eat the lousy food that's readily available in North America, your health pays the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I can't post a link, because I just saw this ad as a lead in to a online video, but has anyone seen the new Boeing ad expressing their "Commitment to Canada"? I just saw it, and I was shocked at the balls that it would take to run such an ad right after the Bombardier tariff was imposed. I'm hoping that the Canadian networks tell Boeing to f**k off when they try to buy time for that message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 8 hours ago, RUPERTKBD said: I can't post a link, because I just saw this ad as a lead in to a online video, but has anyone seen the new Boeing ad expressing their "Commitment to Canada"? I just saw it, and I was shocked at the balls that it would take to run such an ad right after the Bombardier tariff was imposed. I'm hoping that the Canadian networks tell Boeing to f**k off when they try to buy time for that message. It's likely because according to certain news articles Canada hasn't actually walked away from the super hornet deal. I have read a few articles that Canada is still discussing this purchase. Obviously one would think Boeing would have to drop this first. Canada is trying to put pressure on by sending a letter of interest to Australia about buying used 30 year old jets, unfortunately all that does is hurt the military. We should just tell Boeing to get lost and buy the f35 or Rafale if the higher ups desire a twin engine fighter jet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: It's likely because according to certain news articles Canada hasn't actually walked away from the super hornet deal. I have read a few articles that Canada is still discussing this purchase. Obviously one would think Boeing would have to drop this first. Canada is trying to put pressure on by sending a letter of interest to Australia about buying used 30 year old jets, unfortunately all that does is hurt the military. We should just tell Boeing to get lost and buy the f35 or Rafale if the higher ups desire a twin engine fighter jet. Agreed. Especially telling Boeing to get lost. Although I might use some stronger language.....something about sex and travel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 1 hour ago, RUPERTKBD said: Agreed. Especially telling Boeing to get lost. Although I might use some stronger language.....something about sex and travel... Well so would I but we are on cdc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuckin_futz Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 9 hours ago, RUPERTKBD said: I can't post a link, because I just saw this ad as a lead in to a online video, but has anyone seen the new Boeing ad expressing their "Commitment to Canada"? I just saw it, and I was shocked at the balls that it would take to run such an ad right after the Bombardier tariff was imposed. I'm hoping that the Canadian networks tell Boeing to f**k off when they try to buy time for that message. Surprised no one has posted the latest in this dispute......... U.S. backs 300 percent in duties on Bombardier after Boeing complaint October 6, 2017 WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Commerce Department has notched up proposed trade duties on Bombardier Inc CSeries jets to nearly 300 percent, affirming Boeing Co’s complaint that the Canadian company received illegal subsidies and dumped the planes at “absurdly low” prices. The decision underscored the defensive trade policy of U.S. President Donald Trump, and could effectively halt sales of Bombardier’s innovative new plane to U.S. airlines by quadrupling the cost of the jets imported to the United States. The Commerce Department proposed a 79.82 percent antidumping duty on Friday, on top of a 219.63 percent duty for subsidies announced last week. The new duty follows a preliminary finding that Bombardier sold 75 CSeries jets below cost to Delta Air Lines Inc in 2016. The total was well above the 80 percent Boeing sought in its complaint. The proposed duties would not take effect unless affirmed by the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) early next year. The duties are expected to heighten trade tensions between the United States, Canada and Britain, where CSeries wings are made. The United States, Canada and Mexico also are negotiating to modernize the North American Free Trade Agreement. (more in the link) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-bombardier-commerce/u-s-backs-300-percent-in-duties-on-bombardier-after-boeing-complaint-idUSKBN1CB29X **************************** Upping the tariff from 220% to 300%. Justin Trudeau tells Donald Trump he will block Boeing contracts over Bombardier tariff row 12 October 2017 • 2:32am Justin Trudeau, the Canadian Prime Minister, told President Donald Trump on Wednesday he would block his country’s armed forces from buying Boeing aircraft if the US presses ahead with plans to slap import tariffs of 300 percent on Bombardier aeroplanes. The issue is threatening to ignite a trade war between the US, Canada and the UK, where the Canadian planemaker employs about 4,000 people in Belfast. Mr Trudeau met the US President at the White House for talks on the North American Free Trade Agreement and said he raised the issue of Bombardier “directly”, outlining his opposition to US anti-dumping policy. “I highlighted to the president how we disagree vehemently with Commerce’s decision to bring in countervailing and anti-dumping duties against Bombardier, that we feel this is not something that is warranted and quite frankly something that we look very negatively upon,” he said after the meeting. “The attempts by Boeing to put tens of thousands of aerospace workers out of work across Canada is not something we look on positively.” (more in the link) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/12/justin-trudeau-tells-donald-trump-will-block-boeing-contracts/ ************************* The Bombardier disagreement isn't even the major sticking point in NAFTA negotiations. They are miles apart on the issue of auto parts. Prediction - Sometime in the next 10 days Trump will tweet that the United States are ending their participation in NAFTA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/how-trump-is-about-to-make-the-‘worst-deal-ever’-even-worse/ar-AAtxU9g?li=AAggNb9 Quote President Trump has called the North American Free Trade Agreement “the worst deal ever,” but one thing might actually be worse: no deal at all. The fourth round of negotiations to revise the agreement wraps up Oct. 17, but many people close to the talks have expressed doubts that they will succeed. If NAFTA crumbles, trade among Mexico, Canada and the United States would fall under World Trade Organization rules with modest average tariff rates and an established, if unwieldy, process for resolving disputes. But the tariff rates, although relatively low, would be higher on U.S. exports than on U.S. imports. Many trade experts say that would hurt U.S. exporters of everything from corn to auto parts and that the United States could end up with fewer jobs while paying higher prices for goods than it does. Meanwhile, Canada and Mexico would be able to fall back on free-trade agreements they have forged with Europe recently, providing zero tariffs. Combine this with Trump's stupidity regarding the Iran deal (another of the "worst deals ever") and it's obvious that this clown has no idea what he's doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionized27 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 CBC radio this morning said Bombardier is in talks with Airbus now, giving Bombardier a more global market. Boeing is now crying about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whorvat Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 http://www.businessinsider.com/airbus-bombardier-c-series-boeing-tariffs-us-2017-10 "On Monday, Airbus and Bombardier announced that the two airplane makers would join forces on the next-generation C Series airliner. The deal sees Airbus acquiring a 50.01% equity stake in Bombardier's C Series program and producing US-bound C Series jets at its plant in Mobile, Alabama. Production of all other C Series jets will remain in Canada, where Bombardier is based." Looks like this is a maneuver to get around the imposed tariffs. Not sure how I feel about it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Standing_Tall#37 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 24 minutes ago, Whorvat said: http://www.businessinsider.com/airbus-bombardier-c-series-boeing-tariffs-us-2017-10 "On Monday, Airbus and Bombardier announced that the two airplane makers would join forces on the next-generation C Series airliner. The deal sees Airbus acquiring a 50.01% equity stake in Bombardier's C Series program and producing US-bound C Series jets at its plant in Mobile, Alabama. Production of all other C Series jets will remain in Canada, where Bombardier is based." Looks like this is a maneuver to get around the imposed tariffs. Not sure how I feel about it though. Well that’s like the company I work for. They bought 18 lumber mills in the states so that the tariffs imposed on softwood imported Don’t hurt at all. The canadian mills are aiming at selling locally and all over excluding the states. Meanwhile the mills in the states will sell at cost to American companies until the American mills can’t compete and shut down. Then my company has a history of setting market prices after it has driven most of its competitors under. I have no doubt that other businesses in other sectors are revising business strategies to do similar things for long term gain and long term pain for us companies in retaliation for all these tariffs and desire from the US to screw all trading partners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Whorvat said: http://www.businessinsider.com/airbus-bombardier-c-series-boeing-tariffs-us-2017-10 "On Monday, Airbus and Bombardier announced that the two airplane makers would join forces on the next-generation C Series airliner. The deal sees Airbus acquiring a 50.01% equity stake in Bombardier's C Series program and producing US-bound C Series jets at its plant in Mobile, Alabama. Production of all other C Series jets will remain in Canada, where Bombardier is based." Looks like this is a maneuver to get around the imposed tariffs. Not sure how I feel about it though. This is a delayed sale 7 1/2 years from now, just probably for a lot more money than it ever would have been worth under Trump. Boeing and Trumps buddies pretty much squeezed the life out of the C-series company so there was little else to do really. Airbus is laughing tho, they come out with essentially a free company at the end of all this. I suppose there's something to enjoy in the fact that Boeings nightmare of Airbus getting more market share has occurred, but it comes at the expense of the Canadian taxpayer. There's not really that much to like here unless you live in Quebec. Its also hopefully a lesson to people that don't want us to get more trade agreements around the world, we need to diversify and quickly, as the US is going to continue to do this to us each and every time out from now until 7 years at least. Yes I think Trump will be re-elected. We have a great chance to get trade deals in Asia right now and need to take advantage of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Whorvat said: http://www.businessinsider.com/airbus-bombardier-c-series-boeing-tariffs-us-2017-10 "On Monday, Airbus and Bombardier announced that the two airplane makers would join forces on the next-generation C Series airliner. The deal sees Airbus acquiring a 50.01% equity stake in Bombardier's C Series program and producing US-bound C Series jets at its plant in Mobile, Alabama. Production of all other C Series jets will remain in Canada, where Bombardier is based." Looks like this is a maneuver to get around the imposed tariffs. Not sure how I feel about it though. It's actually quite brilliant if you think about it Airbus' facilities in the US can produce aircraft at a very fast rate compared to Bombardiers here in canada. If Boeing was afraid before they need to be terrified now because these jets will be tariff free at a time when almost all major airlines are actively seeking these style of jets with their ability to travel long distances with smaller frames. Suck on that Boeing. Now. If Trudeau REALLY wants to stick it to Boeing and the US he will now buy Airbus sourced fighter jets like the Typhoon and the A400 But....what is most exciting is that with a merger of this nature it opens the door for Bombardier to be on the front lines of Airbus' new next gen fighter jet when it goes to build. Purchasing the Typhoon now would mean Canada would have a front line ticket to these purchases. At cost http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a26933/airbus-planning-next-generation-european/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamJamIam Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 On 15/10/2017 at 7:46 PM, Ryan Strome said: Canada is trying to put pressure on by sending a letter of interest to Australia about buying used 30 year old jets, unfortunately all that does is hurt the military. We should just tell Boeing to get lost and buy the f35 or Rafale if the higher ups desire a twin engine fighter jet. I'll take 2x the number of Saab Gripen Es for the same money. Not to mention they're designed for operating in Arctic conditions and have super low maintenance costs unlike the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, SamJamIam said: I'll take 2x the number of Saab Gripen Es for the same money. Not to mention they're designed for operating in Arctic conditions and have super low maintenance costs unlike the others. Ya the new gripen does have some very good qualities that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 11 hours ago, Warhippy said: It's actually quite brilliant if you think about it Airbus' facilities in the US can produce aircraft at a very fast rate compared to Bombardiers here in canada. If Boeing was afraid before they need to be terrified now because these jets will be tariff free at a time when almost all major airlines are actively seeking these style of jets with their ability to travel long distances with smaller frames. Suck on that Boeing. Now. If Trudeau REALLY wants to stick it to Boeing and the US he will now buy Airbus sourced fighter jets like the Typhoon and the A400 But....what is most exciting is that with a merger of this nature it opens the door for Bombardier to be on the front lines of Airbus' new next gen fighter jet when it goes to build. Purchasing the Typhoon now would mean Canada would have a front line ticket to these purchases. At cost http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a26933/airbus-planning-next-generation-european/ I might be missing something here. This project has cost over 5 billion dollars, Quebec alone has "coughed up" 1.3 billion of tax payers money. Now Airbus is the majority owner of the C series, and they might be adding second assembly line in Alabama for these planes. Airbus did not put any cash into this deal, that is an amazing deal for them! Sure it's a big f you to Boeing, but also an example of burning the house down to save the furniture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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