[discussion] does Benning "throw away" picks?

[JM_]

So with the Pouliot trade we're seeing the old Benning critics saying he's "throwing away" picks again. But is that really the case with Jim? Has he actually done that?

 

I had a look at his trade history from http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_team/Vancouver_Canucks/2 and the one from yesterday.

 

When you look at Benning's trade history he's actually 1 pick ahead, and the net change in pick position has improved. There's been a lot of movement, but where it stands today we're actually ahead in pick quality. Now thats a different discussion about what he did with them, but just on this idea that we've lost picks it doesn't hold up. 

 

Basically the sum of it is this in terms of pick position change:

 

We gained a 1st, two 3rd's, a 6th and 7th

We lost two 2nd's, one 4th and one 5th

 

You may not like what he acquired in some of the deals but in terms of pick quality he came out a little ahead imo based on gaining the 1st and never giving up a 1st either. 

 

The only criticism could possibly be the idea of not "stockpiling" but that wasn't part of the deal when trying to be competitive. 

 

 

--

Based on the link I looked at the picks we lost, picks we gained and the change in position:

[48MPHSlapShot]

Also, it needs to be mentioned that many of the picks he has moved were moved for young players that can potentially be part of our next core (Baer, Guddy, Pouliot).

 

I'd much rather have a GM willing to take risks than a GM who just sits there stockpiling picks like a draft manatee.

[JM_]

1 minute ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Also, it needs to be mentioned that many of the picks he has moved were moved for young players that can potentially be part of our next core (Baer, Guddy, Pouliot).

 

I'd much rather have a GM willing to take risks than a GM who just sits there stockpiling picks like a draft manatee.

yup. Just tired of the old mantra's so wanted to see the actual numbers somewhere.

 

When you look at the guys you mention and the slight uptick in pick quality I'd say he's been very good at managing our picks. Sure we don't have 11 or 12 next draft but we have 6 (probably more) for 2018 and Baer, Guddy, Pouliot to develop. 

[Shift-4]

@Jimmy McGill

You are only supposed to focus on negatives!  Learn how to CDC, bro

[combover]

 

yeah for me it's the stockpile. Trading picks for long shots and projects at this point in the "rebuild" just seems wrong. 

We all know not every pick will become a nhler regardless of where they get drafted the more picks the better the odds and the better the odds of getting that rare diamond in the  that slipped throu however unlikely.

Guys like Larsen vey for example are easily picked up on waivers nowadays theres no logical reason to throw picks to get guys like that.

Recouping isn't the same as acquiring. 

 

[48MPHSlapShot]

Just now, combover said:

Didn't we give up a third for pedan?

yeah for me it's the stockpile. Trading picks for long shots and projects at this point in the "rebuild" just seems wrong. 

We all know not every pick will become a nhler regardless of where they get drafted the more picks the better the odds and the better the odds of getting that rare diamond in the  that slipped throu however unlikely.

Guys like Larsen vey for example are easily picked up on waivers nowadays theres no logical reason to throw picks to get guys like that.

Recouping isn't the same as acquiring. 

 

Not to keep harping on this, but Baer has turned out pretty well for us thus far. 

 

And you use the term "Guys like Larsen, Vey", like every fringe player is exactly the same. If Benning thinks he sees something that can be worked into a greater asset then what we give up for said asset, then if he has any confidence in his ability as both a scout and a GM, he should imho go for it.

[HerrDrFunk]

You need to stay off HFBoards, Jimmy. No good will come of it.

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, combover said:

Didn't we give up a third for pedan?

yeah for me it's the stockpile. Trading picks for long shots and projects at this point in the "rebuild" just seems wrong. 

We all know not every pick will become a nhler regardless of where they get drafted the more picks the better the odds and the better the odds of getting that rare diamond in the  that slipped throu however unlikely.

Guys like Larsen vey for example are easily picked up on waivers nowadays theres no logical reason to throw picks to get guys like that.

Recouping isn't the same as acquiring. 

 

yes we did, overall since 2014 we've lost two 3rd's but gained 4 back. 

 

the stockpile idea is fine, but that wasn't the style ownership was going for so to criticize him on that isn't fair imo. 

[Fantomex]

3 minutes ago, combover said:

Didn't we give up a third for pedan?

yeah for me it's the stockpile. Trading picks for long shots and projects at this point in the "rebuild" just seems wrong. 

We all know not every pick will become a nhler regardless of where they get drafted the more picks the better the odds and the better the odds of getting that rare diamond in the  that slipped throu however unlikely.

Guys like Larsen vey for example are easily picked up on waivers nowadays theres no logical reason to throw picks to get guys like that.

Recouping isn't the same as acquiring. 

 

It's called filling in the gaps. Jim stated he needed to fill in the age gaps in the prospect pool to ensure a competitive team much sooner. I'd say he's done a good job at quickly turning the prospect pool around. If he had sat on his picks and acquired more you wouldn't see many drafted players contributing to the team for another 2-3 years.

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, Shift-4 said:

@Jimmy McGill

You are only supposed to focus on negatives!  Learn how to CDC, bro

damn, I forgot 

 

ok... jim sux man, throws 'em away like candy, worst one evah... so like that? 

[RetroCanuck]

In my mind if you trade a pick that has 10% of being an NHLer for a guy you think has a higher chance, like a former first rounder(Baer, Pouliot) then you make that trade every day. Im all for throwing in low round picks if you get a player thats going to help your future. Im just hoping Benning holds onto more of his seconds because Lind and Gadj this year have me very excited

[Toews]

9 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Also, it needs to be mentioned that many of the picks he has moved were moved for young players that can potentially be part of our next core (Baer, Guddy, Pouliot).

 

I'd much rather have a GM willing to take risks than a GM who just sits there stockpiling picks like a draft manatee.

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. I see guys like Boeser, Juolevi, Pettersson, Demko, Horvat being our core. The guys that you stated are supporting players, I can't see them being part of the core. I do not expect either Baertschi or Granlund to become top line wingers. The threshold for a winger to be a core player is quite a bit higher than C, D or G. As far as Pouliot, it is way to early to say what he is. He was just traded for a 4th, expectations need to be tempered.

[JM_]

9 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

In my mind if you trade a pick that has 10% of being an NHLer for a guy you think has a higher chance, like a former first rounder(Baer, Pouliot) then you make that trade every day. Im all for throwing in low round picks if you get a player thats going to help your future. Im just hoping Benning holds onto more of his seconds because Lind and Gadj this year have me very excited

I think at this point if he did move a 2nd it would be for a kid with Lind-like potential thats maybe draft+1 or +2, something like that. I can't see him doing it for age-gap reasons, we're past that now. 

 

 

[Rick Blight]

Benning could trade Megna and a 4th for McDavid and there would be some on CDC questioning why he had to add a 4th. Sometimes you just need to add a pick to get to a deal that both teams deem as fair value.I don't even know why this is being talked about.

[48MPHSlapShot]

9 minutes ago, Toews said:

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. I see guys like Boeser, Juolevi, Pettersson, Demko, Horvat being our core. The guys that you stated are supporting players, I can't see them being part of the core. I do not expect either Baertschi or Granlund to become top line wingers. The threshold for a winger to be a core player is quite a bit higher than C, D or G. As far as Pouliot, it is way to early to say what he is. He was just traded for a 4th, expectations need to be tempered.

I disagree with your assessment of what a "core player" can be. For example, I would certainly consider Hansen part of our old core, despite him never surpassing the level of a middle six winger. But to each their own.

 

As far as Baer and Granny are concerned, I still think it's a little too soon to assume their ceilings just yet, Granlund in particular, who just came off his first full season in the NHL, managed to net 19 goals in 69 games despite playing the season with a mangled wrist and is fully capable of playing both center and wing effectively. While I'm not sure about Baer, everything I've seen from Granlund thus far leads me to believe that he's just starting to reach his full potential, and I think he's going to surprise a lot of people this upcoming season not just with his goal/point totals, but with his effectiveness playing in multiple situations.

[canuckledraggin]

He let's other GM's know he'll do what it takes to get a deal done. Unless you offer him a 7th for Hamhuis, then he'll wipe the spit from his face and avoid looking like a total doormat. That was the line in the sand imo.

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, Rick Blight said:

Benning could trade Megna and a 4th for McDavid and there would be some on CDC questioning why he had to add a 4th. Sometimes you just need to add a pick to get to a deal that both teams deem as fair value.I don't even know why this is being talked about.

I was just seeing the "throw away" criticism again, and wanted to know the actual details over his time here. Its pretty good. Could it be better? Sure, Vey would have been good to leave in LA, but honestly who knew the guys dad was trying to kill his mom? thats gotta be rough. So who knows maybe under a different home life the kids our future 3LW but that situation was bizarre. Would we like Forsling back? yah. But these are all minor things in comparison to draining the cupboard of picks or losing 1st rounders. 

[coastal.view]

there are many tools available to a gm to build and shape a team

a gm who only accumulates draft picks is pretty 1 dimensional

some trading (of assets:  players/draft picks) and free agent signings are also necessary

 

[Rob_Zepp]

39 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Also, it needs to be mentioned that many of the picks he has moved were moved for young players that can potentially be part of our next core (Baer, Guddy, Pouliot).

 

I'd much rather have a GM willing to take risks than a GM who just sits there stockpiling picks like a draft manatee.

[Rick Blight]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I was just seeing the "throw away" criticism again, and wanted to know the actual details over his time here. Its pretty good. Could it be better? Sure, Vey would have been good to leave in LA, but honestly who knew the guys dad was trying to kill his mom? thats gotta be rough. So who knows maybe under a different home life the kids our future 3LW but that situation was bizarre. Would we like Forsling back? yah. But these are all minor things in comparison to draining the cupboard of picks or losing 1st rounders. 

I hear ya and my question of why we continue to talk about this was in no way a criticism of your post. GM's around the league all trade in draft pick commodities and ALL win some and lose some........I just want a GM that gets fair value in his deals more often than not and in my opinion GMJB has been able to do that.

.