[discussion] does Benning "throw away" picks?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

If Pouliot sucks, later gets claimed and waived like Etem did than it shows mgmt made took a gamble and made the wrong call. But from the outlook as of today, I see this move just as a lateral move and I’m one of the biggest critics when it comes to trading picks. 

 

Pedan was never going to get us anything in return, he’s been waived two years in a row now and wasn’t claimed.  This shows how teams felt about his value. 

Pits moved Pouliot believing he would get claimed, so it shows that there currently is some value for him. 

 

Pouliot now bring a big of a log jam in terms of offensively focused left handed D, with Hutton and Del Zotto.  This isn’t a bad thing,  We’ve upped our odds that one will turn out to be a core member instead of just banking on Hutton, and in an ideal world it allows us to move an extra asset for far more than a 4th.  So in the end this should be at worst a lateral move, it still could go either way but that's why JB is paid the big $ to make those decision.  .

[TheGuardian_]

57 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

If Pouliot sucks, later gets claimed and waived like Etem did than it shows mgmt made took a gamble and made the wrong call. But from the outlook as of today, I see this move just as a lateral move and I’m one of the biggest critics when it comes to trading picks. 

 

Pedan was never going to get us anything in return, he’s been waived two years in a row now and wasn’t claimed.  This shows how teams felt about his value. 

Pits moved Pouliot believing he would get claimed, so it shows that there currently is some value for him. 

 

Pouliot now bring a big of a log jam in terms of offensively focused left handed D, with Hutton and Del Zotto.  This isn’t a bad thing,  We’ve upped our odds that one will turn out to be a core member instead of just banking on Hutton, and in an ideal world it allows us to move an extra asset for far more than a 4th.  So in the end this should be at worst a lateral move, it still could go either way but that's why JB is paid the big $ to make those decision.  .

I believe that only one other team had a shot at him before the Canucks, Colorado.

 

Picks traded, yes you only named the picks, but what of the player's position. Splitting hairs here but McCann was still in his first NHL year when he was traded wasn't he? Could he not be counted as trading a #1 pick? Or Forsling a #5? Just because they were so new here, sort of like trading last years draft pick retroactively.

 

At any rate the team should be higher in the standings this year since there was only one team below them last year, no where to go but up really so does not finishing DFL make everyone a success? Every deal a good one?

 

Hopefully some of these players improve enough so when the new management team comes in they have assets they can convert into exceptional players. Or that this management group is doing just that, stockpiling TDL assets.

 

Hockey will stop after the 2019/2020 season. so maybe what happens now doesn't really matter.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Just now, TheGuardian_ said:

I believe that only one other team had a shot at him before the Canucks, Colorado.

A team very likely to make that claim

 

 

Just now, TheGuardian_ said:

Picks traded, yes you only named the picks, but what of the player's position. Splitting hairs here but McCann was still in his first NHL year when he was traded wasn't he? Could he not be counted as trading a #1 pick? Or Forsling a #5? Just because they were so new here, sort of like trading last years draft pick.

I won't defend trading picks in past and I think rebuilding teams should stock pile picks rather than trade for reclamation project.  I still feel that way about this trade,  JB hasn't had a lot of success in moving picks for unproven players in the past but his one success was a moved with help/direction from travis green, who i'm sure gave some input on this move.  It's far too early to determine if this move will be a good move or a bad move.  Personally, yes I would have kept Pedan and our 4th, waived Biega used that draft pick in this years draft.  In the 4 draft years JB has been here he has only had 2, 4th round picks (zhuk and Rathbone), but with that said I think we got Pouliot below market value and should be able to turn him or our extra asset into a far bigger return than a 4th.  We wouldn't have that extra asset without him.

 

Just now, TheGuardian_ said:

At any rate the team should be higher in the standings this year since there was only one team below them last year, no where to go but up really so does not finishing DFL make everyone a success? Every deal a good one?

 

I expect canucks to be a bottom 5 team this year and we are drafting a PPQB D. 

 

Just now, TheGuardian_ said:

Hopefully some of these players improve enough so when the new management team comes in they have assets they can convert into exceptional players. Or that this management group is doing just that, stockpiling TDL assets.

That's what I see JB doing this year, stockpiling trade deadline assets.  We have an overflow of assets right now, lets turn them into more valuable picks. 

 

Just now, TheGuardian_ said:

Hockey will stop after the 2019/2020 season. so maybe what happens now doesn't really matter.

You never know what happens with the next CBA, there very well could be a stoppage

[TheGuardian_]

5 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

You never know what happens with the next CBA, there very well could be a stoppage

I am pretty sure, I have looked over a lot of recent contract signings and that year stands out as being different/odd/ in just out of all the recent contracts. High signing bonuses, low NHL salary just for that one year in the middle of the contract. Not all the recent contracts but many.

[Alflives]

34 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I believe that only one other team had a shot at him before the Canucks, Colorado.

 

Picks traded, yes you only named the picks, but what of the player's position. Splitting hairs here but McCann was still in his first NHL year when he was traded wasn't he? Could he not be counted as trading a #1 pick? Or Forsling a #5? Just because they were so new here, sort of like trading last years draft pick retroactively.

 

At any rate the team should be higher in the standings this year since there was only one team below them last year, no where to go but up really so does not finishing DFL make everyone a success? Every deal a good one?

 

Hopefully some of these players improve enough so when the new management team comes in they have assets they can convert into exceptional players. Or that this management group is doing just that, stockpiling TDL assets.

 

Hockey will stop after the 2019/2020 season. so maybe what happens now doesn't really matter.

Even if Colorado allows Pouliot to slip to us, and we claim him, we still have the issue of Pedan's contract counting against our 50.  The trade gets us Pouliot for sure, but it also serves to move Pedan's contract.  I think that's part of the deal too.

[TheGuardian_]

15 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Even if Colorado allows Pouliot to slip to us, and we claim him, we still have the issue of Pedan's contract counting against our 50.  The trade gets us Pouliot for sure, but it also serves to move Pedan's contract.  I think that's part of the deal too.

I do believe that might have been a consideration if they had any plan to make trades or signings. But the management group's modus operandi has been to spend to the cap and be cap restricted from being able to do any kind of deals for the entire year, just sit back and watch for the rest of the year or do some little itty bitty deal that does nothing for the NHL team.

[Alflives]

Just now, TheGuardian_ said:

I do believe that might have been a consideration if they had any plan to make trades or signings. But the management group's modus operandi has been to spend to the cap and be cap restricted from being able to do any kind of deals for the entire year, just sit back and watch for the rest of the year or do some little itty bitty deal that does nothing for the NHL team.

Maybe that's why dumping the Pedan contract?  I heard on the radio that we are expecting to sign Gaudette in the spring, so we need flexibility in our contract number.  I agree with you that we shouldn't spend anywhere close to the cap.  We should be near the floor, while rebuilding.  Then we could charge a lot less for tickets, and more fans could afford to see the kids play.  

[TheGuardian_]

Just now, Alflives said:

Maybe that's why dumping the Pedan contract?  I heard on the radio that we are expecting to sign Gaudette in the spring, so we need flexibility in our contract number.  I agree with you that we shouldn't spend anywhere close to the cap.  We should be near the floor, while rebuilding.  Then we could charge a lot less for tickets, and more fans could afford to see the kids play.  

Charge less.

 

Kids playBoth of them at once?

 

The team should be using every asset to improve the team more rapidly, including cap space instead of retirement contracts.

As far as contract number, while it sounds insensitive to a player, they have many players they could "cut" and then have them re-sign to an AHL contract, no worry of any of those being picked up and by the time Guadette is available unless there is an injury, why not have him play in a "winning" environment? The AHL team should be winning a lot more, as used to be in Toronto when they had a killer AHL team but missed the show more often than not.

 

Have you noticed how at the beginning of this season optimism is over flowing on CDC, only two young guys maybe playing and you would think they had 5 or more young/rookies out there.

[hyper00]

Jim Benning primary forte is scouting, he's aware of the draft and he feels confident that Pouliot is going to be a step up from a scratch ticket. I mean would you want to trade Jannik Hansen for Pouliot or trade Yakupov for Horvat? It's scouting but it is luck as well.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

57 minutes ago, hyper00 said:

Jim Benning primary forte is scouting, he's aware of the draft and he feels confident that Pouliot is going to be a step up from a scratch ticket. I mean would you want to trade Jannik Hansen for Pouliot or trade Yakupov for Horvat? It's scouting but it is luck as well.

This argument doesn't work when JB doesn't know what the 4th round is going to look like this year, not even the day of the draft he'd know which players could fall to that spot.

 

For example, last year we traded away our 5th round pick for larsen.  A year later JB obviously likely what he saw in the late rounds on draft day because he made a move and traded down to pick up those extra piece.  Has he not traded for Larsen he wouldn't have had to trade away the pick we got in the hansen deal

[Crabcakes]

Benning is a scout at heart.  That means he is a talent evaluator.  Once players are drafted, the evaluation doesn't end.  There are obviously pro scouts and amateur scouts.  Pouliot was scouted prior to the draft by Benning and his team (while he was in Boston) and he's followed him since with pro scouts because Pouliot and others are on his radar screen as a possible piece to trade for.  He essentially said this in the interview.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if Benning can trade for assets with potential using assets at his disposal (whether players or picks) it makes no difference.  The only thing that matters is that he is adding players that improve the team.  Obviously, not every move will work out.  It never does.  

 

Now, if he gives up a player like Pedan who will likely never play in the NHL and a 4th for a reclamation project like Pouliot with a high upside I think it's a good move.  

 

Once again, if the player has a decent probability of becoming a good player, use whatever assets you need.  It's every bit as worth while as using the pick at the draft.  I don't think it makes a bit of difference.

 

 

 

 

[hyper00]

3 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

This argument doesn't work when JB doesn't know what the 4th round is going to look like this year, not even the day of the draft he'd know which players could fall to that spot.

 

For example, last year we traded away our 5th round pick for larsen.  A year later JB obviously likely what he saw in the late rounds on draft day because he made a move and traded down to pick up those extra piece.  Has he not traded for Larsen he wouldn't have had to trade away the pick we got in the hansen deal

Well I can't exactly argue that it's okay to lose a pick, like it's that feeling of what if. But it's not going to hurt to throw a bone and hope it works, especially considering his draft position and relationship with Green. Let's be honest, Colorado would've 100% taken him so he did a risk and added a 4th.

 

We shall see, it's a 4th but can be a steal or vice versa. I'm not hoping a kid bust for our benefit so we'll see.

[Schmautzie]

I have no problem giving up draft picks for players like Vey who may have untapped potential that you are willing to roll the dice on. I do have an issue with throwing in picks in trades that create obvious overpayments:

 

Bonino and  Clendening was enough for Sutter without adding a second rounder.

 

McCann plus a second and a fourth was too much for Gudbranson.

 

Kassian by himself was an overpayment for Prust without adding a fifth.

 

Hopefully Benning has learned from his mistakes and realizes a rebuilding team needs to keep its draft picks.

 

[JeremyCuddles]

Pedan is the Megna of d-men. We lose nothing by moving him. He can come up for a few games here and there if you are 2-3 men down but is likely never gonna be a 6/7 guy on a team that wants to do more than win draft lotteries. Pouliot looks like at worst is a Yannick Weber. Pedan's value went up when he cleared waivers. Lets be honest.

[Canucklehead73]

Why all the fuss about Forsling? I get that we traded Clendening as what a lot of people call a throw in as well... Forsling is a 5th round pick who has done nothing of note.