What Are Your Thoughts of What A Rebuild Is?

[Alflives]

Just now, 189lb enforcers? said:

Anywhere, yes, but statistically, impact players are taken high in the draft. 

Statistically, scientifically, this is a best practices approach to rebuilding, if a team affords itself those draft opportunities. 

And doesn’t miss (too much) when they get those picks. 

[EdgarM]

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎16 at 1:59 PM, thrago said:

Well before those picks no they weren't good enough to start making a push for the Cup.  But just because they did get them and they are starting to make the push doesn't mean there work is done they still have to keep improving until they win a Cup which may or may not happen.  Its not like a GM can say well we have a good team and we got that special player that can put us over the top so my work is done I'm just going to sit back and enjoy all the Stanley Cups we win. Its just not that easy you have to keep trying to get better and better till your enough to win it.  

 

Once you get that guy or guys you have to make a push or you will miss your chance.  Maybe they win one maybe they don't.  Maybe they got that guy to early maybe they didn't, time will tell.  But IMO they both have a pretty good chance to win one in the near future.  I thought when we had Bure and Linden we would win one for sure but that obviously never happened. There comes a time when every team has to go for it right now its T.O. and EDM time.  It is definitely not our time at the moment so we wait till it is and hope we pick the right time to make a push.

 

 

We may very well have those players(Bure/Linden) in Boeser and Bo. Character is a big component as well and I believe these players have that. The next couple of years are definitely looking brighter.

[189lb enforcers?]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

And doesn’t miss (too much) when they get those picks. 

This is the only science in the data sets we can use to determine a BP approach to executing a successful rebuild. Hence, Team Tank.

 

One or two more years of SlimJim hockey and this rebuild will work itself out. I'm not ready to credit those two for much of it, save one TDL. 

[ilduce39]

32 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Sure, Tanev then, if we have to split hairs on the coulda-woulda-shoulda trade missed opportunities. 

 

Rebuilding the core, at least you speak to the goal of the rebuild. 

 

The point here concerns how many shot attempts JB has made for himself to rebuild the core with. Not having moved prime assets 3-4 years ago and counting, whatever the restraints have been, have cost the roster a serious rebuild effort. Transitioning is not the same as rebuilding, in a hockey context. I'd say this team is transitioning today, sure, but with fewer prospects than they should have. Reliable or not, he has to make those opportunities for the rebuild. Choosing to do it at a pace similar to Chicago's is not really a rebuild, imo.  

Well, if you want to have a serious conversation about it you need to be specific or "split hairs."  It's a fairly important detail that Edler and the Twins aren't going to waive their NTC's. 

 

We missed out on a return for Hamhuis which stung... though poor Jokkipakka and Pollock returns for Russell leave just a 2nd on the table. 

 

Then there was not trading Matthias. Maybe a 3rd?

 

JB has sold a lot of what people were willing to buy. Getting decent returns for Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen, Kesler despite being handcuffed by multiple NTC's.

[TheGuardian_]

6 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

We are slowly getting the pieces we need and I see more key components coming once the Twins contracts expire.

4 years of drafting and two players on the roster, yep, that is slowly alright.

 

Where will the "key components" be coming from?

[Alflives]

Just now, 189lb enforcers? said:

This is the only science in the data sets we can use to determine a BP approach to executing a successful rebuild. Hence, Team Tank.

 

One or two more years of SlimJim hockey and this rebuild will work itself out. I'm not ready to credit those two for much of it, save one TDL. 

I agree.  The tank and get top picks is being forced upon TL and JB.  Hopefully they don’t do something really stupid and trade our prospects and picks for older players.  

[ilduce39]

1 minute ago, TheGuardian_ said:

4 years of drafting and two players on the roster, yep, that is slowly alright.

 

Where will the "key components" be coming from?

Part of that is intentional - hence bringing in vets as place holders.  

 

The goal isn't to rush a bunch of teenagers to the NHL.

[Crabcakes]

7 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Character isn't taught as much as it is an inherent personality trait.

Nobody had to teach Toews how do be who he was at 18. 

 

This concept off-ice mentorship is not worth 14 mil a year. 

 

The Coilers had Ebele, Hall and Yak as their young core. Not exactly oozing leadership or character. We've got a lot of mileage with this bait-and-switch point of using an extreme as a bar to compare teams with. 

Character is individual.  Culture is collective.

 

Benning drafts for character.  It takes a special person to affect the group.  Leadership that brings their positive character traits and takes the group in a good direction is pure gold.

 

I don't think that I'm going to convince you.  Agree to disagree.

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, ilduce39 said:

Well, if you want to have a serious conversation about it you need to be specific or "split hairs."  It's a fairly important detail that Edler and the Twins aren't going to waive their NTC's. 

 

We missed out on a return for Hamhuis which stung... though poor Jokkipakka and Pollock returns for Russell leave just a 2nd on the table. 

 

Then there was not trading Matthias. Maybe a 3rd?

 

JB has sold a lot of what people were willing to buy. Getting decent returns for Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen, Kesler despite being handcuffed by multiple NTC's.

Serious, on here?

We don't have time for that, I'd hope. 

 

I'm thrilled they are turning the corner with this seemingly rudderless enterprise.

I am not complaining about the good the Canucks have coming. I'm putting my cheer outfit back on because I have nothing to bitch about... unless the TDL passes with this roster intact.

 

This is the happiest I've been with the team in years. I'm not going to dwell on the past anymore and am pulling myself out of this tendency to look at the past and not the future of this team. Wish me luck. 

 

 

[IBatch]

33 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Sure, Tanev then, if we have to split hairs on the coulda-woulda-shoulda trade missed opportunities. 

 

Rebuilding the core, at least you speak to the goal of the rebuild. 

 

The point here concerns how many shot attempts JB has made for himself to rebuild the core with. Not having moved prime assets 3-4 years ago and counting, whatever the restraints have been, have cost the roster a serious rebuild effort. Transitioning is not the same as rebuilding, in a hockey context. I'd say this team is transitioning today, sure, but with fewer prospects than they should have. Reliable or not, he has to make those opportunities for the rebuild. Choosing to do it at a pace similar to Chicago's is not really a rebuild, imo.  

The lack of prospects that are ready come from the Gillis regime, with the exception of Horvat.  We all know this and whether or not it was acceptable given that we were trying to win a cup is neither here nor there, it's just the reality of it.

  Benning has done a decent job at restocking, especially depth.  Boeser looks like a winner no doubt, but Juolevi more and more is looking like a miss ( not a bust, too early to go there but man Sergechev would sure help our PP and offense..)

 

It's not clear if it's deliberate picking guys that have huge upside but will need a few years so the team has more of a chance to pile up a few more high picks, or if it's not by design and he's just fumbling along.

 

Over the next two years we should find out whether Benning is a genuis ( which to me would be picking consecutive stars with our firsts that can step in early and coinciding with Demko, Pettersson and Juolevi entrance) or if he's the wrong GM and it's time to look elsewhere.

 

What happens this year with the Sedins will also shake things up.  If they retire two top forward spots and PP minutes need to be filled, hopefully internally, and a but ton of cap space will open up...or of they hold on and sign one more year.  At this point it looks like Green is already playing them so they don't burn out so one more year is looking probable.

 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

2 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

Character is individual.  Culture is collective.

 

Benning drafts for character.  It takes a special person to affect the group.  Leadership that brings their positive character traits and takes the group in a good direction is pure gold.

 

I don't think that I'm going to convince you.  Agree to disagree.

We are running close to parallel here as Canucks fans. 

Just holding up slightly opposing points.

 

I really don't disagree with your posts. I just want my spin on them, which is what happens here with us all, I think. 

[EdgarM]

4 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

4 years of drafting and two players on the roster, yep, that is slowly alright.

 

Where will the "key components" be coming from?

Bo and Boes have already shown their capabilities. Jake is just starting to show what he can do. Demko and Juollevi should also play important roles. That's a pretty good start IMO. There are other prospects who may or may not pan out and then there is the matter of 14 million EXTRA Cap space next year! That should get us a pretty good player, no?

[gameburn]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 11:14 AM, bloodycanuckleheads said:

There should never be a rebuild.  Never.  Ever.  If you are in a position where you basically need to fire everyone and start from scratch - that implies years and years of horrendous mismanagement (and a complete inability to judge players or think-ahead). 

 

It should never get that far.  You should never have management that's that far removed from reality.  It should never get to the point where you need a rebuild.  You should have seen the problems coming literally years in advance (and done something about it).

 

So, yeah, a rebuild is irrefutable evidence that your management has been horrifically incompetent for a very, very long time.  That's what a rebuild is.

If "rebuild" is = everything renewed, then you are absolutely right.  

 

On the other hand, the imagination required to move the Sedins and Edler 2 or even 3 years ago is what would have been required to avoid a "renewal from top to bottom."  Moved for picks and a prospect or two... the team could have avoided the rebuild = tank model that has become the norm around the NHL and our de facto model last year and maybe even this year.  I don't see any other way it could have been done.

 

If we had done the twins and Edler move, then Bieksa and maybe even Burr could have provided that transitional leadership. 

[189lb enforcers?]

1 minute ago, gameburn said:

If "rebuild" is = everything renewed, then you are absolutely right.  

 

On the other hand, the imagination required to move the Sedins and Edler 2 or even 3 years ago is what would have been required to avoid a "renewal from top to bottom."  Moved for picks and a prospect or two... the team could have avoided the rebuild = tank model that has become the norm around the NHL and our de facto model last year and maybe even this year.  I don't see any other way it could have been done.

 

If we had done the twins and Edler move, then Bieksa and maybe even Burr could have provided that transitional leadership. 

I will raise you a Matthews or even a McDavid.

 

Team Tank 

 

[gameburn]

Just now, 189lb enforcers? said:

I will raise you a Matthews or even a McDavid.

 

Team Tank 

 

Or a Nico Hischier.

[gameburn]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 10:50 PM, shazzam said:

 

I rather have a culture where players work hard, play with their heart and the right way. It's okay to lose games. It's a rebuild and it's going to happen often. What I don't want to see is what's happening now. Our vets are here on vacation. They give half ass efforts and that is not a healthy culture. 

 

And asking to stay on, because they like the lifestyle here. Because they can't "imagine" playing anywhere else. Lol.

[gameburn]

On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 5:33 PM, kingofsurrey said:

 You don't develop young guys by mentoring with UFA 's  that are signed at 32 years old and don't even backcheck  or throw a hit. 

I'm not sure UFAs can mentor at all.  This is why Bieksa and Burrows would have been more useful than Vanek, Gagner or Vrbata: these guys were drafted by the Canucks and bled for the team, understood the culture here.  But to do that, we would have had to move the Sedins and Edler prior to moving Bieksa and Burrows.  (2014? 2015?) 

[TheGuardian_]

20 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

How do you explain how the Oilers floundered for years despite so many 1st OA picks.  Same with the Leafs.  Nothing changed until they cut out the bad wood.  Why don't the Jets do better?  Or why are the Sabres so far behind the Oilers?  They both tanked for McDavid. 

I don't mean to diss Edmonton but look at the city, climate and media scrutiny, similar in Buffalo. Buffalo didn't hire the very best coach out there and there could be an internal cap limiting how much money they can pay out for management guys.

 

TO hired a league guy, Shanahan, broke the bank in hiring Babcock and even traded a pick to get Lamorello, took on bad contracts to get picks and made in division trades, anything to get the young core players they now have.

Edmonton hired a professional CEO with tons of amateur and professional contacts and hired the best GM and coach available who knows how much they paid the coach, they also made ballsy trades. 

 

Both teams got lucky in the draft. TO was going to get a very good player no matter what that year. 

 

They did have many good players but a lot of them decided to move on. I think Hall liked the room enough to stay. Years of indifferent goaltending, coaches coming in to "take charge", nothing against Quinn but he may have been the best coach they had even though he was a part timer until recently.

The management group was just like the Nuck group now, buddies, old players and family members, no real professional management guys. Benning may have been listed as an assistant in Boston but he was just that and nothing more, an assistant. In looking over their drafting it appears that he may have been promoted so the new guy could take over. He/management group certainly haven't shown any savy in contract negotiations.

[TheGuardian_]

35 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Part of that is intentional - hence bringing in vets as place holders.  

 

The goal isn't to rush a bunch of teenagers to the NHL.

So in 4 more years they team gets another 4 guys? And the one's we have now are 26+ and still not stars in the NHL by comparison? So it looks like at least a 12 year re-whatever right? And then they are where they are now?

 

All the top teams that have elite level players will have to rebuild as getting those players mostly come from the draft in the very early rounds hence Tallon's quote of "you have to get bad, to be good" in other words, draft in the very early rounds or hit on a 1 in 500 chance of getting a star in the later rounds.

 

Every team that loses their elite players goes down in the standings, some team's plan for it.

 

You know maybe the Canucks are planning/executing the invisible tank, years of being bad enough to get top picks unfortunately they are not quite bad enough and their selection successes are not something to be desired. It could be just a league mandate that doesn't allow for the word tank or rebuild, the league does control a lot of media content. TO wouldn't care, they would just do it, they are one of two teams and the only one that have challenged the NHL and won, the Rangers were the other one.

[IBatch]

35 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Serious, on here?

We don't have time for that, I'd hope. 

 

I'm thrilled they are turning the corner with this seemingly rudderless enterprise.

I am not complaining about the good the Canucks have coming. I'm putting my cheer outfit back on because I have nothing to bitch about... unless the TDL passes with this roster intact.

 

This is the happiest I've been with the team in years. I'm not going to dwell on the past anymore and am pulling myself out of this tendency to look at the past and not the future of this team. Wish me luck. 

 

 

 

 

Bear with me an even longer reply than usual. 

 

Very well said and great idea.  It can be  fun to rehash what could have been, or not so fun if the topic is why lost to Boston, how the refs and league have it in for us etc.etc.

Living in the past takes away from what we can enjoy in the present but in the context of a Vancouver fan it can be really, really hard to do.

 

I'm still conflicted over Messier given I grew up idolizing the Oilers dynasty.  I don't eat Lays. Also loved Smyl, Tanti, Butcher etc..

.the highs and lows of 94 still haunt me, so does acquiring Mogilny and then Bure gets injured...wow that team on paper was just sick...two fifty plus goal scorers plus Linden, Ronning ( he ended up getting like over 200 points in three hundred games for the Predators at the end of his career..one of our most consistent forwards and awesome secondary scorer) a balanced defense that would give 2011s a run for their money... after 94 and with more or less the same team PLUS Mogilny made me feel that our first cup(s) were coming soon....

 

Fact is after 94 and losing Bure, Messier coming in and blowing the team up with Keenan at the helm some of the luster was gone and I never really got into the Naslund ers until a year or so before the Bertuzzi incident (still went to a lot of games then, and watched and listened to a lot of hockey, it just was different than it used to be)...we were killing it at the time Naslund was at the top of his game and the league and i believed we were contenders that Spring..Moore and the retribution left a scar...

 

Early on the Sedins never excited me much although I really liked Burke..he was the first GM since Quin I could really get behind.  Eventually the twins won me over and when we got Luongo I knew right then and there that we had something really special coming.  Was a huge fan of Luongo already and couldn't believe we got him for  Bertuzzi...,

 

Burrows, Kesler and co and all the winning made things fun again in the moment all the tribulations of the past were gone.  The league at the time after the lockout aside from the shoot out was exciting again, after the dead puck era hockey was fast and crisp, like it was in the eightees and early nineties.  And Vancouver for the first time ever was the best team in the league.

 

Then Boston.  Ughh.  Being a fan of this team is hard and it's even recognized in print by THN.  A couple years ago they made some arbitrary catagories to see what fans suffered the most and no surprise, we came out on top.  Not that winning something like that is good, but it was cathartic reading it and getting the acknowledgement.  

 

So.  189 lb enforcer, I wish you the best on this quest to not bring up the past and live and enjoy the present with an eye to the future.  I would try that too but after all this time I know I would be lying to myself.

 

The bright side to all this of course is image how it's going to feel  win our first cup?  Good Luck!