TheGuardian_

What Are Your Thoughts of What A Rebuild Is?

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1 hour ago, EdgarM said:

How do we know who is  going to be our "key core players" ? Do they always need to be "High"  1st round picks? AND ....do they need to be drafted by us? I agree we need key players but they can come from anywhere.

So true. Key players come from all over the draft charts.

 

Gudreau is key player for Calgary i would assume. - 5th round pick

Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, Chara, 2nd & 3rd round players

Getzlaf Perry Kesler all late 1st rounders.

Kucherov  late 2nd rounder

Kopitar mid 1st rounder

Zetterberg  -round 7

Datsyuk  -round 6

Bure round 7

Sakic mid 1st rounder

Benn  -5th rounder

Boeser late 1st rounder

Martin St.Louis never drafted

 

Plus Many stars come after the top 5. Nylander, Ehlers, Rantanen, Tarasenko, Wennberg,  Pastranek all of the above etc.

I do get the higher you draft the better the chances but that that's not the only way as history has shown.

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 

 

Bear with me an even longer reply than usual. 

 

Very well said and great idea.  It can be  fun to rehash what could have been, or not so fun if the topic is why lost to Boston, how the refs and league have it in for us etc.etc.

Living in the past takes away from what we can enjoy in the present but in the context of a Vancouver fan it can be really, really hard to do.

 

I'm still conflicted over Messier given I grew up idolizing the Oilers dynasty.  I don't eat Lays. Also loved Smyl, Tanti, Butcher etc..

.the highs and lows of 94 still haunt me, so does acquiring Mogilny and then Bure gets injured...wow that team on paper was just sick...two fifty plus goal scorers plus Linden, Ronning ( he ended up getting like over 200 points in three hundred games for the Predators at the end of his career..one of our most consistent forwards and awesome secondary scorer) a balanced defense that would give 2011s a run for their money... after 94 and with more or less the same team PLUS Mogilny made me feel that our first cup(s) were coming soon....

 

Fact is after 94 and losing Bure, Messier coming in and blowing the team up with Keenan at the helm some of the luster was gone and I never really got into the Naslund ers until a year or so before the Bertuzzi incident (still went to a lot of games then, and watched and listened to a lot of hockey, it just was different than it used to be)...we were killing it at the time Naslund was at the top of his game and the league and i believed we were contenders that Spring..Moore and the retribution left a scar...

 

Early on the Sedins never excited me much although I really liked Burke..he was the first GM since Quin I could really get behind.  Eventually the twins won me over and when we got Luongo I knew right then and there that we had something really special coming.  Was a huge fan of Luongo already and couldn't believe we got him for  Bertuzzi...,

 

Burrows, Kesler and co and all the winning made things fun again in the moment all the tribulations of the past were gone.  The league at the time after the lockout aside from the shoot out was exciting again, after the dead puck era hockey was fast and crisp, like it was in the eightees and early nineties.  And Vancouver for the first time ever was the best team in the league.

 

Then Boston.  Ughh.  Being a fan of this team is hard and it's even recognized in print by THN.  A couple years ago they made some arbitrary catagories to see what fans suffered the most and no surprise, we came out on top.  Not that winning something like that is good, but it was cathartic reading it and getting the acknowledgement.  

 

So.  189 lb enforcer, I wish you the best on this quest to not bring up the past and live and enjoy the present with an eye to the future.  I would try that too but after all this time I know I would be lying to myself.

 

The bright side to all this of course is image how it's going to feel  win our first cup?  Good Luck!

 

Know thy self.

Sounds like a brother from another mother.

 

Most posters we quote have no clue about the team's past. I've made a point of reminding folks that this was a respectable team, pre WCE, if only for its toughness and character. Then came the Naslund captaincy and then the Sedins. I've not identified with this team in over a decade, nearing two, but that's coming to an end. 

 

In a box, somewhere lost in my basement, are the trinkets from my youth. Carefully folded, though full of holes from wear and battery acid from a 1967 GMC truck, is my old, black Canucks t-shirt. I've only worn it a few times since 1994, including the day the Vancouver losers rioted over losing.

 

If one day you see a 6'3 middle-aged white guy wearing a shirt matching this description, cut a bit tight in the stomach though, you'll see the face of a long suffering Canucks fan. "We" instantly recognize each other in these instances, especially in smaller towns and give a nod, in passing. I love that. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 189lb enforcers?
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1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Know thy self.

Sounds like a brother from another mother.

 

Most posters we quote have no clue about the team's past. I've made a point of reminding folks that this was a respectable team, pre WCE, of only for its toughness and character. Then came the Naslund captaincy and then the Sedins. I've not identified with this team in over a decade, nearing two, but that's coming to an end. 

 

In a box, somewhere lost in my basement, are the trinkets from my youth. Carefully folded, though full of holes from wear and battery acid from a 1967 GMC truck, is my old, black Canucks t-shirt. I've only worn it a few times since 1994, including the day the Vancouver losers rioted over losing.

 

If one day you see a 6'3 middle-aged white guy wearing a shirt matching this description, cut a bit tight in the stomach though, you'll see the face of a long suffering Canucks fan. "We" instantly recognize each other in these instances, especially in smaller towns and give a nod, in passing. I love that. 

 

 

 

 

I would have to put myself in your group as I remember "The 94 team" in which I still consider "THE" Canuck team. All the tools were there and I compare all players coming up to that team. There has been no summer that compares to that one including 2011. Man would I not give to still have Bure and Linden still playing on this team along with Odjick. OK, back to reality. B)

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23 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I would have to put myself in your group as I remember "The 94 team" in which I still consider "THE" Canuck team. All the tools were there and I compare all players coming up to that team. There has been no summer that compares to that one including 2011. Man would I not give to still have Bure and Linden still playing on this team along with Odjick. OK, back to reality. B)

There are plenty here who were here for the Canucks fist game. My tears are but a drop in their bucket. 

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13 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

There are plenty here who were here for the Canucks fist game. My tears are but a drop in their bucket. 

Ain't that the truth.   Lots of losses but man, we had a team in the NHL and it was ours. :)

 

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52 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I don't mean to diss Edmonton but look at the city, climate and media scrutiny, similar in Buffalo. Buffalo didn't hire the very best coach out there and there could be an internal cap limiting how much money they can pay out for management guys.

 

TO hired a league guy, Shanahan, broke the bank in hiring Babcock and even traded a pick to get Lamorello, took on bad contracts to get picks and made in division trades, anything to get the young core players they now have.

Edmonton hired a professional CEO with tons of amateur and professional contacts and hired the best GM and coach available who knows how much they paid the coach, they also made ballsy trades. 

 

Both teams got lucky in the draft. TO was going to get a very good player no matter what that year. 

 

They did have many good players but a lot of them decided to move on. I think Hall liked the room enough to stay. Years of indifferent goaltending, coaches coming in to "take charge", nothing against Quinn but he may have been the best coach they had even though he was a part timer until recently.

The management group was just like the Nuck group now, buddies, old players and family members, no real professional management guys. Benning may have been listed as an assistant in Boston but he was just that and nothing more, an assistant. In looking over their drafting it appears that he may have been promoted so the new guy could take over. He/management group certainly haven't shown any savy in contract negotiations.

I agree with you about Edmonton and Toronto.  That's what happened to get them both out of the hole they were in.  I'm talking about what happened in the decade before that.  

 

Benning is a professional.  He paid his dues.  Like everybody, he has his strengths and weaknesses but on a rebuilding team his skill set is good and we're starting to see results.  Linden is a figure head.  He's a smart guy but he's really only a PR guy and I think a liason between Benning and ownership.  I got the impression that one of the flaws of the previous regime was that Gillis spent too much time with ownership (particularly after 2011)

 

I think there is a lot of confusion as to the role of ownership.  I don't believe that they meddle in operations but they do have a role in determining strategy.  This is natural.  So if you want answers to the questions regarding why they don't have a fire sale, why they want to maintain a certain amount of competitiveness etc look to the owner.  In this city, if the team sucks, nobody will go to the games.  In Edmonton or Toronto, they sell out no matter what.  Ownership has placed restrictions on the plan that in many peoples opinion, has slowed down the rebuild.  Any other GM would have to work under the same restrictions.   

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27 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

There are plenty here who were here for the Canucks fist game. My tears are but a drop in their bucket. 

I been around since 1990, just a young lad then, watching the games on BCtv. 27 years of agony... might not be original school... but I’ve been around for a while.   I miss that 94 team, back when men played hockey. 2 lockouts in the last 10ish years and entitled teenagers coming from rich backgrounds have kind of soured me from the professional game. Also uninformed opinions of those that have never played any type of real hockey kind of annoy me(you know the ones, probably never rode a bus across the province with teammates, got into a line brawl, never had 700+ fans cheer when you unexpectedly score a tying goal...etc)

 

 But in spite of this, I still have hope somewhere deep down that my Nucks win a cup. But I know the next few years I’ll be considerably less invested in them and more focused on my kids trying to groom them to the BCHL or at the very least jr B, to try at a scholarship or something :)

 

Root for us all bud.

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1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Know thy self.

Sounds like a brother from another mother.

 

Most posters we quote have no clue about the team's past. I've made a point of reminding folks that this was a respectable team, pre WCE, if only for its toughness and character. Then came the Naslund captaincy and then the Sedins. I've not identified with this team in over a decade, nearing two, but that's coming to an end. 

 

In a box, somewhere lost in my basement, are the trinkets from my youth. Carefully folded, though full of holes from wear and battery acid from a 1967 GMC truck, is my old, black Canucks t-shirt. I've only worn it a few times since 1994, including the day the Vancouver losers rioted over losing.

 

If one day you see a 6'3 middle-aged white guy wearing a shirt matching this description, cut a bit tight in the stomach though, you'll see the face of a long suffering Canucks fan. "We" instantly recognize each other in these instances, especially in smaller towns and give a nod, in passing. I love that. 

 

 

 

 

Hah how true!  I don't have the privilege to see any games in Vancouver anymore given my proximity to Ottawa.  For the last seven years the annual pilgrimage to the Sens arena to see the Canucks, and sometimes Montreal too if  I'm lucky I always see a couple guys wearing the downhill flying skate and we share a grin.  There is a lot of displaced fans wearing blue and green, way more than black or something even more retro, so it's always nice to see someone around my age wearing the colours of the past in enemy territory.  

 

Recently I was given a western conference final champs shirt from 94.  I look forward to taking a spin in it next trip to the arena, no matter who is playing the Sens, it's grey with the skate in all its glory.

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9 minutes ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

I been around since 1990, just a young lad then, watching the games on BCtv. 27 years of agony... might not be original school... but I’ve been around for a while.   I miss that 94 team, back when men played hockey. 2 lockouts in the last 10ish years and entitled teenagers coming from rich backgrounds have kind of soured me from the professional game. Also uninformed opinions of those that have never played any type of real hockey kind of annoy me(you know the ones, probably never rode a bus across the province with teammates, got into a line brawl, never had 700+ fans cheer when you unexpectedly score a tying goal...etc)

 

 But in spite of this, I still have hope somewhere deep down that my Nucks win a cup. But I know the next few years I’ll be considerably less invested in them and more focused on my kids trying to groom them to the BCHL or at the very least jr B, to try at a scholarship or something :)

 

Root for us all bud.

The Brooklyn Dodgers took 65 years to win a world series. Losing to the Yankees 4 times in the World Series. The Cubs took 108 years. 

Now ask about patience again? 

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Rebuilding the core has always been hampered by the NTC/NMCs handed out in the previous era. 

 

You can't simply ignore this as if all of those contracts can be broken, and that anyone asked to waive will waive. You have to first treat those as immovable parts until or unless there's room to move. 

 

At one point not long ago, we had upwards of 10 NTC/NMCs in some form.

 

That was the biggest obstacle standing in the way of changing the core. We had to wait years to peel away the immovable parts. 

 

Looking back ...

 

We went to the Cup in 2011. We didn't get back in 2012. The following year in 2013 should have been the start of our rebuilding period. We were at a crossroads.

 

Instead, what happened that year? We signed the then 33 year old Sedins to four year contracts, Edler to a six year contract, and Hansen to a four year deal. And we also hired Torts that year who knew this core had to change.

 

And since Burrows, Bieksa, Hamhuis, and Kesler were signed until 2016, and we had previously given Garrison a longer term deal, we instead doubled down in 2013 with the same core when it was increasingly clear our window had already closed. 

 

We put ourselves on a path where if we couldn't rebuild the core, the only thing we could change was the coach. To some degree, both Torts and Willie were casualties of those NTC/NMCs.

 

Those contracts also meant a slower burn into mediocrity and slower rate of drafting high for an impact player. 

 

Major change didn't really happen until the season after getting bounced by Calgary. That was two full seasons after we were at a major crossroads.

 

But I get both sides of this. We had little to no depth or youth in 2013, we just came out of a win now mentality, and we mortgaged our future to climb the mountain. In the end, to large degree, we hampered our ability to rebuild our core and rebuild in the near future out of necessity in the now. 

 

I think the takeaways are in recognizing when your window is closed, recognizing when you're at a major crossroads, having the courage to pull back and assess instead of doubling down, knowing the right time to make difficult decisions for the future, adapt early or get left behind, and enduring short term pain for long term gain. 

 

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On 17/10/2017 at 2:54 PM, 189lb enforcers? said:

As long as JB can cut some roots if the ream is overachieving and force it to stay in a position to draft impact players, I will be satisfied with the result.

 

If this team finishes out of lotto contention, I will consider this a failure of management's execution of a rebuild plan. 

 

So in other words intentionally tank.  I'm not a huge fan of that but do think it can be a good strategy if the draft year is very good.   We need the stars so I wouldnt hold it against him if he did this but I fear if we have a spot he won't sell when he should.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Rebuilding the core has always been hampered by the NTC/NMCs handed out in the previous era. 

 

You can't simply ignore this as if all of those contracts can be broken, and that anyone asked to waive will waive. You have to first treat those as immovable parts until or unless there's room to move. 

 

At one point not long ago, we had upwards of 10 NTC/NMCs in some form.

 

That was the biggest obstacle standing in the way of changing the core. We had to wait years to peel away the immovable parts. 

 

Looking back ...

 

We went to the Cup in 2011. We didn't get back in 2012. The following year in 2013 should have been the start of our rebuilding period. We were at a crossroads.

 

Instead, what happened that year? We signed the then 33 year old Sedins to four year contracts, Edler to a six year contract, and Hansen to a four year deal. And we also hired Torts that year who knew this core had to change.

 

And since Burrows, Bieksa, Hamhuis, and Kesler were signed until 2016, and we had previously given Garrison a longer term deal, we instead doubled down in 2013 with the same core when it was increasingly clear our window had already closed. 

 

We put ourselves on a path where if we couldn't rebuild the core, the only thing we could change was the coach. To some degree, both Torts and Willie were casualties of those NTC/NMCs.

 

Those contracts also meant a slower burn into mediocrity and slower rate of drafting high for an impact player. 

 

Major change didn't really happen until the season after getting bounced by Calgary. That was two full seasons after we were at a major crossroads.

 

But I get both sides of this. We had little to no depth or youth in 2013, we just came out of a win now mentality, and we mortgaged our future to climb the mountain. In the end, to large degree, we hampered our ability to rebuild our core and rebuild in the near future out of necessity in the now. 

 

I think the takeaways are in recognizing when your window is closed, recognizing when you're at a major crossroads, having the courage to pull back and assess instead of doubling down, knowing the right time to make difficult decisions for the future, adapt early or get left behind, and enduring short term pain for long term gain. 

 

Forget what has happened since the end of the 2012 season.  Take yourself back to June 2012.  AV is your coach and this is your team:

 

2011 - won Presidents Trophy, lost in SCF

2012 - won Presidents Trophy, lost in 1st round of playoffs

 

Now at this point, your core is:

Hank 32, 81 pts

Dank 32, 67 pts

Burrows, 31, 52 pts

Kesler 28, 49 pts

Edler 26, 49 pts

Bieksa 31, 44 pts

Hamhuis 30, 37 pts

Salo 37, 25 pts who retires but Tanev is there to replace

Lui 32, 0.919 s%

Schneider 25, 0.937 s%

 

What makes you think that this team should be torn down?  Retool?  Ok.  New coach?  Sure.  Torts?  OMG!!

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9 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

Forget what has happened since the end of the 2012 season.  Take yourself back to June 2012.  AV is your coach and this is your team:

 

2011 - won Presidents Trophy, lost in SCF

2012 - won Presidents Trophy, lost in 1st round of playoffs

 

Now at this point, your core is:

Hank 32, 81 pts

Dank 32, 67 pts

Burrows, 31, 52 pts

Kesler 28, 49 pts

Edler 26, 49 pts

Bieksa 31, 44 pts

Hamhuis 30, 37 pts

Salo 37, 25 pts who retires but Tanev is there to replace

Lui 32, 0.919 s%

Schneider 25, 0.937 s%

 

What makes you think that this team should be torn down?  Retool?  Ok.  New coach?  Sure.  Torts?  OMG!!

Well, AV's firing. Red flag #1. The massive drop from SCF to 1st round exit. Red Flag #2. 

 

But like I said, I said I get both sides. Trust me, I get what your saying. Why would you do anything other than hand out those contracts? Look at the numbers. 

 

For me, it's insight into where management's head was at the time. They were only going by the conventional line of thinking. And for business reasons, too. Conventional is safe for revenue. 

 

But they failed to see, as you point out ... 

 

2011 - won Presidents Trophy, lost in SCF

2012 - won Presidents Trophy, lost in 1st round of playoffs

 

That's a massive decline.

 

At that point, you have a couple options: believe we're a President's Trophy team that can get back to the Cup and ignore the massive drop from Cup final to 1st round exit ... Or ... Recognize you're the top regular season team in the league but those days are obviously numbered with an aging core and the gap proves you're window is over.

 

Not just that but also what you actually see on the ice. It's not a stretch to say we haven't been able to score since 2012. We all saw the problems.

 

I would like to think there was one person in the organization who played Devil's Advocate and said ... "Wait a second, let's just say those President's days are over. We're about to hand our four to six year contracts. Where will we be and what are the consequences. Can we really achieve our goals or are we overlooking something?"

 

 

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1 hour ago, Crabcakes said:

Forget what has happened since the end of the 2012 season.  Take yourself back to June 2012.  AV is your coach and this is your team:

 

2011 - won Presidents Trophy, lost in SCF

2012 - won Presidents Trophy, lost in 1st round of playoffs

 

Now at this point, your core is:

Hank 32, 81 pts

Dank 32, 67 pts

Burrows, 31, 52 pts

Kesler 28, 49 pts

Edler 26, 49 pts

Bieksa 31, 44 pts

Hamhuis 30, 37 pts

Salo 37, 25 pts who retires but Tanev is there to replace

Lui 32, 0.919 s%

Schneider 25, 0.937 s%

 

What makes you think that this team should be torn down?  Retool?  Ok.  New coach?  Sure.  Torts?  OMG!!

And remember we lost in the first round to the eighth seed who bested everyone else too on the way to their first cup riding a hot goaltender who barely lost on the way.   There really was no reason to panic, all we had to do was trade Schneider for a young goal scoring  star or PP specialistn  and history would be a lot different.

 

Instead blow it up?

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Well, AV's firing. Red flag #1. The massive drop from SCF to 1st round exit. Red Flag #2. 

 

But like I said, I said I get both sides. Trust me, I get what your saying. Why would you do anything other than hand out those contracts? Look at the numbers. 

 

For me, it's insight into where management's head was at the time. They were only going by the conventional line of thinking. And for business reasons, too. Conventional is safe for revenue. 

 

But they failed to see, as you point out ... 

 

2011 - won Presidents Trophy, lost in SCF

2012 - won Presidents Trophy, lost in 1st round of playoffs

 

That's a massive decline.

 

At that point, you have a couple options: believe we're a President's Trophy team that can get back to the Cup and ignore the massive drop from Cup final to 1st round exit ... Or ... Recognize you're the top regular season team in the league but those days are obviously numbered with an aging core and the gap proves you're window is over.

 

Not just that but also what you actually see on the ice. It's not a stretch to say we haven't been able to score since 2012. We all saw the problems.

 

I would like to think there was one person in the organization who played Devil's Advocate and said ... "Wait a second, let's just say those President's days are over. We're about to hand our four to six year contracts. Where will we be and what are the consequences. Can we really achieve our goals or are we overlooking something?"

 

 

Looking back from today, it's pretty clear that the early exit in 2012 was the beginning.

 

Gillis saw it perhaps 6 months later, or realized that he had dug the team into a hole, when he convinced ownership to purchase the team that would become the Utica Comets which closed Mar 2013 and traded Schneider for the 9th OA draft pick at the 2013 draft.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

The Brooklyn Dodgers took 65 years to win a world series. Losing to the Yankees 4 times in the World Series. The Cubs took 108 years. 

Now ask about patience again? 

Please no reminders.

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12 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Younger support players being phased in... I don't think anyone in here defined that as a rebuild. In fact, Chicago, must have been rebuilding all this time too, if I apply your logic there. 

 

Rebuilding the core, is rebuilding. Toronto truely attempted and successfully rebuilt theirs, or is in the final stages of it. Had the Canucks moved their best players out 4 years ago, instead of "it wouldn't be fair" strategies, the core might be closer to be being finished rebuilding, like the Leafs' is. 

Moving out older players and inserting youth is the very definition of rebuilding. A new core develops over time. Starting with noting time will be required.

 

TO had a huge head start on us. Last year there were a grand total of 3 Shanny draft choices on the team. So he didn't have to rebuild the entire team and stock a prospect pool like Benning has had to.

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11 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

2013/2014 average age = 27.6

2014/2015 average = 28.2

2015/2016 average = 28.3

2016/2017 average = 27.6

2017/2018 average = 27.4

 

These averages also include games where the younger guys on the roster played less than 8 minutes per game or were sitting out altogether.   

 

Height, Weight 

 

2013/2014 = 73.5" - 202 lbs

2014/2015 = 73.6" - 197 lbs

2015/2016 = 73.1" - 194 lbs

2016/2017 = 73.7" - 194 lbs

 

 

Who was Benning supposed to replace players with when he had no prosect pool to work with? Hence signing several older ufa's and trading for some NHL ready youth.

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