What Are Your Thoughts of What A Rebuild Is?

[RonMexico]

Simply drafting top end talent doesn't make a tanking rebuild successful. How are teams like ARZ? FLA? NYI? CBJ? COL? Forever bottom feeders getting top 10 even top 5 picks yearly. What has drafting early done for them? Are these teams so much better off than the Canucks?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

18 minutes ago, RonMexico said:

Simply drafting top end talent doesn't make a tanking rebuild successful. How are teams like ARZ? FLA? NYI? CBJ? COL? Forever bottom feeders getting top 10 even top 5 picks yearly. What has drafting early done for them? Are these teams so much better off than the Canucks?

You're right, simply drafting high end talent doesn't mean success, but it is one very important step involved in building a winner.

 

It's kind of like building a house.  You need a strong foundation, without it, don't expect your house to last long.

 

Now there's multiple ways to build a foundation but the most proven way it through the draft. 

[canucksnihilist]

59 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Who the hell were they suppose to play? There were no decent prospects other than Horvat. There's no magic wand to fill a propsect pool with NHL ready talent. Of course some ufa's were signed.

 

Trading for Vey, Etem, Baertschi, and Granlund were all rebuilding moves.

how about a player that they didn't have to spend $6 million per season on....  They paid that because they thought they could make the playoffs - and they traded away picks for players that are young but low-20s, so they could complement the aging core - that was still pushing for the playoffs.  It didn't work out, and it is too bad.  But that was their strategy.

 

Obviously drafting players yourself (especially if you have JBs experience) is better than trading for players and giving up picks - IF YOU HAVE TIME.  they thought they had no time, so that's the move they made.

 

listen, I know you have a point.  But can you concede that I do as well?  Obviously they weren't thinking rebuild when they first took control of the team.  It couldn't be more obvious.  And obviously they are thinking rebuild now.  And there was a transition period.

 

Please don't reply by stating the same arguments you have already stated.  If you want to respond, can you please indicate how signing a 6 milliion player as a UFA is part of a rebuild, and how trading away picks is part of a rebuild.

 

peace

[RonMexico]

18 minutes ago, canucksnihilist said:

how about a player that they didn't have to spend $6 million per season on....  They paid that because they thought they could make the playoffs - and they traded away picks for players that are young but low-20s, so they could complement the aging core - that was still pushing for the playoffs.  It didn't work out, and it is too bad.  But that was their strategy.

 

Obviously drafting players yourself (especially if you have JBs experience) is better than trading for players and giving up picks - IF YOU HAVE TIME.  they thought they had no time, so that's the move they made.

 

listen, I know you have a point.  But can you concede that I do as well?  Obviously they weren't thinking rebuild when they first took control of the team.  It couldn't be more obvious.  And obviously they are thinking rebuild now.  And there was a transition period.

 

Please don't reply by stating the same arguments you have already stated.  If you want to respond, can you please indicate how signing a 6 milliion player as a UFA is part of a rebuild, and how trading away picks is part of a rebuild.

 

peace

 

If you are a GM making trying to make a deal to get a specific player that you want in your organization right now and the other GM says you need to include a later pick 4th-7th round as part of the package, are you willing to walk away from the trade over a draft pick? Sounds totally absurd to me.  As a GM with a vast scouting network, you have to have in mind where you value a player's worth. Example: If your management team thinks Linden Vey was worth a 2nd round pick, so be it. You aren't going to be successful in every move you make.

 

Was spending 36M on Eriksson over 6 years a bad deal? Only in hindsight. If he scored 25 goals last season everyone would be singing the praises of JB. Instead, Unfortunately LE failed them team and in essence management has to eat crow. At least it was just money and no prospects were lost.

 

I suppose you could rarely trade a draft pick and rarely sign a FA but then you can easily look like Winnipeg right now with good young group of forwards, solid D and no goalie. Where does that get you? If Winnipeg falls flat this season which basically hinges on goaltending, Chevy can't sit on his hands. It's not like starting goalies are available off a goalie tree in the backyard.

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, RonMexico said:

 

If you are a GM making trying to make a deal to get a specific player that you want in your organization right now and the other GM says you need to include a later pick 4th-7th round as part of the package, are you willing to walk away from the trade over a draft pick? Sounds totally absurd to me.  As a GM with a vast scouting network, you have to have in mind where you value a player's worth. Example: If your management team thinks Linden Vey was worth a 2nd round pick, so be it. You aren't going to be successful in every move you make.

 

Was spending 36M on Eriksson over 6 years a bad deal? Only in hindsight. If he scored 25 goals last season everyone would be singing the praises of JB. Instead, Unfortunately LE failed them team and in essence management has to eat crow. At least it was just money and no prospects were lost.

 

I suppose you could rarely trade a draft pick and rarely sign a FA but then you can easily look like Winnipeg right now with good young group of forwards, solid D and no goalie. Where does that get you? If Winnipeg falls flat this season which basically hinges on goaltending, Chevy can't sit on his hands. It's not like starting goalies are available off a goalie tree in the backyard.

I don’t think the discussion is about (necessarily) whether Loui was a good signing or not.  The question is whether Loui’s signing (good or bad) was that of a rebuilding team?  I think not.  

[TheGuardian_]

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 0:19 PM, CoolCanucklehead said:

So true. Key players come from all over the draft charts.

 

Gudreau is key player for Calgary i would assume. - 5th round pick

Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, Chara, 2nd & 3rd round players - 2003 - 2004 - 1996

Getzlaf Perry Kesler all late 1st rounders. - 2003 - 2003 - 2003

Kucherov  late 2nd rounder

Kopitar mid 1st rounder

Zetterberg  -round 7 - 1999

Datsyuk  -round 6 - 1998

Bure round 7 - 1987 round 6

Sakic mid 1st rounder - 1987

Benn  -5th rounder - 2007

Boeser late 1st rounder

Martin St.Louis never drafted - 1998

 

Plus Many stars come after the top 5. Nylander, Ehlers, Rantanen, Tarasenko, Wennberg,  Pastranek all of the above etc.

I do get the higher you draft the better the chances but that that's not the only way as history has shown.

Scouting is much better today with the advent of the internet, "gems" will rarely slip through the cracks. How much GM's are using the new data is an individual choice, quite often the scouting services are now pretty good at their evaluations, taking the BPA is usually really is the BPA, GM's that go off that track often are making a mistake.

 

While your list comprises the very few exceptions it doesn't take into account the 10's of thousands of misses. You could go back even further to before, the 50's or 60's, Beliveau, Montreal bought a league to get him, Orr was Bruin's property at 15 yrs old and not drafted.

 

Bure snuck through because no other teams had the data that would be available today.

 

All know why Gudreau was bypassed, because most teams thought he was too small, a good analogue could be Wilson in the NFL. 

 

Defence men are not surprising that they can be found in later rounds just look up most of the recent Norris finalists, a large majority came in the later rounds.

 

There are misses due to believing that players may not come to North America.

 

Unfortunately many of the players you posted could have been Canucks but were missed.

 

As the internet and social media become more and more prevalent misses will become less and less and sure things more an exact science. Each year the advances in information available almost double even to the point of seeing what a prospects does on his time off.

[TheGuardian_]

5 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

We can't make many more excuses for the management of this team for its past. I am giving the SlimJim management until the TDL before I unleash my inner Guardian on them. Having dumped all roster players except the old core set this thing into a supernova. In time, this might be a bigger story than it is right now.

One of my main irritations is that this is the 21 century and rebuilds should not take 5 years, not with FA's available whether they are RFA's or UFA's, that and players coming out of junior hockey now are exposed to many more high calibre tournaments where they display their skills versus the best available in the world so many of them are physically prepared for the high stress of superior competition or rather to take the step into the NHL.

5 years is old school when there was not the information highway.

 

Another is that the most common fan that has even an inkling of hockey knowledge should see and recognize incompetence, selling hope is not enough unless that is all there is because of incompetence or management believes they can get away with fan stupidity.

 

All, or rather most fans should have seen the writing on the wall 4 years ago. 

[CeeBee51]

9 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

One of my main irritations is that this is the 21 century and rebuilds should not take 5 years, not with FA's available whether they are RFA's or UFA's, that and players coming out of junior hockey now are exposed to many more high calibre tournaments where they display their skills versus the best available in the world so many of them are physically prepared for the high stress of superior competition or rather to take the step into the NHL.

5 years is old school when there was not the information highway.

 

Another is that the most common fan that has even an inkling of hockey knowledge should see and recognize incompetence, selling hope is not enough unless that is all there is because of incompetence or management believes they can get away with fan stupidity.

 

All, or rather most fans should have seen the writing on the wall 4 years ago. 

[189lb enforcers?]

8 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

One of my main irritations is that this is the 21 century and rebuilds should not take 5 years, not with FA's available whether they are RFA's or UFA's, that and players coming out of junior hockey now are exposed to many more high calibre tournaments where they display their skills versus the best available in the world so many of them are physically prepared for the high stress of superior competition or rather to take the step into the NHL.

5 years is old school when there was not the information highway.

 

Another is that the most common fan that has even an inkling of hockey knowledge should see and recognize incompetence, selling hope is not enough unless that is all there is because of incompetence or management believes they can get away with fan stupidity.

 

All, or rather most fans should have seen the writing on the wall 4 years ago. 

Their first full year year was a write-off. Then there were some questionable moves. Then there was the 2017 TDL. At least things are trending upwards.

 

Thats about as positive as I can spin this whole re-thingy adventure. 

[Gaudette Celly]

25 minutes ago, CeeBee51 said:

lol!

Quite the tag-team of sprayers here, alright.

[stawns]

On 15/10/2017 at 1:01 PM, TheGuardian_ said:

Don't sell yourself short, it isn't rocket science and you don't even need a high school diploma that is why there all the other people to do things.

 

There is no hockey university to go to, true there are coaching seminars and things, but nothing certifies intelligence.

It isn't really all that hard to do many of the hockey jobs, some require a lot of education but not being the GM, coach, scout or apparently President. NHL GM's have it way easier than minor leagues, they can hire whoever they want to get jobs done, minor league guys sometimes have to do it all even for Hockey Canada.

You can't possibly believe that

[CeeBee51]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

You can't possibly believe that

I'm sure he does 

[Salacious Crumb]

2 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

One of my main irritations is that this is the 21 century and rebuilds should not take 5 years, not with FA's available whether they are RFA's or UFA's, that and players coming out of junior hockey now are exposed to many more high calibre tournaments where they display their skills versus the best available in the world so many of them are physically prepared for the high stress of superior competition or rather to take the step into the NHL.

5 years is old school when there was not the information highway.

 

Another is that the most common fan that has even an inkling of hockey knowledge should see and recognize incompetence, selling hope is not enough unless that is all there is because of incompetence or management believes they can get away with fan stupidity.

 

All, or rather most fans should have seen the writing on the wall 4 years ago. 

You have any examples of these 5 year 21st century rebuilds there champ?

[ilduce39]

10 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Players under 25 prior to 2014-15 season:

Leafs - Reilly, Kadri, JVR, Komarov, Gardiner, Brown, Leivo, Gauthier, Sparks

 

Canucks – Horvat, Tanev, Hutton, Markstrom, Kassian, Jensen, Corrado, Shinkaruk

 

As of April 2014, Leafs have 7 players on their rosters today from remaining from when shanny took over: Reilly, JVR, Gardiner, Kadri, Bozak, Komarov.  Everyone else has been drafted, signed, or traded for since Shanahan has taken over.

 

As of May 2014 Canucks have 8 players on their rosters today from remaining from when JB took over: Horvat, Hutton, Tanev, Edler, Sedins, Markstrom, Gaunce

 

 

Now consider those teams rosters and what they had for tradable assets....Players over 25

Leafs – Kessel, Dion, Franson, Bolland, Clarkson, Bozak, Lupul, Kulemin, Raymond

Canucks – H.Sedin, D.Sedin, Edler Garrison, Kesler, Hansen, Burrows, Hamhuis, Higgins, Bieksa, Lack, Matthias, Richardson, Santorelli

 

..the players the Leafs have left over are way better though.  That's the point and a key to their "quick" rebound. 

 

JVR and Kadri are both PPG players and Reilly has 7 points and Gardiner has 5.  Even Bozak has 5 points this year.  

 

Bozak, Kadri and JVR had more points last year than Horvat, our leading points guy, as well.  

 

THEN throw in Nylander and Marner.  

 

THEN throw in the good luck of landing Matthews instead of DuBois or Puljujarvi.  

[canuckpuckluck1]

I pose this question to you all. The Rangers have spent a good portion of the last decade chasing a cup and have consistently traded first round picks along with many second and third rounders for instant success.

Last year was an anomaly as they had 2 firsts. But the previous years look like this

2016 no 1 or 2 picks

15 no 1

14 no 1

13 no 1 or 2

12 no 3,6,7

11 no 2

10 no 3

 

Are we seeing this year that the lack of a quality prospect pool is catching up on them?

they are really struggling and maybe Lundqvist can't bail them out anymore.

i suggest this is a hell of a gamble to win a cup and it didn't work for the rangers, this is my eyes is not the way to rebuild. The draft is crucial 

 

[Baggins]

16 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Players under 25 prior to 2014-15 season:

Leafs - Reilly, Kadri, JVR, Komarov, Gardiner, Brown, Leivo, Gauthier, Sparks

 

Canucks – Horvat, Tanev, Hutton, Markstrom, Kassian, Jensen, Corrado, Shinkaruk

 

 

Does shanny have 10 players drafted by the previous leafs management?  Nope. 

 

As of April 2014, Leafs have 7 players on their rosters today from remaining from when shanny took over: Reilly, JVR, Gardiner, Kadri, Bozak, Komarov.  Everyone else has been drafted, signed, or traded for since Shanahan has taken over.

 

As of May 2014 Canucks have 8 players on their rosters today from remaining from when JB took over: Horvat, Hutton, Tanev, Edler, Sedins, Markstrom, Gaunce

 

 

Now consider those teams rosters and what they had for tradable assets....Players over 25

Leafs – Kessel, Dion, Franson, Bolland, Clarkson, Bozak, Lupul, Kulemin, Raymond

Canucks – H.Sedin, D.Sedin, Edler Garrison, Kesler, Hansen, Burrows, Hamhuis, Higgins, Bieksa, Lack, Matthias, Richardson, Santorelli

 

Well if you're including crap (Jensen, Corrado, Shinkaruk, and problem child Kassian). The following rookies played since Shanny took over:

Brown 2010

Gauthier 2013

Percy 2011

Carrick 2010

Loov 2012

MacWilliam 2008

Percy 2011

McKegg 2010

Granberg 2010

Carrick 2010

Gauthier 2013

Leivo 2011

 

Hmm. That's 12 drafted by the previous regime that played for Shanny. And I've only included rookies actually drafted by the Leafs.

 

Btw, I wouldn't consider Santorelli a tradable asset at all as he was lost for the season with shoulder surgery well before the trade deadline. And considering we were in the playoff picture we weren't sellers, taking out Matthias and Richardson as well. Not that either had much value. Hamhuis tied Bennings hands. Lack, Garrison, Kesler and Bieksa were moved. Edler is remains a tradable asset. And we all knew the Sedins weren't going anywhere.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

4 hours ago, Baggins said:

Well if you're including crap (Jensen, Corrado, Shinkaruk, and problem child Kassian). The following rookies played since Shanny took over:

Two different discussion of topics.  Those players listed had nothing to do with listing players drafted by a previous canucks regime.  Kassian wasn't even drafted by the canucks.   I could had easilty listed players like Gaunce, Grenier, Rodin and Labate but that wasn't the point of that topic.

 

Quote

Brown 2010

Gauthier 2013

Percy 2011

Carrick 2010

Loov 2012

MacWilliam 2008

Percy 2011

McKegg 2010

Granberg 2010

Carrick 2010

Gauthier 2013

Leivo 2011

 

Hmm. That's 12 drafted by the previous regime that played for Shanny. And I've only included rookies actually drafted by the Leafs.

Good job on doubling on the same players.  That might have worked in high school adding to the word count but it just looks sloppy when you're trying to prove a point.  Funny how you changed the parameters, since you realized how wrong you are. 

 

"Last year 13 leaf drafted players played for the leafs. Only 3 were drafted by Shanny. Does Benning have 10 Gillis drafted players to use?"

 

How many of those players played last year that were drafted by a different leafs regime?  7. 

Kadri, Brown, Komarov, Reilly, leivo, Gauthier, Bibeau

 

Canucks had 11....

Sedin, Sedin, Edler, Horvat, Burrows, Hansen, Hutton, Gaunce, Rodin, Grenier, Labate

 

The point you were making was complete straw anyways.  Because 15+ players on the leafs roster last years were brought in by shanahan. 

Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Zaitsev, Hyman, Hunwick, Polák, Soshnikov, Martin, Carrick, Marincin, Boyle, Andersen, Smith, Kapanen.  Just because leafs signed free agents Zaitsev or traded for players like Andersen instead of drafting doesn't mean Shanny didn't have a hand in building that roster

 

Your replies are getting sloppy baggins.  You usually are pretty good at coming up with a decent reply, have you just been too busy to focus lately?

[189lb enforcers?]

Another Guardian thread set to go past 20 pages. 

[TheGuardian_]

I wonder if looking into Benning's playing past, if his own personal experience has "flavoured" his GM style. from Wikipedia;

 

Though Benning's puck-handling skills provided him with security within the team's lineup, critics wanted him to play with greater physicality.^[10] He remained with the team, while two of the Leafs' other prospect defensemen, Bob McGill and Fred Boimistruck, were demoted to the Leafs' American Hockey League affiliate, St. Catharines Saints.^[11] Some analysts believed he was rushed into the NHL, resulting in lost confidence while playing for a struggling Leafs team.^[12]

 

After he was traded to the Canucks he was left off the roster due to the organization believing he was too small, at 6' - 180 lbs.

 

 

 

 

[48MPHSlapShot]

On 10/24/2017 at 7:34 AM, 189lb enforcers? said:

Another Guardian thread set to go past 20 pages. 

He's an expert level troll.