What Are Your Thoughts of What A Rebuild Is?

[189lb enforcers?]

13 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

 

[TheYjUstMaKeYoUwooZy]

12 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

Funny, the people that say they have patience.  Two years ago were saying that "there's more than one way to skin a cat" when it comes to rebuilding, and that trading draft picks for NHL ready players like Vey & Baertschi would be FASTER than drafting players like Toronto was doing.  That's patience?  OK.  Also being a bottom feeder would ruin prospects like it did for Edmonton and you would suck for the next 10 years.

 

Then when Toronto had success, the same people started arguing that of course Toronto is having success they had a head start compared to Vancouver.  Now them tanking wouldn't ruin them for 10 years.  Also, now being a bottom feeder magically no longer ruins prospects because hey, who cares about admitting you're wrong when you can just flip your point of view and ignore what you argued to death the last season.  

 

When you say that if Vancouver makes the playoffs this year, great because Benning is ahead of schedule.  If Vancouver had the worst season in team history, great because we get another sick prospect.  It's frustrating to argue with people like this because literally no matter what happens, in your opinion it's great.  Awful FA signings, blown draft picks, it's all defended.  Everything has an excuse.  You're straight up defending Benning giving our divisional rivals a 2nd round pick for a guy we couldn't give away on waivers, then have the audacity to say there are so few people that blindly defend Benning... as you're blindly defending Benning.  

 

Yes.  I understand the concept of trading for Vey.  It's the concept I hate, not the actual trade.  Some of Benning's trades have worked out, that one didn't.  It's not the value of the trade that I hated but the concept of trading away draft picks when you're a terrible team.  It's the opposite of rebuilding.  It's doing the opposite of what successful rebuilds like Leafs, Blackhawks and the Penguins did.

 

Just because I fundamentally disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand the concept of hockey moves.  

Then you must also disagree with  trading for Pouliet, Sven and Granlund.   Vey didn't work out, but Sven is a PERFECT example of what Benning was trying to accomplish with Vey.  Some work some don't.  Only people playing NHL 2018 get to reload and try again.  

[Fantomex]

21 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Last year I argued page after page about a line combination I think would be better

 

Yes, your relentless arguing is well documented on this forum.

[Rob_Zepp]

21 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Do have issues?  Perhaps memory loss? One too many pucks to the head?

I am very pleased we can agree 100% on one thing!    

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

 

[coolboarder]

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎26 at 3:05 PM, 189lb enforcers? said:

Do we fans also need to cheer for the management or can we discuss instead?

I cheer on the players best I can. Management is different. 

We should support any management we have here.  If we see that the team is improving, we should support them regardless.  We see the prospect cupboard was so bare and today, we see that it is beginning to fill up and it will look full in a few years.  If the team regress, it should not be a management fault and give them a benefit of doubt and attempt to rectify the situation.  The up and down cycle will always be a factor in a professional sport throughout the history. 

 

If the management is proven a good manager of the team on their upswing, we should keep them for a long term anytime we begins to go downward cycle and give them another chance to rectify the situation.   If they cannot get this back upswing after a few years of downswing cycle, we let them go after 4th year of downswing then find a new management team.   We should keep that in mind that game tend to pass people away as the game is always ever evolving.   

 

Most great teams tend to overlook drafting as their focus were present, and focused on getting a current players in expense of their future and that is a natural reaction.   What if a team decides to focus on both?  They'd be a strong team for years to come.   This hasn't happened yet but the Blackhawks seems to be doing this both but hasn't establish a dynasty by winning the cup back to back years.  

 

Benning seems to be focusing on both, present and the future.  He might use that strategy to still be focusing on both aspect the management, present and future.  He understood that present is also important as fans tend don't have any patience and wants results right away.  He knew that and still keeping his eyes on the future.  He also knows that by focusing in the present, it cost him a chance to land a first overall pick so he is doing his homework, finding talents within his control when it's their turn to make a pick.   He also knows that tanking does not work for decades so why bother with that?  Penguins tanked to get Lemieux and they did not come out on a winning team right away and it would takes a few more years to get to the top.   That's a long wait.  They did not qualify for the playoffs for 5 of next 6 years before winning their first cup after drafting Lemieux.

[flickyoursedin]

Benning has a no stones unturned strategy. His scouting is phenomenal so I’m okay with the odd pick given up for guys a little older that are in the shadows of teams with great depth. Our team has youth and playing great and our prospects outside of the NHL are playing phenomenally. I am just as excited about Utica playing and stat watching our top prospects as I am with the NHL club. Almost everyday is a feel good day with somebody Canuck related playing great.

[ilduce39]

JB has had to rebuild every facet of the organization - NHL, AHL and amateur prospect pool.  That's a rebuild.

 

This year it's really starting to blossom.  

 

Amateur players like Gaudette, Lind, Gadj, DiPietro all have pro upside.

 

The Comets have some exciting pieces like Goldy and Demko while Juolevi, Dahlen and Petterson are playing well in Europe.

 

In the NHL the team is playing exciting hockey being largely led by the 25 and younger crowd.  Bo, Brock, Granny, Baer, Jake, Stecher, Hutton, Guddy, Pouliot.  All young, solid players.

 

The rebuild may not have perfectly gone the way people wanted but you can't say JB hasn't revamped the organization from top to bottom in his 4 years.  We look stronger and more stable at every level and there's some serious upside to come.  

[CeeBee51]

29 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

JB has had to rebuild every facet of the organization - NHL, AHL and amateur prospect pool.  That's a rebuild.

 

This year it's really starting to blossom.  

 

Amateur players like Gaudette, Lind, Gadj, DiPietro all have pro upside.

 

The Comets have some exciting pieces like Goldy and Demko while Juolevi, Dahlen and Petterson are playing well in Europe.

 

In the NHL the team is playing exciting hockey being largely led by the 25 and younger crowd.  Bo, Brock, Granny, Baer, Jake, Stecher, Hutton, Guddy, Pouliot.  All young, solid players.

 

The rebuild may not have perfectly gone the way people wanted but you can't say JB hasn't revamped the organization from top to bottom in his 4 years.  We look stronger and more stable at every level and there's some serious upside to come.  

but, but, but he didn't trade everybody over 25 or stock up on a gazillion picks.

 

[TheGuardian_]

17 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

Funny, the people that say they have patience.  Two years ago were saying that "there's more than one way to skin a cat" when it comes to rebuilding, and that trading draft picks for NHL ready players like Vey & Baertschi would be FASTER than drafting players like Toronto was doing.  That's patience?  OK.  Also being a bottom feeder would ruin prospects like it did for Edmonton and you would suck for the next 10 years.

 

Then when Toronto had success, the same people started arguing that of course Toronto is having success they had a head start compared to Vancouver.  Now them tanking wouldn't ruin them for 10 years.  Also, now being a bottom feeder magically no longer ruins prospects because hey, who cares about admitting you're wrong when you can just flip your point of view and ignore what you argued to death the last season.  

 

When you say that if Vancouver makes the playoffs this year, great because Benning is ahead of schedule.  If Vancouver had the worst season in team history, great because we get another sick prospect.  It's frustrating to argue with people like this because literally no matter what happens, in your opinion it's great.  Awful FA signings, blown draft picks, it's all defended.  Everything has an excuse.  You're straight up defending Benning giving our divisional rivals a 2nd round pick for a guy we couldn't give away on waivers, then have the audacity to say there are so few people that blindly defend Benning... as you're blindly defending Benning.  

 

Yes.  I understand the concept of trading for Vey.  It's the concept I hate, not the actual trade.  Some of Benning's trades have worked out, that one didn't.  It's not the value of the trade that I hated but the concept of trading away draft picks when you're a terrible team.  It's the opposite of rebuilding.  It's doing the opposite of what successful rebuilds like Leafs, Blackhawks and the Penguins did.

 

Just because I fundamentally disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand the concept of hockey moves.  

Ah yes, the cheerleaders, the one's I term "employees'". They smell dead fish and call it roses, they grab burlap and call it silk, whatever Canuck management is trying to sell on that day. Make a realistic or even sensible suggested thought and get "astro surfed" to negativity.

 

Each day to some posters is brand new, nothing that has happened before is real and tomorrow promises everything regardless of time. Sure the Nucks will win the cup some time and now the cheerleaders jump on board and say "our future is bright", "just give them time" all the while ignoring the previous 3, 4, 5 or 6 years of team performance.

 

Never blame anything on the ordained leaders of the team, blame the previous regime no matter what those same folks were saying during that previous regime, now it is ALL that regime's fault. Clause contracts, even though the new guys signed more, get younger but the team signs older players than those jettisoned, no draft picks that could crack the president champs line up, no prospects even though there are no prospects from this regime playing after 3 years and only staring 4 years later, most are still from the previous regime.

 

Waste is what happening and the most valuable thing there is to waste, is time, once gone that's it, so lets continue to waste careers and years cheering for the inevitable Stanley Cup, in the future. Don't wonder "when" or "why" and then 30 some odd years later the tunes will change after seeing the same show 4 or 5 times. 

 

Let's forget about learning from mistakes, let's not examine why some teams get better faster, let's burn the books and start each day off without a hint of experience.

[CeeBee51]

17 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Ah yes, the cheerleaders, the one's I term "employees'". They smell dead fish and call it roses, they grab burlap and call it silk, whatever Canuck management is trying to sell on that day. Make a realistic or even sensible suggested thought and get "astro surfed" to negativity.

 

Each day to some posters is brand new, nothing that has happened before is real and tomorrow promises everything regardless of time. Sure the Nucks will win the cup some time and now the cheerleaders jump on board and say "our future is bright", "just give them time" all the while ignoring the previous 3, 4, 5 or 6 years of team performance.

 

Never blame anything on the ordained leaders of the team, blame the previous regime no matter what those same folks were saying during that previous regime, now it is ALL that regime's fault. Clause contracts, even though the new guys signed more, get younger but the team signs older players than those jettisoned, no draft picks that could crack the president champs line up, no prospects even though there are no prospects from this regime playing after 3 years and only staring 4 years later, most are still from the previous regime.

 

Waste is what happening and the most valuable thing there is to waste, is time, once gone that's it, so lets continue to waste careers and years cheering for the inevitable Stanley Cup, in the future. Don't wonder "when" or "why" and then 30 some odd years later the tunes will change after seeing the same show 4 or 5 times. 

 

Let's forget about learning from mistakes, let's not examine why some teams get better faster, let's burn the books and start each day off without a hint of experience.

[Gaudette Celly]

On 10/26/2017 at 2:59 PM, debluvscanucks said:

People who ARE supportive of the team (those, like me, who have come to accept losing as part of it all but still watch for entertainment value), get called homers and blind followers.  But just because we don't turn on or give up on the team, it doesn't mean we're stupid.  Just that we have different priorities in all of this.  Different expectations...

 

Many aren't fans of "the team", they're fans of "winning".  Only...

 

We all love the wins...but 82 games makes for a long season.  So when the team stumbles, they may pull out of it.  Instead of turning on them, that's the time to get behind them.

QFT

[TheGuardian_]

Green is getting an all out effort from this group of players, is that because he is fantastic, because he has 9 players on contract years? because he is just new, like WD was his first year? The really great schedule this year? .....Too early to tell.

 

I really like that Virtanen is now being played as a scoring threat, he certainly wasn't going to get there being on the third or fourth line. This where he should have been since he was drafted, the team didn't need a 3rd or 4th line guy.

 

Petersson is looking pretty/really good in Sweden and the end of the CBA will be just about when he is ready to come over full time so he might get an extra year over there or will they trot him out near the end of this season for a look, see. Maybe OJ as well, Both could be "lent" back to those Euro teams for another season.

 

Tryamkin is doing very well on his team 5th in scoring. Horvat, Boeser and Hutton.

[189lb enforcers?]

21 hours ago, coolboarder said:

We should support any management we have here.  If we see that the team is improving, we should support them regardless. 

This is the very definition of fanaticism.

If we were discussing a person or something sure, whatever, but we are talking about a business.

I don't agree.

 

 

 

 

[10pavelbure96]

17 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Green is getting an all out effort from this group of players, is that because he is fantastic, because he has 9 players on contract years? because he is just new, like WD was his first year? The really great schedule this year? .....Too early to tell.

 

I really like that Virtanen is now being played as a scoring threat, he certainly wasn't going to get there being on the third or fourth line. This where he should have been since he was drafted, the team didn't need a 3rd or 4th line guy.

 

Petersson is looking pretty/really good in Sweden and the end of the CBA will be just about when he is ready to come over full time so he might get an extra year over there or will they trot him out near the end of this season for a look, see. Maybe OJ as well, Both could be "lent" back to those Euro teams for another season.

 

Tryamkin is doing very well on his team 5th in scoring. Horvat, Boeser and Hutton.

I think if we continue on this upswing, Big Tree might want to come back. Hope so anyway, damn WD. 

[aGENT]

18 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

all the while ignoring the previous 3, 4, 5 or 6 years of team performance.

 

1st of all, 6 years ago, we were on our way to our 2nd president's cup and had just gone to the SCF.

 

2nd, the only people ignoring anything are the people not recognizing we were rebuilding, had no 'next wave' of ready prospects and simply weren't a very good team the last few years. 

 

 

[TheGuardian_]

36 minutes ago, 10pavelbure96 said:

I think if we continue on this upswing, Big Tree might want to come back. Hope so anyway, damn WD. 

Again the year 2020 comes up, if he continues showing as much improvement the team should be offering top 4 money, the 4 mil range. Even though they ae doing fairly well without him right now he would have made a trade much easier for the team to digest and speeded up the re-whatever. Now I just hope they don't trade his rights to a team like Toronto or Edmonton as he has the tools to be a juggernaut in the NHL.

24 minutes ago, aGENT said:

1st of all, 6 years ago, we were on our way to our 2nd president's cup and had just gone to the SCF.

 

2nd, the only people ignoring anything are the people not recognizing we were rebuilding, had no 'next wave' of ready prospects and simply weren't a very good team the last few years. 

 

 

Of course 6 years ago there were no prospects that could crack the line up and that didn't mean that some fans couldn't see the writing on the wall that the team was aging fast.

Even today if you look at the prospect pools of most teams that are better and most are from the last 3 to 4 years.

Detroit was able to transition once from one core to another but are now suffering the same problem as the Nucks, they were so high in the draft that they had no top six prospects drafted.

The Penquins will be there soon unless they trade for top picks, Washington is starting to deal with this. Many of the teams that were in the top of the league are almost exactly in the same situation as the Canucks, years of late draft picks and now are struggling. Some teams like Arizona and Buffalo are just a mess from ownership down. The Yotes may be on the sales block again.

 

Much of the Canuck success over the next few years will come from some top teams will be aging and the cap. Hence the thought of what TO did, the planned dive to the bottom rather than spend another decade in the middle of the pact, now they have the last 4 years of high ranked draft picks. TO had no more better players or prospects than the Nucks, Kadri = Horvat, Bozak and JVR  = the Sedins, if anything the Nucks were in better shape to take advantage of a planned dive. But that guarantee of success is now truly a crap shoot, a roll of the dice. Still being lower in the standings makes sense in later rounds and does improve the odds of garnering an elite player.

 

18% - 16% - 14.1% - 51.9%

Are much better odds for the top 3 than finishing 10th from the bottom

4.5% - 4.8% - 5.1%

[RogersTowell]

There are many ways to succeed and more ways to fail.  None of these ways are guaranteed to give the predicted result.  The Canucks had a pretty good run for with two cup finals in two decades and now we are in one of those periods where a cup is a distant dream.  Some might feel that tanking and getting a lucky lottery draw is the only way to succeed while others are willing to let the chips fall where they may.  Both of these methods could succeed.

 

No GM makes all good decisions and no GM makes all bad decisions (although a few have come close to the latter).  For me, when discussing the Canucks and Benning's tenure I see both good and bad.

 

Vey: turned out to be a bad trade, although if you look at the number of serviceable games we got from him, it wasn't very bad.  Balance this one out with Granlund and Baertschi - similar trades, but turned out very well.  Like Meatloaf said, two out of three ain't bad.  These kind of deals were mandated by the lack of a prospect pool.

 

Eriksson - looks like a bad signing so far.  Could be a terrible signing in the long run if things don't change soon.  Del Zotto is a great signing so far, Gagner so far not so good, but it's only a two year term at a manageable cap.  Vanek on a one year deal is just fine for me, he still has good hands and is a presence net front so as long as he didn't squeeze too many young guys off the roster that's fine and with both Boeser and Virtanen playing this year, I'm fine with it.

 

Drafting is looking pretty solid for Benning.  Boeser looks like he might be a superstar, Virtanen is coming along well and I'm starting to see Kassian as a floor for him.  Pettersson is looking like the steal of the draft as long as he can handle the physical game in the NHL, which is the only (and the big) question.  He spends a lot of time getting up off the ice, but he makes magic happen when he's standing.  Sick mitts, just completely filthy.

 

I'd really like to see one more top 5 pick this year, but I'm fine with seeing the team play well now too.  We're starting to see Benning's vision come to reality with the play in the first ten games of the season.  A fast talented group who can play a number of different styles of game.  They shut McDavid down completely and kept Ovechkin to a single assist.  It's still early, but the early signs are very good.  They look like a team who can keep pace with anyone.

 

We can compare to Edmonton (who we've beat in the only game of the season so far) or Toronto (who are having a great start but we haven't had a chance to play yet).  Or we can compare to the Coyotes (who, despite tanking and getting solid picks are still sucking harshly - I think they are intentionally tanking by not having a credible starting goalie this year) or to Winnipeg (who, despite tanking in 5 of their 6 seasons in Winnipeg are still not vying for a cup despite picking up a 'generational' in Laine).

 

In the end, you buy your ticket (on whichever model suits you) and you take your chances.  At times I've doubted what Benning has done (like when Virtanen wasn't cutting it or when I first heard Pettersson was picked at #5) but I'd have to say his successes have outweighed his failures.  We may not get a top pick this year, but at least we can have confidence that Benning will find a gem later in the draft.  He's building a Boston model team with a lot of balance.  Nothing in the way of generational talent but a lot of balance down the line up.  I'd give him a B so far considering what he started with and what he's made of it (especially when considering the prospect pipeline).  It would be nice to have a generational talent, but it's not worth bottom feeding for ten years to get one.

[-DLC-]

59 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

TO had no more better players or prospects than the Nucks, Kadri = Horvat, Bozak and JVR  = the Sedins, if anything the Nucks were in better shape to take advantage of a planned dive. But that guarantee of success is now truly a crap shoot, a roll of the dice. Still being lower in the standings makes sense in later rounds and does improve the odds of garnering an elite player.

 

18% - 16% - 14.1% - 51.9%

Are much better odds for the top 3 than finishing 10th from the bottom

4.5% - 4.8% - 5.1%

And Toronto hasn't done anything yet, so the verdict's still out. 

Planned dives = the message "YOU'RE not good enough, so we want you to lose so we get better guys".  That's a loser's game.

 

Quote

"But that guarantee of success" ..... 

It's always a crap shoot, there is no guarantee of success, so that's something that some fail to see.  Any team that:  gets hot, stays healthy, plays as a team, gets great goaltending, good officiating and some bounces can win.  So you always try to win, because it IS a crapshoot.

[Ghostsof1915]

1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

This is the very definition of fanaticism.

If we were discussing a person or something sure, whatever, but we are talking about a business.

I don't agree.

 

 

 

 

We aren't talking about potato chips, or a car. Sports is different. Without brand loyalty your product goes somewhere else. 

Once your NHL club goes, it would be very tough to get another one, and even if you did, it might be a club in worse shape that ours is.

Are you seriously criticizing someone for being a fan????? Maybe then sports isn't your thing then?