kingofsurrey Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Lets look at our vets.. forwards - 31 milllion in cap space allocated to them... 4 games played. Our vet forwards have combined for 4 goals. Simply not good enough and Travis sooner or later will HAVE to hold them ACCOUNTABLE. Last 3 Loui E, Gagner, and Vanek simply were not good signings.. I would have rather signed Tanner Glass and Cracknell..... at least they show up every night. Loui E - 6 Mil 32 yr old Hank - 7 Mil 37 year old Danny - 7 Mil - 37 yr old 1 goal Sutter - 4.3 Mil 28 yr old 1 goal Gagner 3.1 mil 28 yr old Vanek 2 mil 33 yr old 1 goal Dorset 2. 6 mil 28 yr old 1 goal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said: Lets look at our vets.. forwards - 31 milllion in cap space allocated to them... 4 games played. Our vet forwards have combined for 4 goals. Simply not good enough and Travis sooner or later will HAVE to hold them ACCOUNTABLE. Last 3 Loui E, Gagner, and Vanek simply were not good signings.. I would have rather signed Tanner Glass and Cracknell..... at least they show up every night. Loui E - 6 Mil 32 yr old Hank - 7 Mil 37 year old Danny - 7 Mil - 37 yr old 1 goal Sutter - 4.3 Mil 28 yr old 1 goal Gagner 3.1 mil 28 yr old Vanek 2 mil 33 yr old 1 goal Dorset 2. 6 mil 28 yr old 1 goal Do you really have to hold players accountable for not scoring? Isn't it a safe assumption that every player wants to score? It's also not the coach's job to worry about contracts. They put the best guys out there to help the team regardless - not worrying if someone is a bargain or not living up to their pay grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, Alflives said: How about keep them all, and have more prospects competing with each? You'd still be waiting for those picks. So is it any faster? You seem to be in a big hurry for the next core but don't seem to realize those later picks are anywhere from 3 to 5 years away from stepping on NHL ice. If they ever do. Scouting doesn't stop at junior. It doesn't stop when another player drafts a guy either. The scouting process continues to identify possible targets for trades. Trading for prospects is just as much a rebuilding tool as drafting prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Question: Which Bear/Baer is best? jk Serious question: When did Calgary's 'rebuild' take place? Anyone else miss it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: Do you really have to hold players accountable for not scoring? Isn't it a safe assumption that every player wants to score? It's also not the coach's job to worry about contracts. They put the best guys out there to help the team regardless - not worrying if someone is a bargain or not living up to their pay grade. This sounds good in theory but is not always true. Often times players with big salaries get to play regardless of their performance because the optics of sitting a player who is one of your highest earners does not look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odd. Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 21 minutes ago, Baggins said: No, we've been rebuilding from day 1. Get younger (rebuild), while trying to remain competitve for a playoff spot. They tried to move Hamhuis and Vrbata the year before. Why wasn't that an indication of rebuilding? Just because Hansen and Burrows were more agreeable with their ntc's doesn't mean we weren't rebuilding prior to that. Prior to that Booth and Higgins were bought out, and Kesler, Garrison, and Bieksa were traded. Those weren't indications of a rebuild under way? Then of course there were young players that hadn't established themselves in the NHL that they traded for. Vey, Etem, Baertschi and Granlund all fall into that category. Those were rebuilding moves as well. Who does that and then sign Loui Eriksson 6 years and 6M though? Quite counter productive isn't it when you're in a rebuild? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Firstly, a rebuild can't be viewed in the same way as pre-draft lotto tanks/rebuilds occurred. AHL development, trades, free agency and using the college system well have become more important since you can no longer rely on a specific draft position. I'd even add selecting a higher number of European players since its easier to get them into the AHL or Euro leagues to develop than picking kids from the CHL. Second, trades are very hard to make. Sure its nice in theory to say "trade the vets for picks" but in the current cap era and high value on picks its really hard to do this. So what does it look like? What Jim is doing, trying to pick guys with high upside that need a few years to develop, taking some chances on reclamation projects and slotting in overpaid guys to fill in spots in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spliced Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Canucks are in a unique situation with the Sedins being twins that play together, people have tried to spin that as a positive but it's really a negative to be all but forced into having to play 2 extremely similar players on the same team and line all the time since their weaknesses become double the issue than they would be with just a single player. I think once they are out from those contracts it will unshackle the team and give it a lot more options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 10 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said: Lets look at our vets.. forwards - 31 milllion in cap space allocated to them... 4 games played. Our vet forwards have combined for 4 goals. Simply not good enough and Travis sooner or later will HAVE to hold them ACCOUNTABLE. Last 3 Loui E, Gagner, and Vanek simply were not good signings.. I would have rather signed Tanner Glass and Cracknell..... at least they show up every night. Loui E - 6 Mil 32 yr old Hank - 7 Mil 37 year old Danny - 7 Mil - 37 yr old 1 goal Sutter - 4.3 Mil 28 yr old 1 goal Gagner 3.1 mil 28 yr old Vanek 2 mil 33 yr old 1 goal Dorset 2. 6 mil 28 yr old 1 goal Every one of those guys is a place holder until young guys are ready. So who cares what they make. How many goals would Glass and Cracker have after 4 games? You`re upset about their goal scoring and would rather sign two guys that aren`t really goal scorers. How does that make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Toews said: This sounds good in theory but is not always true. Often times players with big salaries get to play regardless of their performance because the optics of sitting a player who is one of your highest earners does not look good. If the GM puts pressure on the coach I can see it. That would suck though as they should be on the same page more or less. Super dysfunctional if it comes down to that. GM needs to let the coach decide the day to day personnel decision. LE, for example, is still a solid defensive and all-around player - there aren't 12 other forwards in the Canucks system who are better than him. He's not living up to his contact by any stretch, but there's a spot for him when healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Odd. said: Who does that and then sign Loui Eriksson 6 years and 6M though? Quite counter productive isn't it when you're in a rebuild? It's been a bad signing for sure but not sure how it's been counter productive to a rebuilding effort yet. The money hasn't hurt day to day operations and its not like we have a huge backlog of rookies getting stale in Utica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I can't help but think as long as Horvat is our top scorer we're doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 10 minutes ago, Odd. said: Who does that and then sign Loui Eriksson 6 years and 6M though? Quite counter productive isn't it when you're in a rebuild? By the time young guys are ready really take over his ntc is gone and his salary is well below his cap hit. He'll be a moveable asset to the cash poor teams. I'm not worried about his contract at all. He's a time buyer really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam126 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 59 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said: A proper rebuild is NOT loading up on older washed up UFA's. Losing 9-4 every night is a recipe for success! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 2 hours ago, Baggins said: What's backfired? The way I see it he's stayed the course. There's more prospects in the pool than I've ever seen. That's not an accomplishment. The franchise has almost never had a stacked pool in its history, and we'vee been arguably the worst team in the league over the past two seasons. He's had absolutely zero expectations to be a winner from most of the market. How hard is it really to suck and pick high at the draft? You could do it, I could do it, don't need a veteran NHL executive to get that done. We have some prospects should have more we don't have enough at least not if this is really year 4 of the "rebuild" which it's not 'cause if it was, we'd have a lot more/better prospects which we don't, 'cause it was never a rebuild Get it? 1 hour ago, MrCanuck94 said: Unless you have the chance to draft a McDavid/Matthews esque player, a quick rebuild is impossible. "Do it like TO, EDM, BUF did" Well yea they tanked and got the top picks. We tank and drop till #5, but let's blame JB on that? Take McDavid and Matthews off their teams and EDM is still a crap team and TOR is competitive, but not as good as they are right now. Again, who's asking for a quick rebuild? The people who want a proper rebuild know it's not fast or easy. This is like the #1 counterpoint Benning supporters bring up against the rebuild, but it's completely made up... nobody with a brain thinks it'll be fast or easy. 1 hour ago, Baggins said: No, we've been rebuilding from day 1. Get younger (rebuild), while trying to remain competitve for a playoff spot. They tried to move Hamhuis and Vrbata the year before. Why wasn't that an indication of rebuilding? Just because Hansen and Burrows were more agreeable with their ntc's doesn't mean we weren't rebuilding prior to that. Prior to that Booth and Higgins were bought out, and Kesler, Garrison, and Bieksa were traded. Those weren't indications of a rebuild under way? Then of course there were young players that hadn't established themselves in the NHL that they traded for. Vey, Etem, Baertschi and Granlund all fall into that category. Those were rebuilding moves as well. You've listed some rebuild moves. But you didn't mention the moves that have gone against that theme, like signing the walking, talking 6M of dead cap space for 6 years, or trading essentially two low 1sts for a depth D-man, or focusing on acquiring 20-something failing prospects instead of teenagers with untapped potential. Benning has made some rebuilding moves, but some isn't enough. He just dipped his toe in the pool when we really need him to do a cannon ball. 1 hour ago, Baggins said: So who cares what they make. The cap is never not important, it's always an asset whether it's being used on a player or it's open. I really hope nobody in management has ever thought "who cares what they make"... that would concerning to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 12 minutes ago, kanucks25 said: That's not an accomplishment. The franchise has almost never had a stacked pool in its history, and we'vee been arguably the worst team in the league over the past two seasons. He's had absolutely zero expectations to be a winner from most of the market. How hard is it really to suck and pick high at the draft? You could do it, I could do it, don't need a veteran NHL executive to get that done. We have some prospects should have more we don't have enough at least not if this is really year 4 of the "rebuild" which it's not 'cause if it was, we'd have a lot more/better prospects which we don't, 'cause it was never a rebuild Get it? Again, who's asking for a quick rebuild? The people who want a proper rebuild know it's not fast or easy. This is like the #1 counterpoint Benning supporters bring up against the rebuild, but it's completely made up... nobody with a brain thinks it'll be fast or easy. You've listed some rebuild moves. But you didn't mention the moves that have gone against that theme, like signing the walking, talking 6M of dead cap space for 6 years, or trading essentially two low 1sts for a depth D-man, or focusing on acquiring 20-something failing prospects instead of teenagers with untapped potential. Benning has made some rebuilding moves, but some isn't enough. He just dipped his toe in the pool when we really need him to do a cannon ball. The cap is never not important, it's always an asset whether it's being used on a player or it's open. I really hope nobody in management has ever thought "who cares what they make"... that would concerning to say the least. What's a proper rebuild? Gutting the team and intentionally tanking? We finished 2nd and 3rd worst the past two years, despite trying to remain competitive, so what are the tankers complaining about? We didn't do it intentionally therefore it doen't count. lol By the time the rebuild is done none of these contracts will matter. The only way it's hurt is the owners bottom line. So yes, who cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattJVD Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 4 hours ago, ilduce39 said: Except they didn't - Kadri, Bozak, JVR, Gardiner, Reilly, Komarov... most of those are guys in their mid to late 20s or early 30s who have long ties to the team. The Leafs jettisoned Kessel, Phaneuf and some riff raff but they kept a solid group of players. I think those player could equate to our Horvat, Sutter, Granlund, Tanev, Gudbranson. Let the twins retire, jettison our riff raff (though LE is probably untradable) amd we could move in the same direction. The lottery is just such a wild card, 1 win in our rebuild would do wonders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 5 hours ago, bloodycanuckleheads said: There should never be a rebuild. Never. Ever. If you are in a position where you basically need to fire everyone and start from scratch - that implies years and years of horrendous mismanagement (and a complete inability to judge players or think-ahead). It should never get that far. You should never have management that's that far removed from reality. It should never get to the point where you need a rebuild. You should have seen the problems coming literally years in advance (and done something about it). So, yeah, a rebuild is irrefutable evidence that your management has been horrifically incompetent for a very, very long time. That's what a rebuild is. Agree Rebuild is replacing the core Retool is replacing the support players These things should be going on all the time. I like what Wally Buono used to say (I paraphrase), "my job is to find people who can do the job better than the players I've got" So to repeat what BCH said above, if a team has to be stripped down, somebody hasn't been doing his job properly. It's a desperate move to fix a drastic problem. Drafting and development are equally important imo. You can draft all the immature talent in the world but if they aren't mentored and shown what it takes to be a pro it can take a very long time for them to figure it out for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuardian_ Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 1 hour ago, oldnews said: You're talking to yourself Guardian. And you're conflating two things - having rebuilt, whether that ever really took place (when?) and rebuilding. Columbus: Ryan Murray = 2nd overall Zach Werenski = 8th overall PL Dubois = 3rd overall Alex Wennberg = 14th overall Seth Jones = 4th overall / RJo= 4th overall Artemi Panarin = elite free agent signing acquired for / Saad, acquired for / Anisimov acquired for / Rick Nash = 1st overall = also equals Brandon Dubinsky. Adding a Boone Jenner (2nd round pick) via the draft Adding Bobrovsky for a 2nd and 2x 4ths don't hurt either Sonny Milano = 16th overall Nick Foligno acquired for Marc Methot. Sprinkle in a couple late picks like Atkinson, Bjorkstrand, and Savard.... Jake Vorachek = 7th overall - use him to acquire Jeff Carter - deal him for Jack Johsnon = 3rd overall.... Nah, they're not presently 'rebuilding'. Wonder how they got those young assets on their roster though? No what I was posting is; Would you call what those teams are doing now, rebuilding. Not what they did for the past decade or more. Today, no further back than the last 2 - 2 1/2 years. And NOT what they did to get where they are years ago, I am not asking for those teams rebuild issues, I am asking if what they do NOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davathor Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 We would be more of a REBUILDING team if Eriksson Vanek Gagner didn't get signed, Vanek is good trade bait if he plays well, but Eriksson looks like a horrible signing and Gagner looks pretty soft and perimeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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