Alflives Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 37 minutes ago, EdgarM said: Can you show some proof the direct correlation between "elite" players and winning a cup? Which "elite" player gives you the best chance? Like I said we had not one, but two, for many, many years now and still zippo for a cup. Almost every team has elite players on their team so no two "elite" players cannot be the same. So, I ask you again, can you elaborate on your theory? Look at the previous Cup winners: Pens, Hawks, Kings. Who are their elite players, and (where in the draft) were those players selected? Crosby and Malkin; Toes and Kane; Doughty and Kopitar. I think (could be wrong though) that Kopitar was the only one of these elite guy drafted outside the top five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt kilgore Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 On 2017-11-19 at 12:24 PM, FireGillis said: Damn right, I'm a proud member of tank nation because like a true fan, I care about the future of this team and want to see sustained long term success. Tanking works and without a successful tank last year we wouldn't have gotten pettersson and lind. Hoping for another top 5 pick this year or by some miracle dahlin, but it's looking like it's going to be a harder tank year. I'll never apologize for wanting what's best for this team long term. Problem is anti tankers have no long term vision and just want short term success even if it's not sustainable long term. We need as many high end prospects as we can get if we want to compete for a cup again. 2020 is the year I picked out to re-evaluate if I should still be on team tank. By then we should have a better idea on how our prospects are turning out and how realistic it is to start thinking about winning and the playoffs. Here's the thing "The Tank" is a fantasy. Its a wet dream. Its when you have time on your hands and you can close your eyes and drift off and imagine. Imagine that somehow we lose the most games of any team this season. Either through injuries or incompetence or both. And magically, we get a "McJesus" to take the team on his shoulders who carries us to the promised land. Roll credits. Aaaaaaaaaand scene! Or what is it to you? I'd like a definition of just who is in charge of this "tank" that you want to succeed. Obviously its out of your hands. Whose hands is it in? Not the players. The players, of the team you purport to cheer for, are your worst enemy, because they hate The Tank, and will do everything they can to thwart your plans. They want to score and win every game, even if just for selfish personal reasons in getting a better contract next time. And the coach is even more dedicated to winning now. His job is even less secure than the players as he'd be the first to go if your fantasy came true. So.....who is this Tank army you are part of? Not the owners either as they have repeatedly said they want a competitive team while rebuilding. And Benning and Linden answer to their boss. Obviously they are not a part of team Tank looking at the free agent signings they have made. Tanking implies that there is an element within the organization that is your ally, and you are cheering for them to "win". Sorry to tell you this but they don't exist. Your only team members are fellow CDCers that also do not understand reality, and have absolutely no power or influence to help you out. Now, is there a possibility that we have massive injuries this season to top players? Or worse, that our prospects like Virtanen and Boeser decline and we find out they just don't belong in the top six? And all that combines to make us drop like a rock in the standings? Yes of course, anything is possible. But that is not a tank. That is called BAD LUCK . And its bad luck for the fan in another way, a more important way. It means that our prospects will end up not as good as we thought. Or we have damaged their confidence from a season of losing. It doesn't bode well for the future at all. Getting one young stud, a few players up from where we'd get one otherwise, who will not guarantee a Stanley Cup regardless, is hardly a great tradeoff for our other rookies not working out as we wanted. So go ahead, along with the rest of Team Tank, and watch every game this season cheering when the other team scores and booing when Boeser snipes another game winner in. I personally do not know how a "fan" can even enjoy the game of hockey like that, but to each his own. I do wonder though how easy it will be to decide on the exact time to do a 180 and switch to being a fan that actually wants them to win again. I mean, even if they "tank" and get a top three next draft, will that be enough? Maybe another year or two? Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Alflives said: Look at the previous Cup winners: Pens, Hawks, Kings. Who are their elite players, and (where in the draft) were those players selected? Crosby and Malkin; Toes and Kane; Doughty and Kopitar. I think (could be wrong though) that Kopitar was the only one of these elite guy drafted outside the top five. When you look at the cup winners you should also look at the losers. Plenty of teams lose every year even though they have their own "elite" players. It takes another 21-22 players to make that team successful. A team that loses 4-5 players due to injury in the playoffs makes a bigger impact IMO then having 1 or 2 elite players when it comes to winning. Actually there are a lot of influences which make a team successful or not. What about when your goalie goes cold? Your team loses their confidence? Your PP sucks? An "elite" player may increase your chances but if they are not "playoff performers" then what good are they? I still believe you piece together your team with as many pieces as you can, however you can, to make the best team you can year in and year out. When those pieces wear out or leave? Then replace them. Keep going until you run out of options to make your team better. Drafting is not the be all to end all. That's like going to war with one weapon when you have a whole arsenal to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, EdgarM said: When you look at the cup winners you should also look at the losers. Plenty of teams lose every year even though they have their own "elite" players. It takes another 21-22 players to make that team successful. A team that loses 4-5 players due to injury in the playoffs makes a bigger impact IMO then having 1 or 2 elite players when it comes to winning. Actually there are a lot of influences which make a team successful or not. What about when your goalie goes cold? Your team loses their confidence? Your PP sucks? An "elite" player may increase your chances but if they are not "playoff performers" then what good are they? I still believe you piece together your team with as many pieces as you can, however you can, to make the best team you can year in and year out. When those pieces wear out or leave? Then replace them. Keep going until you run out of options to make your team better. Drafting is not the be all to end all. That's like going to war with one weapon when you have a whole arsenal to choose from. List the teams that win Cups without these elite top draft picks. I can only think of the 2011 Bruins. A team of good players, but not having the elite highly drafted stars, very rarely wins Cups. That's an undeniable fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Just now, Alflives said: List the teams that win Cups without these elite top draft picks. I can only think of the 2011 Bruins. A team of good players, but not having the elite highly drafted stars, very rarely wins Cups. That's an undeniable fact. You still didn't show me how these players actually directly won games aside from all of the other players on their team. Its like saying a team won because they had a goalie. Well every team has a goalie but I am sure they needed the assistance of the rest of their team mates to win a game. I am sure some of our great players played year after year and didn't win a cup every year of their careers. I am sure some hockey greats played without winning even one cup. Or........players like Bourque had to find another winning team to jump on so he could win a cup. Iginla? Not so lucky. Your argument is weak at best and I think you need more proof to show that there is a direct correlation then just the fact that these players were on the team when they won cups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, Alflives said: List the teams that win Cups without these elite top draft picks. I can only think of the 2011 Bruins. A team of good players, but not having the elite highly drafted stars, very rarely wins Cups. That's an undeniable fact. FUN FACT: The "Great One" Won 4 Stanley Cups in 21 seasons. After Edmonton, he went on to play 12 more seasons with LA, St. Louis and the NYR's and never won another cup. What was wrong with this "Elite" Player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, EdgarM said: You still didn't show me how these players actually directly won games aside from all of the other players on their team. Its like saying a team won because they had a goalie. Well every team has a goalie but I am sure they needed the assistance of the rest of their team mates to win a game. I am sure some of our great players played year after year and didn't win a cup every year of their careers. I am sure some hockey greats played without winning even one cup. Or........players like Bourque had to find another winning team to jump on so he could win a cup. Iginla? Not so lucky. Your argument is weak at best and I think you need more proof to show that there is a direct correlation then just the fact that these players were on the team when they won cups. I think each of those guys was an MVP in the playoffs too. I'm still waiting for the teams that win cups without these elite top picks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 minute ago, EdgarM said: FUN FACT: The "Great One" Won 4 Stanley Cups in 21 seasons. After Edmonton, he went on to play 12 more seasons with LA, St. Louis and the NYR's and never won another cup. What was wrong with this "Elite" Player? Since the lockout and the Cap. The new, better scouted, NHL. Guys like Orr and Gretzky weren't even drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Just now, Alflives said: I think each of those guys was an MVP in the playoffs too. I'm still waiting for the teams that win cups without these elite top picks? Almost EVERY TEAM has an "Elite" player or two so what is the odds one of these teams wins the cup. Say 25 teams have a couple of elite players on their team, what is the odds one of those teams wins the cup? Comparing apples to oranges there bud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Alflives said: Since the lockout and the Cap. The new, better scouted, NHL. Guys like Orr and Gretzky weren't even drafted. Yeah WAYNE GRETZKY was NOT an "Elite" player, yeah OK. Your argument is getting better and better the more you write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 30 minutes ago, Alflives said: I think each of those guys was an MVP in the playoffs too. I'm still waiting for the teams that win cups without these elite top picks? There's more to it than having an elite player or two. Having a complete team that can stay relatively healthy and a strong supporting cast for the elite players is just as if not more important than the elite players. It's nowhere near as simple as "just draft x amount of elite players." If it was the Oilers and Avalanche would have a cup or 2 now in the last 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe-max Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Alflives said: List the teams that win Cups without these elite top draft picks. I can only think of the 2011 Bruins. A team of good players, but not having the elite highly drafted stars, very rarely wins Cups. That's an undeniable fact. Benning has known this all along. That's why the Canucks have got 14 former first round picks on their roster compared to the Blackhawks' 6, the Penguins' 6, the Kings' 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said: There's more to it than having an elite player or two. Having a complete team that can stay relatively healthy and a strong supporting cast for the elite players is just as if not more important than the elite players. It's nowhere near as simple as "just draft x amount of elite players." If it was the Oilers and Avalanche would have a cup or 2 now in the last 5 years. Who are (were) the Oiler's and Avalanche elite players? I'd say, until McDavid, neither team had elite players. That's why they not only didn't win a Cup, but were really bad too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 1 hour ago, joe-max said: Benning has known this all along. That's why the Canucks have got 14 former first round picks on their roster compared to the Blackhawks' 6, the Penguins' 6, the Kings' 8. I don't understand:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 2 hours ago, EdgarM said: Yeah WAYNE GRETZKY was NOT an "Elite" player, yeah OK. Your argument is getting better and better the more you write. Wayne won Cups while playing for the Oilers, and (next to Orr) is the best ever. He wasn't drafted though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Alflives said: Who are (were) the Oiler's and Avalanche elite players? I'd say, until McDavid, neither team had elite players. That's why they not only didn't win a Cup, but were really bad too. Landeskog and Duchene. McDavid and Draisaitl. But without a supporting cast they're bottom feeders that have a hot season once in a while. Colorado was going nowhere fast with 2 elite players and traded Duchene for a ton of Depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 Just now, canuck73_3 said: Landeskog and Duchene. McDavid and Draisaitl. But without a supporting cast they're bottom feeders that have a hot season once in a while. Colorado was going nowhere fast with 2 elite players and traded Duchene for a ton of Depth. McDavid and Draisatl are elite, yes. Those other guys are good players, but not elite. That's what I'm trying to point out. Teams can pay too much of their Cap dollars on good players, believing they are elite, when actually those players are not elite. Buffalo, IMHAO, has done this with Eichel. He's good, but not elite. Teams need the elite guys, who they almost always draft in the top five, to win Cups. Hank and .Danny gave this franchise their best years ever, and nearly got us a Cup. They were top three picks:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Alflives said: McDavid and Draisatl are elite, yes. Those other guys are good players, but not elite. That's what I'm trying to point out. Teams can pay too much of their Cap dollars on good players, believing they are elite, when actually those players are not elite. Buffalo, IMHAO, has done this with Eichel. He's good, but not elite. Teams need the elite guys, who they almost always draft in the top five, to win Cups. Hank and .Danny gave this franchise their best years ever, and nearly got us a Cup. They were top three picks:) That blows your theory right out of the water right there doesn't it. What is it, 17 or 18 seasons now and not one cup from our "Elite" picks. I guess their in a group with Eichel in that they are not "elite" enough either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcoasting Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Alflives said: Wayne won Cups while playing for the Oilers, and (next to Orr) is the best ever. He wasn't drafted though. Wow are you really that clueless? He was playing in the WHA before he was draft eligible... do you really think he wouldn't have been the number 1 draft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe-max Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 19 hours ago, Alflives said: I don't understand:( You say that in order the win the cup the team would need one or more "elite" players (whatever that means). You claim that the probability to find these "elite" players is higher the higher you pick. The conclusion is that the team should pick as often and as high as possible. Benning has recognized this and therefore tries to assemble as many first rounders as possible knowing that (following the crooked logic of the tanking crowd) the probability that one or more of them become the golden saviour that singlehandedly carries the team to the promised land is higher than with shabby 2nd or 4th rounders. That's also the reason why he trades those away. The Canucks have got 14 first round picks on their roster (among them a 2nd overall, two 3rd overall, a 5th, two 6th and and two 8th). Of the 13 teams that I checked (including all recent cup winners) noone comes close to this number. So he does everything the tanking crowd wants, doesn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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