US Recognizes Jerusalem As Capital of Israel

[Sweathog]

6 hours ago, WHL rocks said:

No it does not. This is why i said Israelis have 600k settlers and are increasing settlements by the day. 

 

Ok my apologies, I must've misinterpreted what you said

[WHL rocks]

34 minutes ago, Sweathog said:

Ok my apologies, I must've misinterpreted what you said

no need to apologize big guy. It's a forum, even if we disagree it's not a bad thing. if we all think same thing world would be boring. 

[WHL rocks]

6 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I never felt that you were anti-Palestine. If I did, I would say it.

 

I don't think you can simplify things to the point where Palestinian children only dream of being martyrs. That's akin to saying that little Israeli children only dream of being snipers or bankers.

All those scenarios are pipe dreams, because Israel has the backing of the United States, so they will always have the upper hand.

 

It would be beautiful to think that both nations could come to a truly lasting accord, but the bad blood between the two is entrenched, in decades of bloodshed and war. However, only one of those nations is the oppressor.

The best deal could have been brokered, but now?

They couldn't reach a deal for decades. Clinton had the big push with Arafat and Rabin with the big Camp David Summit. Everyone has been trying since. 

 

This is recognising reality. Both sides have red lines and this is just getting the things that will not be on the table out of the way. Israel has it's parliament in Jerusalem the PMO is there THe PM lives there. They aren't giving it up. It's their capital city.

 

Now Palestinians will have a certain red line and Trump will recognise that as well in due time. If ever there was chance  to reach a deal it is now  under Trump Administration. THis admin. is treating this as a business deal, win win for both sides. I hope it works out for both sides. 

[PhillipBlunt]

10 hours ago, WHL rocks said:

They couldn't reach a deal for decades. Clinton had the big push with Arafat and Rabin with the big Camp David Summit. Everyone has been trying since. 

 

This is recognising reality. Both sides have red lines and this is just getting the things that will not be on the table out of the way. Israel has it's parliament in Jerusalem the PMO is there THe PM lives there. They aren't giving it up. It's their capital city.

 

Now Palestinians will have a certain red line and Trump will recognise that as well in due time. If ever there was chance  to reach a deal it is now  under Trump Administration. THis admin. is treating this as a business deal, win win for both sides. I hope it works out for both sides. 

You think ignoring United Nations sanctioned borders is an act of a good nation, you're fooling yourself. 

 

I'm not giving up ours. 

[taxi]

A lot of people forget that the UN initially designated Jerusalem an international city not owned by either side. Jordan invaded East Jerusalem in 1948 and expelled all the Jews and annexed Jerusalem. Israel gained control in 1967. 

 

Prior to 1949 the area changed hands often with many massacres of the local population. The population until migration in the late 1800s was also a extremely small, and not dominated by any specific group. It's not as simple as this group was here first. The term East Jerusalem only exists because Jordan invaded it and forcibly removed the Jewish population, including the population of the old city, which had been there a long time.

[RUPERTKBD]

12 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

Trump is a superficial thinker at best.  This is why he let's his son in law further this own Zionist agenda.  Trump doesn't understand what may happen, nor has he thought about how stakeholders may react.

 

Without moralizing on the situation in the Middle East, everyone knows that the place is volatile to say the least.  Now, let's upset the status quo and see what happens.  That is the 2 state solution which the United Nations says is the only solution (and there is no plan B )

 

This has the potential to start a major sh!t storm from war in the region to an increase in world wide terrorism.  Saudi Arabia and others may just cut off their oil supply to the United States.   This is only the beginning.

 

Now, many members of the United Nations are meeting to decide what to do about this.  As usual, right thinking people (and Nations) will have to pick up the pieces.  If they can.

 

Additionally, some parties consider that this decision rules out the United States as a mediator in the conflict.  I sincerely hope this is all.

Well said. Mirrors my thinking as well.

 

When you get past arguing about how long these people have been there, versus how long other people have been there and who say what 60 years ago, or 10 years ago, it comes down to destabilization. Trump is doing that in his usual ham-fisted manner, because he truly believes that he's smarter than all the experts around him and that his "deal making" ability is guaranteed to make everything better than it was before he got ahold of it.

 

10 hours ago, Brad Marchand said:

I'm actually kind of surprised you didn't recognize The Beaverton. Then again, I'm not exactly sure how well known that show is around here.

I watch it occasionally. (Usually when I'm waiting for Full Frontal to come on) Besides, I've always had a bit of a thing for Emma Hunter....

[Crabcakes]

1 minute ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Well said. Mirrors my thinking as well.

 

When you get past arguing about how long these people have been there, versus how long other people have been there and who say what 60 years ago, or 10 years ago, it comes down to destabilization. Trump is doing that in his usual ham-fisted manner, because he truly believes that he's smarter than all the experts around him and that his "deal making" ability is guaranteed to make everything better than it was before he got ahold of it.

 

I watch it occasionally. (Usually when I'm waiting for Full Frontal to come on) Besides, I've always had a bit of a thing for Emma Hunter....

Clinton and Bush (HW) made election promises to recognize Jerusalem as the Israeli capitol.  However, when they studied the issues more carefully, and had the benefit of council from the State Department etc, they both decided that it was a bad idea. 

 

Trump, on the other hand, claims that what they have done to date isn't working, so he wants to try something else.  But he's just rolling the dice here.  He has no idea how things will fall out.

 

Of course Trump has gutted the State Department and is relying on the opinion of his rather young and conservative son in law Jared Kushner.   

[nucklehead]

18 hours ago, The Sedge said:

Until people stop resorting to using party affiliations as a basis for argument, nothing is ever going to get better in the world.  There are far more ways to approach a problem than the ones proposed by, say the liberals/conservatives, or the democrats/republicans.  Get this, it's even possible to share ideals/beliefs from both sides of the political spectrum!  Who would have thought!? 

Most of us not that long ago. Identity politics has destroyed cooperation across party lines. We've been played by the power brokers that know that to divide is to  conquer and they're taking it to the nth degree. 

[Kragar]

2 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

Clinton and Bush (HW) made election promises to recognize Jerusalem as the Israeli capitol.  However, when they studied the issues more carefully, and had the benefit of council from the State Department etc, they both decided that it was a bad idea. 

 

Trump, on the other hand, claims that what they have done to date isn't working, so he wants to try something else.  But he's just rolling the dice here.  He has no idea how things will fall out.

 

Of course Trump has gutted the State Department and is relying on the opinion of his rather young and conservative son in law Jared Kushner.   

Further to the election promises, Congress voted overwhelmingly (so, strong bi-partisan support) in 1995 to recognize Jerusalem as the capital, but Presidents have kicked the can down the road delaying signing the bill.  Trump even punted once (it has to be decided every 6 months), but apparently he's made his decision.

 

I agree with the dice roll comment, but realistically, I don't see it being a big impact.  Russia already recognizes West Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

 

I'm curious how there can be peace there.  When the majority of people in Israel's neighboring countries deny the Holocaust even today (ok, this decade), and neither Israel or Palestine is willing to recognize the other's right to exist, it's gonna take something big (hopefully not disastrous) to turn this around.

[WHL rocks]

13 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

You think ignoring United Nations sanctioned borders is an act of a good nation, you're fooling yourself. 

 

I'm not giving up ours. 

If you think Israel is moving it's Supreme Court, It's PM residence, it's Parliament out of Jerusalem and hand of the city to Palestinians it's you who is fooling himself my friend. 

 

UN has no backbone They can't do anything, it's merely a tool of the 5 veto powers to run the world according to their own interests. 

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, WHL rocks said:

If you think Israel is moving it's Supreme Court, It's PM residence, it's Parliament out of Jerusalem and hand of the city to Palestinians it's you who is fooling himself my friend. 

 

UN has no backbone They can't do anything, it's merely a tool of the 5 veto powers to run the world according to their own interests. 

Do you willingly make this dialogue up in your mind? Where you're getting the idea that Israel has to leave Jerusalem is beyond me, but I have never said that. Stay with the statements at hand.

 

There was an idea that Jerusalem would be split into east and west portions, with Israel having the west, and Palestine the east. Sharing the "holy" city would go along way towards peace.

 

 

[WHL rocks]

Israel is not going to split Jerusalem and give half to Palestine. Are you not getting this reality or are you just choosing  not to believe it.

 

You are in denial if you think Jerusalem was ever or will ever be divided and Israel would allow it to be divided. 

 

I've said many times in this thread there are 600 thousand settlers in Paletinian territories. That's not even Jerusalem  that's Palestine.. And Israel won't even leave those occupied lands. 

[taxi]

50 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Do you willingly make this dialogue up in your mind? Where you're getting the idea that Israel has to leave Jerusalem is beyond me, but I have never said that. Stay with the statements at hand.

 

There was an idea that Jerusalem would be split into east and west portions, with Israel having the west, and Palestine the east. Sharing the "holy" city would go along way towards peace, however Israel isn't really a nation that fancies sharing anything, outside of derision, with Palestine.

 

Couple that with having the US as a backer, and it's clear that Israel never intended to broker a peace deal with Palestine, especially with the likes of Netanyahu in power. I wonder how well Israel would have fared if it didn't have the US as a sugar daddy?

Israel offered East Jerusalem to the Palestinians at the Tabs summit in 2001.

[taxi]

6 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

Israel is not going to split Jerusalem and give half to Palestine. Are you not getting this reality or are you just choosing  not to believe it.

 

You are in denial if you think Jerusalem was ever or will ever be divided and Israel would allow it to be divided. 

 

I've said many times in this thread there are 600 thousand settlers in Paletinian territories. That's not even Jerusalem  that's Palestine.. And Israel won't even leave those occupied lands. 

Israel has offered the Palestinians control over the Arab neighbourhoods in Jerusalem multiple times. 

[PhillipBlunt]

1 minute ago, taxi said:

Israel offered East Jerusalem to the Palestinians at the Tabs summit in 2001.

Thank you for clarification, taxi.

[WHL rocks]

2001 is not 2017

 

Israel had 350k settlers in occupied territories then, they now have almost double that. 

 

It was a different world 2 decades ago. You're talking before 911 and before the war against terror. 

 

Israel holds all the cards now. 

[taxi]

3 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Thank you for clarification, taxi.

To further clarify, there have always been disagreements about exact borders, but to say that Israel has never offered a part of Jerusalem is false.

[WHL rocks]

Edit

 

I'm just saying Israel calls Jerusalem its eternal , undivided capital. They will not let Jerusalem be divided. THey will give access to Al Aqsa but not give up control. 

 

 Lets see how the situation unfolds and hopefully there is peace soon and a deal is reached where all sides are happy. 

 

 

[PhillipBlunt]

9 minutes ago, taxi said:

To further clarify, there have always been disagreements about exact borders, but to say that Israel has never offered a part of Jerusalem is false.

Fair enough. I have edited the post, to reflect this information.

[taxi]

5 hours ago, WHL rocks said:

Edit

 

I'm just saying Israel calls Jerusalem its eternal , undivided capital. They will not let Jerusalem be divided. THey will give access to Al Aqsa but not give up control. 

 

 Lets see how the situation unfolds and hopefully there is peace soon and a deal is reached where all sides are happy. 

 

 

There are many Palestinian groups who see Palestine as including all of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. There are people on both sides with viewpoints that are likely to result in ongoing conflict.