[PGT] Anaheim Ducks vs. Vancouver Canucks

[Rob_Zepp]

20 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I am lazy, why didn't Virtanen play? Especially against a bigger team?

 

A healthy scratch? I wonder if he is having those "off ice" issues.

If you mean being intimate with his toilet due to the flu, you are correct.   That is what you meant.....right?

[smithers joe]

i still haven't seen who cdc gm's plan on filling our roster with, after all these guys are moved or bought out? come on gm's.

[smithers joe]

i have no expectations for this team, except they play the best they can for the remainder of the season. i don't see us winning a lot of games but the try has got to be there. on with the rebuild. 

[Rob_Zepp]

2 minutes ago, smithers joe said:

i still haven't seen who cdc gm's plan on filling our roster with, after all these guys are moved or bought out? come on gm's.

Exactly.   Joe - too many want change to win now but also say they are in it for the rebuild.   THIS is what a rebuild looks like.   You will have some players that will not be part of the finished product, some contracts that didn't work out as planned, some nuggets that come out of the closet but mainly you will have the development of your prospects so that at least four or five of the key pieces moving forward are home-grown talent that is augmented through trade/UFA etc.    

 

Given the CAP space this team will have after this season, the likely strong draft position and the really almost unprecedented (for this franchise) prospect development progress that has occurred over the past year - all indications are sunnier times are closer than they are further away.

[TheGuardian_]

8 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

 This is what a rebuild looks like. 

This not what a rebuild looks like. Only one rookie playing. No trades for substantial roster players. 5+ AHL players on the roster. No future "plan" evident, like how many "prospects"/rookies play next year and who are their mentors? Terrible cap management. Three years of finishing in the bottom 3 and no prospects playing, okay maybe one out of 21.

This is a team trying to make the playoffs and is handcuffed by contracts signed by them, bad player evaluations.

 

Players on this 25th placed team would not make many other teams, after many years I am starting to believe that they are tanking on purpose.

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

This not what a rebuild looks like. Only one rookie playing. No trades for substantial roster players. 5+ AHL players on the roster. No future "plan" evident, like how many "prospects"/rookies play next year and who are their mentors? Terrible cap management. Three years of finishing in the bottom 3 and no prospects playing, okay maybe one out of 21.

This is a team trying to make the playoffs and is handcuffed by contracts signed by them, bad player evaluations.

 

Players on this 25th placed team would not make many other teams, after many years I am starting to believe that they are tanking on purpose.

So willfully obtuse.

[Odjick_fan]

5 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

This not what a rebuild looks like. Only one rookie playing. No trades for substantial roster players. 5+ AHL players on the roster. No future "plan" evident, like how many "prospects"/rookies play next year and who are their mentors? Terrible cap management. Three years of finishing in the bottom 3 and no prospects playing, okay maybe one out of 21.

This is a team trying to make the playoffs and is handcuffed by contracts signed by them, bad player evaluations.

 

Players on this 25th placed team would not make many other teams, after many years I am starting to believe that they are tanking on purpose.

[Jester13]

11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

There is no elephant in the room.   This is what a rebuild looks like.   EVERY position is under scrutiny and what the Canucks are seeing is they seem to have two goalies that are not ready to be a number one and given their ages, they may never be.   To that end, it may change their development schedule for their goalie prospect line (in this case, really only one near-term option) but it isn't a fatal flaw to identify what you need.    However, to be fair even Carey Price would struggle behind the mix/match of team that the Canucks have put in front of them the past 6 weeks or so.   It is not an excuse, it is a reality.   The quality of chances are very high and believe it or not, that is when you make a bunch of spectacular saves but let "easy" ones in as you get mentally fatigued.   It shouldn't happen but does.    

 

I think keeping Miller here (or similar proven starter) would not have allowed the evaluation that has happened so as painful as it can be, and last few games have been very painful, it is part of the process.   IF they have their team where it appears it might be 18-24 months from now and there are similar concerns in the net...THAT would be not only an elephant, it would be a an entire herd of them.

My point - admittedly not clearly stated - is that many on CDC are pointing out all these other reasons why we're not doing well (e.g. Green, Sedins, Vanek, etc.), when really it's our goaltending that has let us down all year - well, injuries as well, of course, make all the difference, but even when healthy we've lost many games due to our tenders. 

 

And I completely agree that this is part of the process. I'm not upset that we're losing - in fact, I'm fine with it because it will mean another good player in the draft, and the games have still been entertaining. I just get tired of people putting undue blame on players and coaches. I mean, one poster recently blamed Green for starting Nilsson last night. 

[Rob_Zepp]

2 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

This not what a rebuild looks like. Only one rookie playing. No trades for substantial roster players. 5+ AHL players on the roster. No future "plan" evident, like how many "prospects"/rookies play next year and who are their mentors? Terrible cap management. Three years of finishing in the bottom 3 and no prospects playing, okay maybe one out of 21.

This is a team trying to make the playoffs and is handcuffed by contracts signed by them, bad player evaluations.

 

Players on this 25th placed team would not make many other teams, after many years I am starting to believe that they are tanking on purpose.

Will, once again, agree to disagree with you on almost every level of what you say here.   That lineup last evening had several young players in it (if you consider players like Stecher, Goldy, Boeser, Gaunce, DP and even Hutton as "veterans" then we have different dictionaries).   The team is vastly different from two years ago and the pipeline MUCH different.   

 

Of course the players want to make the playoffs - if any team in the NHL is not trying to make the playoffs, what the hell are they doing playing?   However, as many of us said all summer and all throughout their decent start, THIS IS NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM.   However, you cannot ask professional athletes/coaches to purposely play poorly so they can be replaced by better players/coaches.   That is insane.   They will try the best they can to succeed but reality will bite.   The injuries have been crippling given their razor thin NHL ready depth.   However, injuries happen and it was a great reminder to any fans who thought the rebuild was magically over before it really got going.

 

Yes, Guardian, this is what a rebuild looks like.  No, they haven't had a first overall pick or even four or five of them (that has clearly propelled Edmonton to the top of the league) that you seem to think they can magically arrange.   Even Toronto has taken a pretty big step back this year.   The challenge of doing a rebuild is to do it the way that makes the most sense for the talent you have in the pipeline and the assets you have currently at your disposal.   That is the error made in Edmonton - assuming that continually finishing at/near bottom like Chicago did would lead to instant cups.  Canucks seems smarter than that but time will tell - time that involves patience.   Patience that many here seem to lack.    

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

The Elephant in the room is goaltending. Anyone who has ever played on a team with a goalie (or goalies) who let in softies all the time - and early - know how deflating it is to a team. And everyone should know how hard it is to come back all the time in the NHL.

Not to say the goalies have been great or that (especially that 1st goal last night) Nillson played well but I think the Elephant in the room is: a bunch of key injuries to what was already a mediocre team.

 

Our top 2 (and top defensive and faceoff) C's out.

 

Key match up player Dorsett forced to retire.

 

Two of our best defensive D's have until recently been out.

 

Two of our top offensive players (Horvat and Baer) are out also leading to less offensive and hence more defensive pressure.

 

A top half of the league team would struggle with that injury list. They valiantly attempted to keep their heads above water but you can see the toll that guys playing above their heads, guys trying to come back from injury etc are having on the team. They rightfully look exhausted and our play in our own zone has understandably been spotty to put it kindly. Expecting the goaltenders to look anything resembling good in that scenario is not being realistic IMO.

 

 

[ilduce39]

10 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Not to say the goalies have been great or that (especially that 1st goal last night) Nillson played well but I think the Elephant in the room is: a bunch of key injuries to what was already a mediocre team.

 

Our top 2 (and top defensive and faceoff) C's out.

 

Key match up player Dorsett forced to retire.

 

Two of our best defensive D's have until recently been out.

 

Two of our top offensive players (Horvat and Baer) are out also leading to less offensive and hence more defensive pressure.

 

A top half of the league team would struggle with that injury list. They valiantly attempted to keep their heads above water but you can see the toll that guys playing above their heads, guys trying to come back from injury etc are having on the team. They rightfully look exhausted and our play in our own zone has understandably been spotty to put it kindly. Expecting the goaltenders to look anything resembling good in that scenario is not being realistic IMO.

 

 

Yeah, that’s for sure.  The injuries have taken a toll on the entire lineup.  Like the rest of the team, Marky and Anders looked good to start the year with a (relatively) healthy squad.  Easy to pine for Melansen and Miller (I’ve done it) but hopefully when we’re back to relatively full strength the goalies pick it up as well.  

 

Probably a lot easier to play knowing you’ll get better d and some run support.

[smithers joe]

36 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

This not what a rebuild looks like. Only one rookie playing. No trades for substantial roster players. 5+ AHL players on the roster. No future "plan" evident, like how many "prospects"/rookies play next year and who are their mentors? Terrible cap management. Three years of finishing in the bottom 3 and no prospects playing, okay maybe one out of 21.

This is a team trying to make the playoffs and is handcuffed by contracts signed by them, bad player evaluations.

 

Players on this 25th placed team would not make many other teams, after many years I am starting to believe that they are tanking on purpose.

ericksson was brought in, i think because of his play with the sedins in international play. payed to much but it is done. the team couldn't score and was weak on their power play. that is why vanek and gagner were brought in. del zotto was brought in to strengthen the defense. it hasn't worked out this way, but it is done. goldobin was brought in because of his expected talent. that hasn't work out eaither. it was hoped that virtanen would put it altogether this year. that hasn't worked yet. elder has refused to drop his ntc and won't move. he has said though that if the team doesn't want him he would go. despite his short comings, the guy is a horse for playing time. until he is replaced with another horse (?), he will be here. sutter has been our best defensive forward. granlund has been good defensive player. 

if you count the next core, horvat, boeser, maybe baertschi, pouliot, maybe jake, tanev, maybe gudbranson and stecher, maybe gaunce and goldobin, maybe granlund and sutter, maybe 8 forward, 4 d-men, who fills in the rest of the line up till the young guys are ready to play?

we're we suppose to have pettersson, dahlen, gaudette, lind, gadjovich and juolevi make the line up, this year? ask edmonton how that works out. 

maybe this not the way some poster want it to go but the benning plan will bear fruit in a couple of years. there is no instant gratification here.

 

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Yeah, that’s for sure.  The injuries have taken a toll on the entire lineup.  Like the rest of the team, Marky and Anders looked good to start the year with a (relatively) healthy squad.  Easy to pine for Melansen and Miller (I’ve done it) but hopefully when we’re back to relatively full strength the goalies pick it up as well.  

 

Probably a lot easier to play knowing you’ll get better d and some run support.

And I'm not saying we have two Vezina candidates back there. At best I think you can say Marky is probably a good '1B' and Nilsson a solid '2A' or maybe inconsistent '1B' with a half decent/healthy team in front of them. Right now we don't have that.

[ilduce39]

3 minutes ago, aGENT said:

And I'm not saying we have two Vezina candidates back there. At best I think you can say Marky is probably a good '1B' and Nilsson a solid '2A' or maybe inconsistent '1B' with a half decent/healthy team in front of them. Right now we don't have that.

Yeah, for sure.  I also think Nilsson is a big, positionally-reliant goalie so he’s going to struggle hard with how rag tag our current defensive effort is.  

 

I know Marky hasn’t looked great either but I think he’s the better bet as he’s more athletic/dynamic in net.

[Jayinblack]

31 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

My point - admittedly not clearly stated - is that many on CDC are pointing out all these other reasons why we're not doing well (e.g. Green, Sedins, Vanek, etc.), when really it's our goaltending that has let us down all year - well, injuries as well, of course, make all the difference, but even when healthy we've lost many games due to our tenders. 

 

And I completely agree that this is part of the process. I'm not upset that we're losing - in fact, I'm fine with it because it will mean another good player in the draft, and the games have still been entertaining. I just get tired of people putting undue blame on players and coaches. I mean, one poster recently blamed Green for starting Nilsson last night. 

a) Our goaltending was the main reason for our great start.

b) Our vets have had too many sub-par effots this year.  Edler and Eriksson can't leave fast enough IMO. 

[TheGuardian_]

27 minutes ago, smithers joe said:

ericksson was brought in, i think because of his play with the sedins in international play. payed to much but it is done. the team couldn't score and was weak on their power play. that is why vanek and gagner were brought in. del zotto was brought in to strengthen the defense. it hasn't worked out this way, but it is done. goldobin was brought in because of his expected talent. that hasn't work out eaither. it was hoped that virtanen would put it altogether this year. that hasn't worked yet. elder has refused to drop his ntc and won't move. he has said though that if the team doesn't want him he would go. despite his short comings, the guy is a horse for playing time. until he is replaced with another horse (?), he will be here. sutter has been our best defensive forward. granlund has been good defensive player. 

if you count the next core, horvat, boeser, maybe baertschi, pouliot, maybe jake, tanev, maybe gudbranson and stecher, maybe gaunce and goldobin, maybe granlund and sutter, maybe 8 forward, 4 d-men, who fills in the rest of the line up till the young guys are ready to play?

we're we suppose to have petters son, dahlen, gaudette, lind, gadjovich and juolevi make the line up, this year? ask edmonton how that works out. 

maybe this not the way some poster want it to go but the benning plan will bear fruit in a couple of years. there is no instant gratification here.

 

You make just about every point, they are totally unprepared for the prospects to come up and have "team" mentors. If the Sedins go then there is only Edler and Tanev with 5 or more years of dedication to this team. The rest of the veterans are just filling in and veterans like them can be signed any year, as that is what is done now.

 

Each year this team will need more prospects, more high end prospects to break into the league.

 

Demko gets the team by default  but deservedly

OJ makes the team by default - the d is getting so bad.

Virtanen get a 1rst or 2nd line position because there is no one else. IMO I think he could be if given a chance.

Just about all the prospects make the team because they should be better than at least 6 of the current players, if they aren't then add another 2+ years looking for that talent level.

 

The NHL talent/consistency level is so low now half the AHL could be starters on this team. Just look how good the 38 yr old Sedins look out there offensively even when not scoring. Big trouble coming.

[TheGuardian_]

35 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Will, once again, agree to disagree with you on almost every level of what you say here.   That lineup last evening had several young players in it (if you consider players like Stecher, Goldy, Boeser, Gaunce, DP and even Hutton as "veterans" then we have different dictionaries).   The team is vastly different from two years ago and the pipeline MUCH different.

I have posted for years now that "young" does not mean "good".

After seeing so many years of a 26th place team fans get desperate and see skill that is not there.

Look at the players Benning did bring in, the NHL failures from other teams.

Defending Benning becomes like saying all those other GM's, of winning teams, don't know what they are doing.

Blaming the previous GM for taking the team to the cup final 7 years ago is grasping for excuses for this current groups failures.

 

If some posters continue to believe that after 4 failing years Benning deserves more time, then why were the fans not willing to accept Gillis be given more than one season to do the same thing?

 

The level is so low now most of the "pipeline" should make the team, they only have to better than the AHLer's on the team now.

 

Two years ago the team finished 26th, this year likely the same or close and the pipeline contributed to ???? Too many are in denial.

[aGENT]

6 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Look at the players Benning did bring in, the NHL failures from other teams.

One, that's not true. Two, you have a fundamental misunderstanding as to why those players were brought in. 

 

They're largely, literally, filler. As I've noted to you (many times now) drafted players generally take 2-4 years to develop and make an NHL roster. Benning has largely signed players to fill that gap and simply ice an NHL team until kids arrive. 

[TheGuardian_]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

One, that's not true. Two, you have a fundamental misunderstanding as to why those players were brought in. 

 

They're largely, literally, filler. As I've noted to you (many times now) drafted players generally take 2-4 years to develop and make an NHL roster. Benning has largely signed players to fill that gap and simply ice an NHL team until kids arrive. 

While you may understand the distinction, I post to those that go crazy thinking these moves are the result of genius and desperation.

 

Linden himself has stated they would not do a rebuild here until the Sedin's are gone AND he also stated he would use the word rebuild to please the fans but they were no doing anything different. He also said the Sedins would play here as long as they wanted, so based upon Eriksson's contract I make that to be a 2 year contract.

 

And you are not wrong MOST prospects will need 2 to 4 years to develop and the scary part of that is that this team hasn't started developing anyone in the pipeline. How many in the pipeline are in the AHL, the team's development farm team? None!

 

Look at the players he signed and look at the one's he let go for nothing and then replaced with "younger" (sometimes by a couple of years) one's of lesser calibre. That age group they so desperately had to remove, well those that replaced them are now in that age group or close to it, so being of lesser calibre are they now "released"?

 

I am kind of addressing a couple of other posts as well here.

[Rob_Zepp]

14 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I have posted for years now that "young" does not mean "good".

After seeing so many years of a 26th place team fans get desperate and see skill that is not there.

Look at the players Benning did bring in, the NHL failures from other teams.

Defending Benning becomes like saying all those other GM's, of winning teams, don't know what they are doing.

Blaming the previous GM for taking the team to the cup final 7 years ago is grasping for excuses for this current groups failures.

 

If some posters continue to believe that after 4 failing years Benning deserves more time, then why were the fans not willing to accept Gillis be given more than one season to do the same thing?

 

The level is so low now most of the "pipeline" should make the team, they only have to better than the AHLer's on the team now.

 

Two years ago the team finished 26th, this year likely the same or close and the pipeline contributed to ???? Too many are in denial.

Who is defending anyone?!   You keep saying that and it is really annoying to be brutally honest with you.   The fact your team was at near top of the league for nearly a decade and the last management team cleaned the cupboards from prospects (plus many, many years of what picks you had, they were very late in each round) leads to an inevitable spell at/near the bottom of the pack while you retool.  That is what is happening now.   There are not "many years" - many yeas is the ten plus years in exile that Toronto, Chicago and Edmonton (for but three) went through.   Canucks showed signs earlier this year that even now, this early in the process, that when healthy they are edging closer to being on the upswing.   

 

No one is blaming anyone and no one is defending anyone.   People are stating facts and you seem to only have one track - blow it all up and fire Benning.   Your level of patience is thin, I get that, you seemingly are an older guy and have put all kinds of pressure on this present management team to make up for your past disappointments but man, is that remotely fair?   Edmonton with more first round picks than you have fingers on your hand are hand-in-hand with the Canucks in the standings WHILE HEALTHY - wow, great rebuild.   Toronto has stepped backwards.   Chicago looks poised for freefall.  Arizona - well, that is too easy a target.   

 

Atlanta/Winnipeg is a good model.   That has taken about six-seven full years from the start of some smart moves.    They didn't have "most their pipeline" put in too early.   They did it the right way.   

 

No one is in denial.   You seem to have some form of need to have people agree with you that this current management team is purposely bad and needs to win a cup this year or else they need to play all rookies sort of thing.   That is both not going to happen and no other team has EVER done that.