Team's lack of confidence directly tied to loss of leadership from Horvat

[goalie13]

23 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

Yeah that makes sense. I guess one more year with them would not hurt in the grand scheme of things, but, at a drastic reduced rate like Apollo suggested in the 1-2 million range and no more then that.

I don't think the rate even matters, for next year anyways.  You could sign them for $4M - $5M per Sedin and it won't impede JB from re-signing Boeser the following year.  As long as JB can re-sign all his RFAs to reasonable deals (Baertschi, Granlund, Virtanen, Stecher & Pouliot) I think we are in good shape for the future.

[Dekey Pete]

This isn't even the same team that Benning had put together at the beginning of the season.  

 

Dorsett was playing like he was gunning for the Art Ross before he went down.  And even though we all know he wouldn't have won it, he was bound to have a career or near career season.

 

Sutter is a lot more important to this team that people give him credit for.  Now that he was in the defensive role he should be he was playing very effectively till he went down. 

Bo is extremely important to the team for obvious reasons. 

 

Bearstchi was putting up great numbers until he went down with an injury.

 

Edler, Tanev and Stetcher have all spent considerable time out of the lineup.  Also Gudbranson

 

Burmistrov left the team, forcing us to sign Dowd for depth.

 

Not sure what curse the Canucks are carrying this year, but that volume of injuries is almost unbelievable.  On the bright side, you can certainly see the foundation of this team coming together.  With the added skill of Petterson coming in soon, amongst others, plus another high 1st draft pick you can see the light at the end of the tunnel for this team.  We might even be a playoff team again next year or the year after, and at the very least it will be entertaining hockey to watch.

[EdgarM]

2 minutes ago, smithers joe said:

i agree, it is not a lack of leadership but a lack of talent that has us losing most games. other than the sedins and boeser, they is little top end talent. even with everyone back they are lacking. they showed that with maximun push and lights out goaltending that they can win some games. we are still 2 years away from our new core taking over. tough times till then.

I would agree but when the team is sucking from the goalies all the way to the forwards I would think there is something else going on. Even with Guddy returning, Tanev for a short period and Baertchi, we still don't look any better. We were playing much better as one unit/team prior to Bo being out. We will see when he returns how the team plays to get a definitive answer I guess.

[189lb enforcers?]

People are taking that thread title seriously?

ouch 

[-AJ-]

1 hour ago, Tre Mac said:

Eh not that simple.  If Horvat was the only player injured then yes but don't underestimate the loss of both Sutter and Tanev during those games.  Maybe someone can post the Canuck record when Tanev is out these past two seasons?  I think Tanev is the unsung hero of this team.   

 

1 hour ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

It does speak for itself on the surface but still not the entire picture. Horvat, and the decimation of our top line and 1D to injuries contribute big time. Those injuries put more pressure on Markstrom/Nilsson, too. 

 

But I agree, Horvat is the clear leader of the team similar to Linden's leadership. 

 

I also believe all of these injuries has forced Boeser to raise his game even higher and shoulder more responsibility than he would have with a healthy team. As a result of his play, and carrying the team through injuries, Boeser emerges as a leader in his rookie season. Right now Boeser is a leader beyond his years as a result of injuries.

 

So, Horvat's injury actually has a silver lining that will pay off down the road through a much more mature Boeser.

 

 

You two are right, and I was thinking about that when made my post. Those changes are inflated by injuries to Sutter, Baertschi, and Tanev that happened all around that same time, so it's probably not as extreme as it looks, but it would still probably be somewhat similar.

 

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Careful apollo, some posters get pretty ornery when you suggest offering the Sedins $1-2M a year. I think it makes perfect sense though.

Heheh, I see you there @PhillipBlunt

 

I'm fine with the twins being signed to that kind of deal, but I think they play well enough to merit more. That's not to say I wouldn't be thrilled if they signed for that cheap though. It would be one final selfless move, just like how Burrows went out.

[darkpoet]

2 hours ago, IbanezRG said:

Bo will you marry me.

I now pronounce you Bobanez 

you may kiss yourself 

[Dr. Crossbar]

Interesting. This could be a gateway thread, Buzzsaw. It is worth exploring this team's lack of confidence as a culture, too! 

[Toni Zamboni]

Bo Canucks Bo!

[samurai]

the OP is an example of assigning one variable to account for all the issues.

 

Other important issues:

The team hasn't been good for a few years

We lost Horvat plus Sutter, Sven, Dorsett.  

No legit starting goalie from this year (last year we had a stellar Miller who carried the team)

Bottom guys cannot score Gaunce, Dowd, Chaput

Granlund has taken a step back and now looks bottom 6

Eric is as bad as last year, maybe even worse -

The Sedins are a year older and have become even more predictable

Our D is not good and we lost Nikita

injuries.

Utica call ups like Boucher and Goldy are not having any impact.  

 

And of course the big big big issue was the crap drafting under Gillis, and Nonis. 

 

I like many people thought the nucks would be kind of where they are right now.  Next year a little better perhaps but we will still be a non playoff team.  Completely fine with this as long as their is good nHL youth coming in.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[elvis15]

Don't overcomplicate it. His leadership is definitely a factor, but you don't need to write a multiple paragraph dissertation on his leaderships skills when your top line, 200ft center trusted with top faceoffs and points leader last year is out of the lineup for an extended period. That's going to hurt you multiple ways.

[rekker]

7 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

Don't overcomplicate it. His leadership is definitely a factor, but you don't need to write a multiple paragraph dissertation on his leaderships skills when your top line, 200ft center trusted with top faceoffs and points leader last year is out of the lineup for an extended period. That's going to hurt you multiple ways.

Yip. It's a combo of lots of things. One of the biggest being the loss of Bo for sure.  Love that kid. 

[elvis15]

1 hour ago, samurai said:

the OP is an example of assigning one variable to account for all the issues.

 

Other important issues:

The team hasn't been good for a few years

We lost Horvat plus Sutter, Sven, Dorsett.  

No legit starting goalie from this year (last year we had a stellar Miller who carried the team)

Bottom guys cannot score Gaunce, Dowd, Chaput

Granlund has taken a step back and now looks bottom 6

Eric is as bad as last year, maybe even worse -

The Sedins are a year older and have become even more predictable

Our D is not good and we lost Nikita

injuries.

Utica call ups like Boucher and Goldy are not having any impact.  

 

And of course the big big big issue was the crap drafting under Gillis, and Nonis. 

 

I like many people thought the nucks would be kind of where they are right now.  Next year a little better perhaps but we will still be a non playoff team.  Completely fine with this as long as their is good nHL youth coming in.

Oh yeah, that stuff too. But sure, it's all because his leadership is so good they should rename the Mark Messier award after Horvat.

 

Too far? Nah.

[TonyStrecher]

7 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Since Horvat went down the team has gradually started to lose its swagger and sense of confidence.

 

At the beginning of the season the team believed it could win any game... and the players believed they could come back from a deficit.

 

But that is now eroding fast.

 

From my perspective you can tie that loss to Horvat's absence.  He was, and is, the real leader of the team.  Over the last two years he has quietly taken charge of the Canucks and made it his team... showing by example and by effort game in and game out, providing the inspiration for the rest of the team.

 

Maybe he doesn't wear the 'C' or an 'A', but he shows leadership every time he is on the ice... both in his demeanor and in his play.

 

Horvat is the complete package... he can score, he can be physical, he can be a playmaker, he can control the faceoff dot and he can be a shutdown forward.  Sometimes it is easy to overlook how effective he is because he just gets down to business every shift.  But he also has the ability to single handedly pick up the team on his back and lift them... with his end to end rushes.  It is the threat of him taking the puck end to end is which makes the rest of his linemates more effective... the opposing team has to respect his rush and that means more room and time for the others on his line.  He forces the opposing team to key on on him and his line and that opens the game for the rest of the Canucks.

 

By drawing the focus of the other team's best players, he gives the Sedins and the rest of the team the kinds of line matchups which they can take advantage of.  It is no surprise Eriksson and the Sedins were thriving when Bo's line was intact... now Eriksson has disappeared... the Sedins are still scoring, but that is because they are getting #1 minutes, and they can no longer be a #1 line.

 

Boeser has continued to play well, but he is feeling the pressure and the focus of the other team's checkers... he would have a lot more room if Bo was wheeling on his line... not to mention he'd be getting a lot more pucks on his stick as a result of faceoff wins.

 

It's gonna be another process to rebuild the confidence of this team again after Bo returns... it probably won't happen right away.  For one, its an ankle injury, Bo's skating will be affected, and he will take time to get up to speed.

 

But I believe we will see the change in direction start to happen when Bo comes back.

 

If there is one thing which I draw from the season... it's that the MVP of the team is Horvat.  Yes, Boeser is getting better and he will be great... but all the dimensions which Horvat brings to the game makes him a special player for the Canucks.

 

 

 

I definitely agree with this. Bo was constantly the hardest working player on the ice for the Canucks especially when they were down in games and really needed a spark. Even if the Sedins are resigned, I think it would be ridiculous not to name him captain next year.

 

The losses of Sutter and Dorsett should not be underestimated either. Both were not only key guys in the room, but played very tough match-ups against the other teams top players and on the PK.

[xereau]

I can't wait until the Sedin's and their no back check, perimeter play style of on ice 'leadership' is looooooonnng gone.  The impossible between 16 legs no look against the flow of play passes too.  And the endless new age robot like delivered sports cliches in media scrums.

[Hairy Kneel]

8 hours ago, EdgarM said:

This is why this should be the Sedins last year. Love these guys but the next step has to be taken for the team to advance to the next level. There are a number of teams who have committed their Cap space to their big name players and the money can only go around to so many players. I am sure a player will come available within the next two-three years which will be an impact player in which his team will no longer be able to afford him. I am sure teams like Chicago will develop some real good youngsters who they cannot afford because their big boys are taking the lions share of the cap space. I am sure 14 million will go a long way in signing an impact player and also paying up for Boeser which is coming very soon too. 

Another thing to note is that we survived all of the previous injuries this year and it wasn't until Bo went down that the team suddenly looked like a very different team. 

I'm sure the twins can go have fun and play a couple years in the SHL. Close to family and old home towns.

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

7 hours ago, MJDDawg said:

I've always thought that Bo would be the next captain.  But there's something about the Flow that screams "captain".

 

 The way he speaks, the way teammates speak about him. His professionalism. The way he has that "been there done that" professionalism on the ice. The way he handles pressure. The way he stared down the best goalie on the planet...and won...while making it look like just another day at the office.

 

He has everything Bo has...with one important difference.  He can score. And while that isn't the be all end all when picking a captain, it's  how he can get the team excited when he does stuff that as a 20-year old can't normally do.

 

I'm not picking him over Bo necessarily, but I could see The Flow being an option for captain.

 

 

 Bo and the Flow can provide the leadership together moving forward whether one wears the C and the other wears the A. 

[blackpluto96]

8 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Bo is really good no doubt about it, but he is not the saviour. While his not being there hurts the team in oh so many ways, it is a team game. An injury to any one player should not have this kind of reaction, or even two players. But that is more a skill and depth issue.

By having the media push this idea, that his injury caused this decent will put immense pressure on him when he returns and have fans worked up if there is no improvement.

If he is lucky his return date will coincide with the week off and the players rejuvenate themselves and come out fresh again.

 

The media are all certain that the Sedins are coming back next year, I hope they do as the team is not ready for the void their retirement will cause BUT, that said, to me their next year is like the prospects that aren't signed or in the AHL or on the team, it is just an idea/guess/hope until word is out that it is a done deal. Would they come back for that big a discount though, they will still be 40 to 60 point players and that point level is paying 5 mil a season. 

 

My opinion/guess is that they will re-sign for 2 years taking them to 2020. Eriksson's contract can be bought out then or maybe even traded as it will be 90% paid off or better if there is another lockout.

 

8 hours ago, apollo said:

Honestly I'd be shocked if they ask for more. We could add bonuses if they chose 1 mill to possibly even make it 2.5 million each? 

 

It's not about the money... they have money.

It's not about the respect... they have more respect earned than anyone. 

It's only about them coming out and publicly saying they'll end their careers here and only want to win here. If they truly want that, a hometown discount on an extension is a no brainer. Gives the team the cap space to build around them and hopefully win the cup in 2018/2019 

 

Jim needs to let me have a talk with them and JT.

 

Re-sign Sedins both 1 year 1 mill + plenty of bonuses... 

Convince Tavares to sign 10 mill or something

 

Boom...

Something - Tavares - Something

Sven - Bo - Brock 

Sedin - Sutter - Sedin 

Cup. Real simple. 

 

Somethings could be jake, elias, w.e 

 

Some young guys developing too...

Split LE's salary in 3 ways and boom...the world is fair again.

[PuckYa]

11 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Since Horvat went down the team has gradually started to lose its swagger and sense of confidence.

 

At the beginning of the season the team believed it could win any game... and the players believed they could come back from a deficit.

 

But that is now eroding fast.

 

From my perspective you can tie that loss to Horvat's absence.  He was, and is, the real leader of the team.  Over the last two years he has quietly taken charge of the Canucks and made it his team... showing by example and by effort game in and game out, providing the inspiration for the rest of the team.

 

Maybe he doesn't wear the 'C' or an 'A', but he shows leadership every time he is on the ice... both in his demeanor and in his play.

 

Horvat is the complete package... he can score, he can be physical, he can be a playmaker, he can control the faceoff dot and he can be a shutdown forward.  Sometimes it is easy to overlook how effective he is because he just gets down to business every shift.  But he also has the ability to single handedly pick up the team on his back and lift them... with his end to end rushes.  It is the threat of him taking the puck end to end is which makes the rest of his linemates more effective... the opposing team has to respect his rush and that means more room and time for the others on his line.  He forces the opposing team to key on on him and his line and that opens the game for the rest of the Canucks.

 

By drawing the focus of the other team's best players, he gives the Sedins and the rest of the team the kinds of line matchups which they can take advantage of.  It is no surprise Eriksson and the Sedins were thriving when Bo's line was intact... now Eriksson has disappeared... the Sedins are still scoring, but that is because they are getting #1 minutes, and they can no longer be a #1 line.

 

Boeser has continued to play well, but he is feeling the pressure and the focus of the other team's checkers... he would have a lot more room if Bo was wheeling on his line... not to mention he'd be getting a lot more pucks on his stick as a result of faceoff wins.

 

It's gonna be another process to rebuild the confidence of this team again after Bo returns... it probably won't happen right away.  For one, its an ankle injury, Bo's skating will be affected, and he will take time to get up to speed.

 

But I believe we will see the change in direction start to happen when Bo comes back.

 

If there is one thing which I draw from the season... it's that the MVP of the team is Horvat.  Yes, Boeser is getting better and he will be great... but all the dimensions which Horvat brings to the game makes him a special player for the Canucks.

 

 

 

These 2 have been our stars forwards for the past 10+ years. Total respect but before the Sedins retire they should hand the letters over to our 2 core guys as they've earned the honors now. I think it should be done soon, no disrespect but it's clear the young are our future & these 2 are the biggest parts moving forward.

 

H. Sedin hand the "C" to Bo Horvat

D. Sedin hand the "A" to Brock Boeser

 

What better way to show the class that these 2 Sedins have always brought. 

What better 2 guys to hand it over to. Both mature way beyond there respected ages & got leadership written all over them.

Also I wouldn't want to even think where we'd be without these 2 studs moving forward. 

[canuckleface77]

13 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Since Horvat went down the team has gradually started to lose its swagger and sense of confidence.

 

At the beginning of the season the team believed it could win any game... and the players believed they could come back from a deficit.

 

But that is now eroding fast.

 

From my perspective you can tie that loss to Horvat's absence.  He was, and is, the real leader of the team.  Over the last two years he has quietly taken charge of the Canucks and made it his team... showing by example and by effort game in and game out, providing the inspiration for the rest of the team.

 

Maybe he doesn't wear the 'C' or an 'A', but he shows leadership every time he is on the ice... both in his demeanor and in his play.

 

Horvat is the complete package... he can score, he can be physical, he can be a playmaker, he can control the faceoff dot and he can be a shutdown forward.  Sometimes it is easy to overlook how effective he is because he just gets down to business every shift.  But he also has the ability to single handedly pick up the team on his back and lift them... with his end to end rushes.  It is the threat of him taking the puck end to end is which makes the rest of his linemates more effective... the opposing team has to respect his rush and that means more room and time for the others on his line.  He forces the opposing team to key on on him and his line and that opens the game for the rest of the Canucks.

 

By drawing the focus of the other team's best players, he gives the Sedins and the rest of the team the kinds of line matchups which they can take advantage of.  It is no surprise Eriksson and the Sedins were thriving when Bo's line was intact... now Eriksson has disappeared... the Sedins are still scoring, but that is because they are getting #1 minutes, and they can no longer be a #1 line.

 

Boeser has continued to play well, but he is feeling the pressure and the focus of the other team's checkers... he would have a lot more room if Bo was wheeling on his line... not to mention he'd be getting a lot more pucks on his stick as a result of faceoff wins.

 

It's gonna be another process to rebuild the confidence of this team again after Bo returns... it probably won't happen right away.  For one, its an ankle injury, Bo's skating will be affected, and he will take time to get up to speed.

 

But I believe we will see the change in direction start to happen when Bo comes back.

 

If there is one thing which I draw from the season... it's that the MVP of the team is Horvat.  Yes, Boeser is getting better and he will be great... but all the dimensions which Horvat brings to the game makes him a special player for the Canucks.

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more.  One of the better draft day deals this organization has done.  I hope he continues to sit and rest until he is 120% healed.  Give that body some down time, we're gonna need it in 3 to 4 years when this team starts to have deep cup runs (trust me, it's coming).  Plus, we add another top 5 pick to this prospect pool and it's going to be an incredible time to be a Canucks fan in the next few years.

 

And we haven't even see what Guddy & Vanek will fetch yet at TD.  God help us that Edler will fetch a 2nd or 3rd rounder and a tube of Pringles. So many bright spots emerging this year for the future. Excited!

[JeremyCuddles]

As much as I want to overplay the importance of Bo but our lack of success recently isn't just cause we lost Bo. We lost Baer, we lost Dorsett, Edler and Gudbanson we lost for a good 10 games each, Brandon Sutter has played 23 games this season, Tanev is in and out of the lineup. These are the guys that are entrusted with keeping the kids minutes to a minimum as they learn to be pros. Goldy wouldn't even be playing if we were healthy. Our depth is solid, but not solid enough to cover losing a 1st line and having our top D pair constantly in and out of the lineup. I doubt many teams could survive losing the amount of important players we have as often as we have.