The Status of This Year's Team is Clear: A Big Head's Take

[EdgarM]

4 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I am sorry but what part of losing two games for every one you win is forming a  "winning attitude"? I tell what is happening here, the Sedins are showing how to be professional while losing games. The kids, all two/three of them are learning to play regardless of the score, that the game is just like primary school sports day, you get the ribbon for participating, in this case, the money. The professionalism is in taking the losses and not letting them overwhelm them, learning to deal with media questions and go with the flow.

 

The coach shows the young guys that once you have "the contract" it is okay to slide, take games off and not be held responsible, have the contract and the guaranteed ice time or play every game. Erkisson one goal in half the season? 

 

 

We were doing quite fine before the injuries, same as last year. I do agree about Ericksson though.

[The Lock]

18 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I am sorry but what part of losing two games for every one you win is forming a  "winning attitude"? I tell what is happening here, the Sedins are showing how to be professional while losing games. The kids, all two/three of them are learning to play regardless of the score, that the game is just like primary school sports day, you get the ribbon for participating, in this case, the money. The professionalism is in taking the losses and not letting them overwhelm them, learning to deal with media questions and go with the flow.

 

The coach shows the young guys that once you have "the contract" it is okay to slide, take games off and not be held responsible, have the contract and the guaranteed ice time or play every game. Erkisson one goal in half the season? 

 

 

Inflicting a losing attitude is when you purposely are bad in order to tank. We're just bad at the moment with all of these injuries, but at least our players are trying. There's a difference and a huge one at that.

 

Also, there is no professionalism in purposely taking in loses and dealing with media. Professionalism is when a team tries no matter if they are good or bad which is what the Sedins do. I really hope what you've said is not your actual attitude and that you're just trying to troll.

[189lb enforcers?]

44 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Inflicting a losing attitude is when you purposely are bad in order to tank. We're just bad at the moment with all of these injuries, but at least our players are trying. There's a difference and a huge one at that.

 

Also, there is no professionalism in purposely taking in loses and dealing with media. Professionalism is when a team tries no matter if they are good or bad which is what the Sedins do. I really hope what you've said is not your actual attitude and that you're just trying to troll.

Do you have any examples which support your claim about how NHL professionals adopt a losing attitude?

 

[IBatch]

On 12/01/2018 at 12:56 AM, Horvats_Big_Head said:

After a great start to the year, which saw a remarkable uptick in quality of play versus previous years, the boys caught the injury bug. They are now 2-11 without Horvat in the lineup. Boeser has been an absolute stud, he and the Sedins can't carry this team. So the results are to be expected. 

 

That leaves us in the position we are now, tanking for a shot at the #1 pick and drafting our #1 D man that has eluded this franchise since birth. Yes, Horvat may come back in time and the team could get healthy for a miracle run at the playoffs, but this is very unlikely. We should be tanking which means trading our top UFA assets at the deadline. This would include trading Vanek (a 2nd?) and Gudbranson (3rd?) no question. 

 

This does NOT include trading one of our top young Defensemen, BEN HUTTON. Hutton needs to stay, as we are still not sure if Juolevi will amount to much. I sure think he will but Ben Hutton is our insurance piece. Plus he still could get better. Defensemen progress slower than forwards sometimes. Ben is just in a slump right now and will improve. Trade the vets and all of our useless prospects, such as Cassels. We traded Subban and that was great, but we now have too many prospects who we know will not amount to anything. 

 

Overall, it has been a very good first half of the season. Some of the most exciting Canucks hockey I've seen in over 5 years. And we are tanking for just one more year, then next year I expect us to take another step forwards. We are about to cash in on a lot of prospects ready to take over, and boy is it going to be a great ride. 

 

I added a poll to make this thread more interesting. Again, I need to stress that we cannot trade Ben Hutton. 

We can trade Hutton for another defenseman.  Or pretty much anyone else not named Boeser, with the exception of maybe Horvat given the teams winning percentage goes up when we have two centers competing.    We need more defenseman that much is clear, but we could go out on a limb for a prospect project like Shea Theadore and come out on top in the long run.  Philly has a glut of excellent young defenseman, trading Horvat for Ghost or Provorov would certainly be interesting too.  Patrick is probably their long term answer for their number two spot at least, but it's just a statement saying that nobody is untouchable on this team if it's better for us long term ( what would Boeser get us?  Wouldn't want to do that but the point is as long as we come out on top trade wise, it's always a good trade).

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Do you have any examples which support your claim about how NHL professionals adopt a losing attitude?

 

The recent Oilers comes to mind, pre Mcdavid, but even he can't seem to push their team over the top.  Trading Hall doesn't look so good (if it ever did), which doesn't help.  Instead of Lucic they should have gone heavily after the best UFA defenseman available and kept Hall.  Their teams a mess.  It's impossible to say that a losing culture krept into that organization, but they didn't take much time to cut off some big pieces that grew up stinking.   Hall and NJ seem to have taken a step forward so you can definitely argue ( same with Eberle in NYI) that the players themselves can get over losing fast.   Cant think of any other team except maybe Buffulo,ARI and us but all those teams are in the rebuilding stage so losing is to be expected.

[Amebushi]

I put maybe and it seems pretty obvious to me. If the return is there you make the trade. He is young and has overachieved his draft position.  Maybe he gets better, probably not. He is far from untouchable in my opinion but is a serviceable player. If you are not going to get back a better player or a draft pick worth losing him (in my opinion take a 2nd and make the trade) then you keep him. His current value indicates he likely stays but he would certainly be available if I was in charge. Every player can be traded for the right price. Hutton is one of many interchangeable parts on this team. A good GM makes as many moves as needed to improve. 

[The Lock]

2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Do you have any examples which support your claim about how NHL professionals adopt a losing attitude?

 

It's Guardian's claim, not mine. I'm saying it's not professional to adopt a losing attitude and going against what he's saying.

 

So no, I don't have examples because they don't exist but that shouldn't matter because it's not my claim in the first place. lol

[Topcheeze86]

Hes havving an off year dealing obviously with confidence issues...hes young offensive minded and should be apart of our future going forward u people are nuts whos next? You need these peices to build the foundation for the next wave 

[guntrix]

On 2018-01-11 at 11:09 PM, xereau said:

This team is still mired in the shadow of the Sedins.  Even with a 'lesser' role (not since Horvat and Sutter went down), the team still emulates their soft permeter, impossible fancy pass style of play.  The entire team has moved away from the relentless north south puck pursuit game that Green had them playing at the start of the season. I am going to as far as saying that this team has not even begun to rebuild until the twins are retired.

Not sure what’s more disturbing, this comment or the number of upvotes. 

 

This is why why we can’t have nice things. Give it a couple years and people will be crapping on Brock for shooting too much. 

 

The success/failure of this team doesn’t lie with the playing style of 2/18 players. 

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, guntrix said:

Not sure what’s more disturbing, this comment or the number of upvotes. 

 

This is why why we can’t have nice things. Give it a couple years and people will be crapping on Brock for shooting too much. 

 

The success/failure of this team doesn’t lie with the playing style of 2/18 players. 

For once I agree with you. lol

 

It's a team sport and I'm amazed at how many people seem to forget that.

[oldnews]

On 1/12/2018 at 8:05 AM, xereau said:

Yep, I am saying that the team emulates the Sedin's style of play, as part of a culture, as part of the inherent human behavioral profile to copy those around you.

So we should credit the Sedins with Boeser's success?

[Baggins]

13 hours ago, EdgarM said:

I don't think its just all about aggression the work ethic and "team" effort have a lot to do with it too. Read the article I submitted above(Ronning onLinden) to see what I mean. Don't even mention Messier's tenure here because he was not here to help us win a cup he was simply here to cash his cheques. 

Oh I read it. Nice story. Remember Henrik having the tip of his finger removed because it was a faster healing time than waiting for the bone to heal? Don't recall Henrik dropping to his knees to take face-offs because his ribs and back were so bad it was the only way he could do it? He didn't sit out the finals after a back injury against the Sharks. Nor did Kesler, Higgins, Edler, Ehrhoff, or Bieksa. I don't think anybody on the team (current or former) would question Henriks work ethic or commitment.

[EdgarM]

6 hours ago, Baggins said:

Oh I read it. Nice story. Remember Henrik having the tip of his finger removed because it was a faster healing time than waiting for the bone to heal? Don't recall Henrik dropping to his knees to take face-offs because his ribs and back were so bad it was the only way he could do it? He didn't sit out the finals after a back injury against the Sharks. Nor did Kesler, Higgins, Edler, Ehrhoff, or Bieksa. I don't think anybody on the team (current or former) would question Henriks work ethic or commitment.

Hey I am not taking anything away from Hank as a player, he has been one of our greatest players ever to don the jersey. I have watched him ever since he was drafted. My concern is that he has carried the "gentlemanly" handle ever since coming into the NHL and it was so bad they used to be called the Sedin "Sisters". Not something you want your "Leader" to be known for. I really believe he would have been better served to carry on with the team without the burden of carrying the "C". Same with Bure when he was here. This team might have had a different outcome in 2011 if Kessler, Bieksa or even Burrows was the Captain at that time IMO.

[CroSen]

3 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

Hey I am not taking anything away from Hank as a player, he has been one of our greatest players ever to don the jersey. I have watched him ever since he was drafted. My concern is that he has carried the "gentlemanly" handle ever since coming into the NHL and it was so bad they used to be called the Sedin "Sisters". Not something you want your "Leader" to be known for. I really believe he would have been better served to carry on with the team without the burden of carrying the "C". Same with Bure when he was here. This team might have had a different outcome in 2011 if Kessler, Bieksa or even Burrows was the Captain at that time IMO.

That speaks more to a sexist society then it does to the Sedins themselves. 

[TheGuardian_]

18 hours ago, The Lock said:

Inflicting a losing attitude is when you purposely are bad in order to tank. We're just bad at the moment with all of these injuries, but at least our players are trying. There's a difference and a huge one at that.

 

Also, there is no professionalism in purposely taking in loses and dealing with media. Professionalism is when a team tries no matter if they are good or bad which is what the Sedins do. I really hope what you've said is not your actual attitude and that you're just trying to troll.

Players that are on losing teams will eventually give up. If the management is responsible, ala "tank", which I don't think this team is doing, then the players can feel it is not their fault, that they are better than the team's record. It is when they lose no matter how hard they try that they start "accepting" losing.

 

I stopped the tanking idea after the McDavid draft, but having better odds is not so bad either. That is the thing, I do think this team is doing the very best they can and this is where they are at.

 

The professionalism is coming in the form of acceptance that the team is as good as it is and not getting bent out of shape over the standings. All these players have been or are hyper competitive and losing should be almost unbearable. Teams/players can have a winning attitude and they can also have a losing attitude,.

 

In pro hockey it is worse because these guys learn they will be paid no matter what.

[J.I.A.H.N]

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎12 at 7:08 AM, Ghostsof1915 said:

Are you saying that 2 players out of 18 skaters dictate how the other 16 players play? It's pretty clear this is a different team with Bo Horvat, whether he's wearing a C or no.

It's the composition of the team as a whole is the issue here. Dorsett until he re-aggravated his injury seemed to spark the team as well. If there's a fault here it's coaching relying too heavily on the Sedins, when they should be in the stage of thier careers where they are complimentary players. But then we lost our entire top line briefly, and still awaitng Bo and Sutter to come back. The scorers we have don't seem to be physical. And the physical/checking players can't score. We are only on year 3 of Benning's rebuild, we should be expecting pain. I also feel our coaching support staff of Baumgartner, Brown, and Cloutier is not getting the most out of our players. Specifically the power play, defence, and goaltending. 

Ghost, I understand what you mean, but don't you think that loosing our #1 and #2 centers, and our #1 left Wing, and our #1 defenseman, had a lot to do with players playing out of their expected positions, and really out of their comfort zones....

 

Outside of Brock, and to a lesser extent Vanek, where were the depth players that could honestly move into the vacant positions? Not on the Canucks. Our depth and replacement players are still developing, and regardless if everyone thinks we should have taken MT in the draft, we are still waiting for another couple of years before we will have enough depth to sustain a rash of injuries to key personnel

 

For me, I don't see the Sedin's retiring this coming July, as there is no insurance that we do have the depth to replace them. I personally put some stock in Gaudette because of his age and what he has done this year, but he is still an unproven commodity......and that is just at Center. Look at our defense and I know you understand it will take some time to get it up to top 10 status.

 

I take this as a journey, and something that will not be fixed in 2 or 3 years...............IMO it will take 3 or 4 years to draft the talent and then another 2 to 3 years for that talent to develop. that is 4 to 6 years if everything goes well.

 

This is why I advocate moving assets (Edler/Vanek/MDZ etc.) as these guys will either by themselves, of as a multi-player deal, get us picks that will improve the "Chance" that depth will improve through the draft.

 

This is the route we should be taking, and fans need to be a little more patient in their expectations.......Benning reminds me of the poor kid in the cartoons that plugged the leak in the dam with his finger, only to have another 10 holes appear.......the moral of that story is you can only do so much, so fast!

 

Benning has put together a much better prospect group that "should " mature at close to the same time, and with this years draft full of defensemen, hopefully, we can add another couple of high end defensemen prospects.......I can't place my hopes on getting the #1 pick, but McAvoy wasn't a number one pick, so I see us hopefully coming up with a talent close to his level, where we will pick.

 

Now, if we could get another pick in the early to mid 20's, we "could" be in the position to have our defensive stores replenished.......even if the 2nd is early enough, it may come from there..........

 

As for whether we move players we have just signed a year earlier, and be worried about UFA's coming here.............it will be our picks that dictate whether we move up the rankings, and most UFA's are motivated by money and a chance at the cup. not what the Organization did 3 or 4 years earlier........so by the time our team is competing, most UFA's will have forgotten, what Benning did this year.......so will the agents that get their 10% from the highest bidder.

 

My apologies to you for commenting in your post, because I honestly think you get "IT", but it was after reading your post that, I said screw it and started writing......

 

To your comment.......I think our young guys (prospects) will have some jam.......again, we will have to wait!

 

PS...............just a random question, but where have all our vets been during this rash of injuries, certainly not stepping up!

[J.I.A.H.N]

Just another comment, as I am on a roll....................

 

A tank is where a team, deliberately goes out and tries to loose off the get go. Asset management is where you play the game as a GM, where you see where your team is going to place, before acting.............

 

I believe that after a team has for what ever reason (Lack of Talent or injuries). been shown where they will end up in the standings, then development and asset management should come to the forefront.

 

So, now that the team, has been down for so long, because of injury, Benning should be using the TDL to improve our draft chances, and to also bring up players to see how they show.........Demko, McEwen, McEneny, Brisboise, Chatfield......not to sit in the press box, but to get into some game action on a short term alternating basis.

 

A couple of game here, a couple of games there............lets see what we have

 

I am reminded of Gary Cheavers, who was a lousy practice goalie, but with the game on the line, was outstanding...........well maybe some of these kids will show better in the big show.............but if they are never given the chance...we will never know....aside from Demko. of course!

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

Starting to really question some of the coaching decisions actually, and I do like Green and believe he will be a successful coach but his inability to healthy scratch veteran players and scratch youth on a rebuild team is kind of pissing me off. 

 

Chicago(Quenneville) wasn't happy with Seabrooks game and made him a healthy scratch and that's on a winning team not a rebuild team yet. Then just saw Dallas(Hitchcock) did the same with Spezza made him a healthy scratch again on a winning team not a rebuild team.

 

Both these players are veterans with big contracts but their coaches weren't scared to make them a healthy scratch because they weren't happy with their play and they expect them to play better. So why is it any different here in Vancouver, just because we're not on a winning team and in a rebuild we let the veterans get a free pass because we don't want to win?

 

Spezza had 1 point in his last 7 games and hadn't scored a goal in over 10 games but he played again and scored 2 goals looks like he got the message. Eriksson had gone longer than that without a point he went 18 games before scoring a goal, but I guess he's played so well he deserved to be in the lineup over youth.

 

I'm just kind of sick and tired of watching our coaches(WD and TG) lacking experience in benching Veterans when they clearly should be a healthy scratch, and taking the easy path way out and scratching youth instead, because they're afraid to make that decision. 

[King Heffy]

7 hours ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Starting to really question some of the coaching decisions actually, and I do like Green and believe he will be a successful coach but his inability to healthy scratch veteran players and scratch youth on a rebuild team is kind of pissing me off. 

 

Chicago(Quenneville) wasn't happy with Seabrooks game and made him a healthy scratch and that's on a winning team not a rebuild team yet. Then just saw Dallas(Hitchcock) did the same with Spezza made him a healthy scratch again on a winning team not a rebuild team.

 

Both these players are veterans with big contracts but their coaches weren't scared to make them a healthy scratch because they weren't happy with their play and they expect them to play better. So why is it any different here in Vancouver, just because we're not on a winning team and in a rebuild we let the veterans get a free pass because we don't want to win?

 

Spezza had 1 point in his last 7 games and hadn't scored a goal in over 10 games but he played again and scored 2 goals looks like he got the message. Eriksson had gone longer than that without a point he went 18 games before scoring a goal, but I guess he's played so well he deserved to be in the lineup over youth.

 

I'm just kind of sick and tired of watching our coaches(WD and TG) lacking experience in benching Veterans when they clearly should be a healthy scratch, and taking the easy path way out and scratching youth instead, because they're afraid to make that decision. 

Which young players have been scratched recently when they haven't deserved it? 

 

Green is trying to make our youth better for the long term.  Virtanen is buying in, Gaunce is a very good checking forward, Boeser took his initial scratching as a challenge and is dominating.  If a young player needs a reminder to work hard, a benching is a tool for Green.  The vets won't learn from it as much and won't be here much longer anyway.

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

13 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Which young players have been scratched recently when they haven't deserved it? 

 

Green is trying to make our youth better for the long term.  Virtanen is buying in, Gaunce is a very good checking forward, Boeser took his initial scratching as a challenge and is dominating.  If a young player needs a reminder to work hard, a benching is a tool for Green.  The vets won't learn from it as much and won't be here much longer anyway.

Part of my rant goes from the last 3 years, but Edler is someone who should of been a healthy scratch to be better and there were other players who could of played that 1 game. Eriksson definitely should of been scratched many times and wasn't, Ganger is another one but I can give the coach the benefit of the doubt for Gagner because of Sutter and Horvats injuries. Boeser was a mistake by Green at the beginning who really didn't think he was ready, Virtanen was a healthy scratch over Eriksson, Goldy another one now sent down who imo played better then Eriksson. 

 

Your last sentence is actually disturbing they're the ones making the most money out of everyone, when your making millions of dollars to produce and your not I'm sorry, but a message needs to be sent no matter how old you are, when you're making that much damn money to lead a team and set examples for your youth, it's a wake up call not learning.