oldnews Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: I don't disagree on the production, but what about defensively or that they must always be together.... don't you see those as potentially being issues? I think the Sedins are well below average defensive forwards - and that is not about to change. They don't have the foot speed or aggressive, physical puck separating game to be effective defensively. Which is why they've always been role players - that are utilized in specialized, ozone start minutes. They've never been sheltered in the sense of quality of competition - coaches have never shied against going strength to strength with the Sedins. Their defensive game is a clear limitation. However, there are a number of contributing factors. First, if a team is deep and talented - as a team like the Ducks are - they not only have a gaggle of excellent shutdown forwards, but they also have a lethal top end of scoring threats. So, they can not only create opportune minutes for guys like the Sedins, but they also have top end guys that will command the opposition's best - will be the guys facing the shutdown matchups. The Canucks have been sledding along with neither - no top line (no Horvat, no Baertschi) and no shutdown line (no Sutter, no Dorsett). So, realistically, they've been unable to generate those opportune matchups and ozone starts, and alongside Boeser, Gagner, Vanek, they've also effectively been '1A/1B' lines. Nevertheless, in 15 minutes a night they're producing 56 pt seasons. +/- is meaningless out of context. I'm simply spitballing their potential utility as rentals - and I think it's conceivable that they could be good secondary scoring support in the right context. The Sedins may not be NHL-quality defensive forwards, but they're still pretty good role players - and even without the kind of support they'd ideally have, they're still producing. That is how I look at their value - not just with their weakness as an isolating factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 It's akin to Sam Gagner. If Gagner is producing 50 pts on your 3rd line, for 3 million, you are laughing. If Gagner is producing 50 pts as your 1C, you are a lottery team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 13 hours ago, billabong said: Make a poll, do you want the Sedins back? Yes or no? Even At 1yr/1m? Personally i think it would be stupid to re-sign them before we see how the off season plays out. Don’t start spending till July 1st is my point no doubt they are the best players and human beings that have ever played for this team, but this team doesn’t owe them anything and at 38 how effective can they be? Their fitness is still world class, yes they have lost a step but as long as they stay in top shape there isn't really much concern that their overall effectiveness will get worse for some time. Like their early forties. They still are the best players some nights, which means without them we need guys to step up. Our recent forward UFA group are not as good, heck the Sedins were still killing it at L.E.s age, Gagne is easily replaceable....so we either have to draft a star that can play right away or Petterson and one of Lind, Gadjovich, Goldobin or Dahlen can step in next year and produce in the fifty point range. Don't see that happening so a series of one year deals make good sense for Vancouver until our youth movement can take hold. I'm fine with anything in the 3-3.5 million range maybe with bonus incentives, anything more is too much...Ideally we sign them for one more year AND the youth movement adds two more capable rookies and Benning can work a trade to make room for them and add picks to replace the depth at the lower levels (AHL etc). I'm also ok with just not re-signing them, most likely the team would have a tough time without them, but another year like the past two will only further prospect pool, which in turn will add much needed guys cheap guys once we are bumping against the cap because Horvat, Boeser, Demko, Juolevi, Virtanen ( add a few of Gaudette,Lind, Gadjovich, Goldobin, Dahlen, Tryamkin) reach their RFA/UFA status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, oldnews said: What absurd comparables. Bailey is expiring - watch what Bailey signs for - after this 5 year deal ends - one he signed at age 23, when he was a 30-35 pt player. Coyle - who they are outproducing, is in the midst of a contract he signed at age 23, as an RFA - and was a 35-40 pt player when he signed it... The Sedins have 62 points combined in 45 games this year - playing middle six minutes. They're tracking for 56 pts each. Thanks for the "wake up" but your take on 'reality', isn't. The Sedins are allowed to play sheltered minutes, PP, are not apparently expected to defend AND they are on $7M each - twice what these players are on. Expiring? behave yourself. I see you have lurched into straw man mode as is your wont. Bailey has scored 53 points on his own in 44 games and is +3, face-offs at 51% He is earning $3.2M and of course he can defend. Henrik has 32 points in 46 games is -13 and has a face off percentage of 48%. He is earning $7M and can't defend to save himself. My point was not just output although in Bailey's case he is almost outputting as much as both Sedins. It is the fact that for half their salary (the salary you are proposing) we could get players who could defend, give a physical presence AND contribute on the scoreboard on the 4th line where you are laughingly placing the Sedins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, alfstonker said: yawn Ermagerd, Daniel Sedin made 3.6 million in 2009 - when he was 28 years old. Scoring 82 pts. There's your absurd Josh Bailey comparable. can't be bothered with your style of 'discussion' tbh. cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 The Canucks need a new identity and leadership core. The Sedins have no place on the team next year just for image sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 8 hours ago, alfstonker said: Honestly are they playing like $3.5M? - Who would you rather have Josh Bailey, Eric Stall, Charlie Coyle, Eler, Burakovsky? They are all playing for $3.5m or less. Each - here we go again - take one and double it. Why not take just one and free up $10.5 or more realistically $12.5 because neither is worth more than $1.5 if that at present. This fan base needs to wake up and start comparing present day value/worth/ability to what else is out there and shake the image of the Sedins 5-10 years ago out of their heads. Like I said before though. They are still on pace to score 50+ goals. They obviously are not who they used to be but the points are still showing on the stat sheet. Not to mention their leadership skills. When our prospects time and time again have said how they look up to the Sedins, that says something does it not? I get it. You want to move on from them, but that doesn't give the excuse to think that many of us are in some fantasyland regarding the Sedins. I've given you stats and explained my stance. I'm not saying they are who they used to be, but I also don't think they are as fragile as you seem to make them out to be. They are 37 years old. I don't really know what you expect from them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 31 minutes ago, oldnews said: yawn can't be bothered with your style of 'discussion' tbh. cheers. It's ok, you just take a rest and get your strength back. I was finished anyway. Edit: If you can't be bothered fine but you seem to have had a new burst of energy while no one was looking. I see you have added some gibberish which has nothing to do with either the debate or reality. "Ermagerd, Daniel Sedin made 3.6 million in 2009 - when he was 28 years old. Scoring 82 pts." Only you know the relevance of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, The Lock said: Like I said before though. They are still on pace to score 50+ goals. They obviously are not who they used to be but the points are still showing on the stat sheet. Not to mention their leadership skills. When our prospects time and time again have said how they look up to the Sedins, that says something does it not? I get it. You want to move on from them, but that doesn't give the excuse to think that many of us are in some fantasyland regarding the Sedins. I've given you stats and explained my stance. I'm not saying they are who they used to be, but I also don't think they are as fragile as you seem to make them out to be. They are 37 years old. I don't really know what you expect from them? TL its not really what they are doing any more although that has diminished enough, it's what they can't do. We need players who can defend. What is the point in benching the youngsters for failing to defend when we have two 2nd/1st liners who make a an art out of it. We also need them replaced with players who have push back. Most of our fans are crying out for a change in identity. An identity that is respected throughout the league because we can play any way it takes to win. I'm not going over it all again. there are plenty of posts by myself and others that covers why it is time for them to retire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, alfstonker said: It's ok, you just take a rest and get your strength back. I was finished anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, alfstonker said: TL its not really what they are doing any more although that has diminished enough, it's what they can't do. We need players who can defend. What is the point in benching the youngsters for failing to defend when we have two 2nd/1st liners who make a an art out of it. We also need them replaced with players who have push back. Most of our fans are crying out for a change in identity. An identity that is respected throughout the league because we can play any way it takes to win. I'm not going over it all again. there are plenty of posts by myself and others that covers why it is time for them to retire. The way I see it, we've seen a drastic change of identity over the past 3 or 4 years. Most of our previous team is gone and the only players we still have from that time are the Sedins and Edler. 3 or 4 years ago, we didn't know Horvat would become a really good player. We also didn't know who Boeser was. The thing is, we need a bit of everything: players who can defend, players who can score, players who can playmake.... players who lead. Horvat obviously is someone who can and I would expect Boeser to too, but I think the question comes where does one exit the old leadership and bring in the new leadership? I think it should be up to the Sedins and not us in the end. Really. What's one more year in all of this? Should we really rush our prospects or should we give them one more year of leadership from the Sedins? I think that's where the grey area comes in. I'm kind of on the fence with all of this, but I can see your side and I can also see the opposing side. I think both you and them are correct in their own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 14 hours ago, Qwags said: If you were Benning, how much would you re-sign the Sedins for. I would go for 3.5M each. Max and at that only a one year deal. Elias? Bo Boeser Granlund Sutter Loui Sedin Sedin Gaudette Bae Gagner Virtanen ----------------------------- Gaunce Dowd Goldy Dahlen Gadjo line up gets pretty cramped and I'm not convinced the Sedins make the Canucks a better team than the guys sitting. Goldy Dahlen in perspective might score as many as the Sedins given the highest % O zone starts in the league and at least Green can staple them to the bench if he doesn't like their back check. Sedins take 2 minute shifts and get scored on cuz their slow to the bench and it's like no big deal. Dowd and Gaunce can eat tough low event minutes leaving Elias Horvat Boeser to play on O. Where otherwise they would have to carry the Sedins D responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, oldnews said: I think the Sedins are well below average defensive forwards - and that is not about to change. They don't have the foot speed or aggressive, physical puck separating game to be effective defensively. Which is why they've always been role players - that are utilized in specialized, ozone start minutes. They've never been sheltered in the sense of quality of competition - coaches have never shied against going strength to strength with the Sedins. Their defensive game is a clear limitation. However, there are a number of contributing factors. First, if a team is deep and talented - as a team like the Ducks are - they not only have a gaggle of excellent shutdown forwards, but they also have a lethal top end of scoring threats. So, they can not only create opportune minutes for guys like the Sedins, but they also have top end guys that will command the opposition's best - will be the guys facing the shutdown matchups. The Canucks have been sledding along with neither - no top line (no Horvat, no Baertschi) and no shutdown line (no Sutter, no Dorsett). So, realistically, they've been unable to generate those opportune matchups and ozone starts, and alongside Boeser, Gagner, Vanek, they've also effectively been '1A/1B' lines. Nevertheless, in 15 minutes a night they're producing 56 pt seasons. +/- is meaningless out of context. I'm simply spitballing their potential utility as rentals - and I think it's conceivable that they could be good secondary scoring support in the right context. The Sedins may not be NHL-quality defensive forwards, but they're still pretty good role players - and even without the kind of support they'd ideally have, they're still producing. That is how I look at their value - not just with their weakness as an isolating factor. that all makes sense. My concern is over how someone like Goldy or Jake for e.g., develops if we hang on to them. And I am by no means saying they are any kind of "bad influence" or "holding anyone back" its like you say they are specialists, and imo not an ideal development partner for a kid imo so that falls to the other 3 lines to find space for them. But having said that nether Jake or Goldy have done enough on their own yet to warrant any more time and Goldy hasn't managed to outcompete Chaput yet. I guess its all depends on who else is on the market. Would I take a hypothetical free agent combo of James Neal and Tom Wilson over the Sedins for the same money.. yah I would because of the upgrade in toughness. If the Sedins took a major paycut and we added Wilson to replace the toughness lost with Dorsett....maybe thats enough F moves for next season given all the other contracts and possible youth additions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 54 minutes ago, The Lock said: Like I said before though. They are still on pace to score 50+ goals. They obviously are not who they used to be but the points are still showing on the stat sheet. Not to mention their leadership skills. When our prospects time and time again have said how they look up to the Sedins, that says something does it not? I get it. You want to move on from them, but that doesn't give the excuse to think that many of us are in some fantasyland regarding the Sedins. I've given you stats and explained my stance. I'm not saying they are who they used to be, but I also don't think they are as fragile as you seem to make them out to be. They are 37 years old. I don't really know what you expect from them? .........TO RETIRE?.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adarsh Sant Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 1/19/2018 at 6:00 PM, Me_ said: Trade and re-sign in the summer? I'd take that. 2 1st rounders and a top flight prospect. Show me a team with 14 mil in cap space that can make this deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: that all makes sense. My concern is over how someone like Goldy or Jake for e.g., develops if we hang on to them. And I am by no means saying they are any kind of "bad influence" or "holding anyone back" its like you say they are specialists, and imo not an ideal development partner for a kid imo so that falls to the other 3 lines to find space for them. But having said that nether Jake or Goldy have done enough on their own yet to warrant any more time and Goldy hasn't managed to outcompete Chaput yet. I guess its all depends on who else is on the market. Would I take a hypothetical free agent combo of James Neal and Tom Wilson over the Sedins for the same money.. yah I would because of the upgrade in toughness. If the Sedins took a major paycut and we added Wilson to replace the toughness lost with Dorsett....maybe thats enough F moves for next season given all the other contracts and possible youth additions. I'm not really spitballing free agency at this point (although I think guys like Neal and Wilson will probably get higher paydays than the Sedins) - I'm more looking at these comments from JP Barry and the indication of talks before the deadline and spitballing what that could possibly mean if there were any inclination to be rentals, whether the motivation for that would be to possibly help the team recover futures, or for them to have an opportunity to compete for a Cup while they're still productive - or both. I have no idea if it's a real possiblity, or what the Sedins are thinking, or whether their agent's intention is to give the team adequate headway to factor into their decisions. There may be no chance/realistic possiblity of renting them - or there may be - but I imagine all parties are looking at all the possibilities as part of due dilligence. Maybe just as importantly though - if the team does not intend to re-sign the Sedins (assuming the Sedins would re-sign here, as they've always seemed to indicate they would) - if management shares your (or others) preference to go to free agency for other, different or young assets - and the Sedins intend to play another year - it might be helpful to get out ahead of FA, perhaps making decision before the deadline, possibly rented with benefits to both sides - and how aggressively management approaches that (market). Either way, even if they re-sign, they may be interested in a Vermette type opportunity where he went to the Hawks and back to Arizona (who then strangely, bought him out). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 1/19/2018 at 10:26 PM, EdgarM said: Are the Sedins future changing? Yes, the Sedins can change the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I’d rather see this team lose well in battle with some hungry desperados than watch another Sedin shelter-fest, while Bo and Sutter do all the heavy lifting. The Sedins offer very few reasons to keep them on the gravey train while employing the rest of the team to play support for that one dimensional Sedin line. For me, and of no surprise to most, my view is that the Sedins need to go so a new team identity can form. The days of Naslund/Sedin leadership needs to die a natural death before this team can regain respect lost from this intimidated, pushover mentality that the team has had for most of a decade now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 57 minutes ago, The Lock said: The way I see it, we've seen a drastic change of identity over the past 3 or 4 years. Most of our previous team is gone and the only players we still have from that time are the Sedins and Edler. 3 or 4 years ago, we didn't know Horvat would become a really good player. We also didn't know who Boeser was. The Sedins and Edler remain as half of the team’s old core. Still. For all of the change, nothing changed that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 27 minutes ago, Adarsh Sant said: Show me a team with 14 mil in cap space that can make this deal Cap is pro-rated - ie take the number of days in the season, divide the remaining days by that number - about 25%ish....the Sedins real cap hit from deadline forward is in the 3.5 million range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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