Gurn Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 So people don't want to buy oil from the Saudi's because they are a brutal regressive regime; but people want to build a pipeline to sell oil to a brutal repressive regime called China? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, gurn said: So people don't want to buy oil from the Saudi's because they are a brutal regressive regime; but people want to build a pipeline to sell oil to a brutal repressive regime called China? Its not just China. Indonesia and India are also highly interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 21 hours ago, gurn said: So people don't want to buy oil from the Saudi's because they are a brutal regressive regime; but people want to build a pipeline to sell oil to a brutal repressive regime called China? Hmmm I wonder where you shop. The western world has made China rich because of slave labour. China has huge oil and gas deals with Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: Hmmm I wonder where you shop. The western world has made China rich because of slave labour. China has huge oil and gas deals with Russia. its not just China, there's potential sales in Japan, S.Korea and Taiwan from what I've read. But even with the KM project finished its not going to be easy, or necessarily a river of cash. AB oil will always be sold at a discount. The Pacific Basin offers a valuable prospective market for Canadian crude oil over the next 20 years, according to available data and forecasts. Oil demand in the region is growing and refinery capacity is growing to meet anticipated demand. However, this market will attract a significant level of competition from alternative crude oil suppliers, many with crude oils that require less upgrading than the WCS blend. Supplying the Pacific Basin will entail a varying range of discounts in order to remain competitive, reflecting the increased cost of shipping in addition to the quality discount inherent in the heavy oil itself. https://www.policyschool.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/pacific-basin-hackett-noda-grissom-moore-winter.pdf There's a lot of info on the potential markets in the link if anyone's interested. Edited January 16, 2019 by Jimmy McGill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) I hope the native bands purchase the pipeline. It's a great opportunity for them, as so much support would fall their way if they are the owners. If we are really losing $80 million per day, that is $29 billion per year, so $145 billion over the next 5 years, against the cost of the pipeline. The numbers support the economics, the natives are likely licking their chops. Edited January 16, 2019 by aliboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 42 minutes ago, aliboy said: I hope the native bands purchase the pipeline. It's a great opportunity for them, as so much support would fall their way if they are the owners. If we are really losing $80 million per day, that is $29 billion per year, so $145 billion over the next 5 years, against the cost of the pipeline. The numbers support the economics, the natives are likely licking their chops. I agree that it would be a great thing, but I wonder if they would be able to muster the solidarity (not to mention the cash) to make it happen. I don't have the statistics for how many reserves the proposed pipeline would pass through, but like a lot of polarizing topics, you're going to find vehement opposition from some bands and support from others. Whether they could somehow all agree to such a plan is anybody's guess, but I'm skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said: I agree that it would be a great thing, but I wonder if they would be able to muster the solidarity (not to mention the cash) to make it happen. I don't have the statistics for how many reserves the proposed pipeline would pass through, but like a lot of polarizing topics, you're going to find vehement opposition from some bands and support from others. Whether they could somehow all agree to such a plan is anybody's guess, but I'm skeptical. There is an association of over 100 bands that is currently looking into the purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, aliboy said: There is an association of over 100 bands that is currently looking into the purchase. Hoping for the best there. Also hoping that one recalcitrant group doesn't mess it up for all the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 This seems the appropriate thread for this article: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/vancouver-votes-to-declare-climate-emergency/ar-BBSnmr4?li=AAggXBV Vancouver city councillors have voted to join cities such as Los Angeles and London in declaring a climate emergency. The city clerk's office says in a social media post that councillors voted unanimously to approve the motion. Councillor Christine Boyle, who moved the resolution, says staff now have the mandate to "dramatically strengthen" Vancouver's climate action plan. She says that could include new methods to reduce greenhouse gas emissions beyond the city's current climate targets and creating a special working group to support Vancouver's efforts to transition off of fossil fuels. The resolution also calls for a framework to ensure communities most vulnerable to the impact of the changes are supported first. Boyle says climate change is already affecting Vancouver residents and addressing the emergency won't be easy. "We are a smart city, capable of doing difficult things," Boyle says in a news release. "We need to respond to this crisis urgently and compassionately with path towards a more equitable society." Vancouver's carbon pollution levels are seven per cent below 2007 levels, representing an average reduction of less than one per cent per year over the past decade. An average annual reduction of over three per cent is necessary to meet the city's 2030 targets, the release says. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violator Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Thats a really weak effort and doesn't really do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 7 hours ago, Violator said: Thats a really weak effort and doesn't really do anything. Any attempt Canada makes is utterly ridiculous and won't matter until the US does something. Until then we are just hurting our own Economy. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violator Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 People talk about refining stuff logs is a big thing we also export. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4982990 B.C. vows to curb raw log exports, wood waste with sweeping policy reforms 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Why the expansion is essential Pipelines Make Sense Why we're expanding Trans Mountain Reaching global markets The Trans Mountain Pipeline expansion project is our chance to foster new relationships in the global market and get a higher price for our oil. All Canadians will benefit from opening up new markets for our energy resources. Why is Canada expanding the Trans Mountain Pipeline? Play button The Trans Mountain Pipeline makes us less reliant on the United States. That's one of many crucial reasons the expansion matters. [1:30] facebook Share twitter Share Gaining new customers helps Canada Canada and the United States have a unique trading relationship. Our shared border means we’re reliant on one another for various economic activities, and both countries have benefited from our strong economic ties. But relying on a single customer for our energy products is problematic for a number of reasons: Having one customer forces us to sell our energy resources at a discounted price, which means less money for what’s important to all Canadians – health care, schools, roads, public transit and hospitals. While the U.S. will continue to be the largest customer for Canadian oil, our southern neighbour is producing more and more oil domestically. That makes it a less reliable market. Depending on a single customer is not a smart way for any industry to operate. Expanding the Trans Mountain Pipeline gives us the ability to sell our energy resources to multiple international customers at higher market prices – and transport them in a way that creates fewer greenhouse gas emissions. Canada loses money daily by not entering global markets It’s been more than 60 years since we last built an oil pipeline to Canada's west coast. We lose money – a lot of money – every day that this pipeline expansion is delayed. Applying the methodology from a February 2018 Scotiabank report to October 2018 oil prices, the Government of Alberta estimates the cost to the Canadian economy at roughly $80 million dollars a day. That’s why increased pipeline capacity to bring oil to markets overseas is needed now. So we can get a higher price for our products to fund the things that matter most to Canadians. Diversifying energy markets increases revenue If there's only one possible market to buy your products, that market has all the leverage – and you're forced to take the price they offer. Only by diversifying our energy markets beyond the United States can we maximize the return we receive on oil products. Without the Trans Mountain expansion in place, revenue that should be staying in Canada goes south of the border. Every Canadian has a stake in getting top dollar for our resources. We need to access new markets to make that happen. Share the facts By giving Canada the means to sell oil in international markets, the Trans Mountain Pipeline will generate an estimated $3.7 billion more a year for our oil. Source(Opens in a new tab) facebookShare on Facebook twitterShare on Twitter Limited pipeline capacity can cause Canadian oil to be discounted by as much as $30 per barrel. The Trans Mountain expansion will help Canada command higher value for its resources. Source(Opens in a new tab) facebookShare on Facebook twitterShare on Twitter Over the next 20 years, Trans Mountain Pipeline is expected to generate $46.7 billion that will be used to build roads, schools and hospitals across the country. Source(Opens in a new tab) facebookShare on Facebook twitterShare on Twitter Oil and gas contributes to the Canadian economy Canada is the seventh largest oil producer in the world. There is no doubt the oil and gas sector adds a lot of value to the Canadian economy. But compared to other areas, exactly how much does our oil and gas sector contribute to the economy? A lot. A recent article by ATB Financial’s Economics + Research Team, using Statistics Canada data, compares the auto industry to the oil and gas sector. The article points out “that oil and gas extraction is the larger of the two industries. In fact, it’s not even close with oil and gas accounting for $114 billion of Canada’s GDP last year compared to $18 billiongenerated by the auto sector.” While that $18 billion is significant, the oil and gas sector is worth over six times more than what the auto sector brings to the table. Meanwhile, “the economic output of the oil and gas sector has been rising in recent years while the growth profile for the auto sector has been relatively flat.” If we continue to believe that “the auto sector is the lifeblood of the Canadian economy,” that means we’re ignoring the significant contribution oil and gas makes to Canada’s economy – employing more people than the auto sector, creating more jobs and providing more government revenues for our roads, schools and hospitals. Jobs & economy A strong oil and gas industry benefits individuals and families, businesses and communities across Canada. Learn more Climate action The Trans Mountain expansion is the first time a Canadian pipeline has been paired with actions to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Learn more Canadian leaders show their support Naheed NenshiMAYOR OF CALGARY "I’m strongly behind Premier Notley on whatever she does to push this. I’m also calling on the federal government and their jurisdiction in this matter and to ensure that we don’t hold up the economy of all of Canada – and safe, clean Canadian energy – for political reasons in our province." Ernie CreyCHIEF, CHEAM FIRST NATION "If this project doesn’t go through, it’ll hurt our people… (The Trans Mountain Pipeline) will provide a major leg out of poverty." Surrey Board of Trade "Access to markets, including building trade infrastructure, is what we want to see government deliver. These infrastructure projects are trade enabling, and they will drive economic growth for decades to come. They will create jobs for Canadian families and generate tax revenues for governments confronting massive deficits." Justin TrudeauPRIME MINISTER "The decision we made was in the national interest and we're going to move forward with that decision, which means we're going to get the Trans Mountain Pipeline built." Stephen McNeilPREMIER OF NOVA SCOTIA "We've continued to rely on one customer, which is the United States. The movement of that product to the West Coast makes sense to me and that product should be allowed to go into the marketplace." Greg D’AvignonPRESIDENT & CEO, BUSINESS COUNCIL OF BRITISH COLUMBIA "This decision will directly impact British Columbian families whose livelihoods depend upon well-paying jobs in the construction and energy sectors, and put at risk First Nations’ abilities to more fully participate in the economy." Stephen HuntDIRECTOR, UNITED STEELWORKERS - DISTRICT 3 "Members of the United Steelworkers are proud that the pipeline will be utilizing Canadian-made, USW-built pipe. But it’s not just for Steelworkers. The Trans Mountain Pipeline will also offer family supporting employment to thousands of working people. We stand with them." Audrey PoitrasPRESIDENT OF THE MÉTIS NATION OF ALBERTA "The Métis of Alberta are working together to provide a better future for our children and grandchildren. Solid economic investment, including pipelines like the Trans Mountain, is the right way to go." Guillaum W. DubreuilPUBLIC AFFAIRS & MEDIA RELATIONS, CANADIAN CHAMBER OF COMMERCE "The Canadian Chamber again calls on the federal government to stand behind its own regulatory processes and to fulfil its constitutional responsibilities. The federal government needs to act now by engaging directly with the province of British Columbia and ensuring that the fair and scientifically sound decisions on the Trans Mountain Pipeline are carried out." Naheed NenshiMAYOR OF CALGARY "I’m strongly behind Premier Notley on whatever she does to push this. I’m also calling on the federal government and their jurisdiction in this matter and to ensure that we don’t hold up the economy of all of Canada – and safe, clean Canadian energy – for political reasons in our province." Ernie CreyCHIEF, CHEAM FIRST NATION "If this project doesn’t go through, it’ll hurt our people… (The Trans Mountain Pipeline) will provide a major leg out of poverty." Surrey Board of Trade "Access to markets, including building trade infrastructure, is what we want to see government deliver. These infrastructure projects are trade enabling, and they will drive economic growth for decades to come. They will create jobs for Canadian families and generate tax revenues for governments confronting massive deficits." Justin TrudeauPRIME MINISTER "The decision we made was in the national interest and we're going to move forward with that decision, which means we're going to get the Trans Mountain Pipeline built." Stephen McNeilPREMIER OF NOVA SCOTIA "We've continued to rely on one customer, which is the United States. The movement of that product to the West Coast makes sense to me and that product should be allowed to go into the marketplace." Greg D’AvignonPRESIDENT & CEO, BUSINESS COUNCIL OF BRITISH COLUMBIA "This decision will directly impact British Columbian families whose livelihoods depend upon well-paying jobs in the construction and energy sectors, and put at risk First Nations’ abilities to more fully participate in the economy." Stephen HuntDIRECTOR, UNITED STEELWORKERS - DISTRICT 3 "Members of the United Steelworkers are proud that the pipeline will be utilizing Canadian-made, USW-built pipe. But it’s not just for Steelworkers. The Trans Mountain Pipeline will also offer family supporting employment to thousands of working people. We stand with them." Audrey PoitrasPRESIDENT OF THE MÉTIS NATION OF ALBERTA "The Métis of Alberta are working together to provide a better future for our children and grandchildren. Solid economic investment, including pipelines like the Trans Mountain, is the right way to go." Guillaum W. DubreuilPUBLIC AFFAIRS & MEDIA RELATIONS, CANADIAN CHAMBER OF COMMERCE "The Canadian Chamber again calls on the federal government to stand behind its own regulatory processes and to fulfil its constitutional responsibilities. The federal government needs to act now by engaging directly with the province of British Columbia and ensuring that the fair and scientifically sound decisions on the Trans Mountain Pipeline are carried out." Naheed NenshiMAYOR OF CALGARY "I’m strongly behind Premier Notley on whatever she does to push this. I’m also calling on the federal government and their jurisdiction in this matter and to ensure that we don’t hold up the economy of all of Canada – and safe, clean Canadian energy – for political reasons in our province." Ernie CreyCHIEF, CHEAM FIRST NATION "If this project doesn’t go through, it’ll hurt our people… (The Trans Mountain Pipeline) will provide a major leg out of poverty." Surrey Board of Trade "Access to markets, including building trade infrastructure, is what we want to see government deliver. These infrastructure projects are trade enabling, and they will drive economic growth for decades to come. They will create jobs for Canadian families and generate tax revenues for governments confronting massive deficits." Justin TrudeauPRIME MINISTER "The decision we made was in the national interest and we're going to move forward with that decision, which means we're going to get the Trans Mountain Pipeline built." Stephen McNeilPREMIER OF NOVA SCOTIA "We've continued to rely on one customer, which is the United States. The movement of that product to the West Coast makes sense to me and that product should be allowed to go into the marketplace." Greg D’AvignonPRESIDENT & CEO, BUSINESS COUNCIL OF BRITISH COLUMBIA "This decision will directly impact British Columbian families whose livelihoods depend upon well-paying jobs in the construction and energy sectors, and put at risk First Nations’ abilities to more fully participate in the economy." Stephen HuntDIRECTOR, UNITED STEELWORKERS - DISTRICT 3 "Members of the United Steelworkers are proud that the pipeline will be utilizing Canadian-made, USW-built pipe. But it’s not just for Steelworkers. The Trans Mountain Pipeline will also offer family supporting employment to thousands of working people. We stand with them." Audrey PoitrasPRESIDENT OF THE MÉTIS NATION OF ALBERTA "The Métis of Alberta are working together to provide a better future for our children and grandchildren. Solid economic investment, including pipelines like the Trans Mountain, is the right way to go." Guillaum W. DubreuilPUBLIC AFFAIRS & MEDIA RELATIONS, CANADIAN CHAMBER OF COMMERCE "The Canadian Chamber again calls on the federal government to stand behind its own regulatory processes and to fulfil its constitutional responsibilities. The federal government needs to act now by engaging directly with the province of British Columbia and ensuring that the fair and scientifically sound decisions on the Trans Mountain Pipeline are 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 @Rob_Zepp thanks for posting just some factual info on it. For sure there are benefits. I'd prefer to see it done via safer tech like the canapucks, but with the aboriginal investment group IRCC poised to make a pitch to the feds to buy the KM project, there's a lot more at stake now in terms of a real, independent revenue stream for some first nations which would be a great outcome for this project. I don't think its going to move the needle for people totally opposed on environmental grounds, but to me the IRCC being involved as potential owners is a game changer in terms of people who were on the fence about supporting it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 propaganda much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, inane said: propaganda much? there's nothing in there that can't be backed up tho, regardless of where you stand on the project, particularly being locked into one main customer at the moment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tre Mac Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, inane said: propaganda much? When in doubt post the quotes twice so it looks like it has double the support 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Vanderhoek Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Canada needs to take advantage of the resources we have by getting them to market, albeit in a safe and well thought out manner. That said we need to grow our natural gas infrastructure based off of last fall's explosion that hurt supply in B.C. Where it gets messy is who is the actual leaders of specific Indigenous groups? as we see elected indigenous leaders making decisions and agreeing to deals but hereditary leaders are being pushed aside which is problematic since until recent such leaders were the voice of these different groups. So people can get frustrated or angry that blockades are happening or some groups are protesting but the Government is trying to move on these things without cleaning up and clearing up the grey areas re: who certain Indigenous groups leadership really is ( which is why you see these people screaming at whats going on ). End of the day nobody can deny we need to take advantage where we can of our place in the global market or risk losing out, the potential can be beneficial to all our citizens. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush17 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 They can stick the pipeline up their tailpipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 What exactly are the environmental impacts anyways? Is the worst case scenario that bad? If the answer is yes, is all the money in the world going to be enough to repair a disaster in these waters? I think we have to look at what the worst case actually is and weigh the social benefits of whoring out such an environment for a buck. The rugged, super-ecosystem of the Pacif Ocean’s west coast is the best thing about BC and protecting it from man-made disaster is paramount to all. I’m not a treehugger, but these waters can’t just be cleaned up with a broom so I have grave reservations concerning the apparent risks involved in introducing this hazard into this system. I can’t imagine any Indian bands will allow this in their waters. Possibly those upstream and those landlocked. Money talks, as we’ve seen, but not for those along the pacific coast, not that I’ve seen. Some things are sacred and should be treated with reverence and secured. Is this project worth the risk? 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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