Baggins Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Pete M said: Hope they are now on the right path to building a better team than Boston...got a feeling though that JB still likes the old guys. Bruins: Chara 41 Backes 33 Nash 33 Bergeron 32 Krejci 31 McQuaid 31 Miller 30 Wingels 30 Holden 30 Marchand 29 3 pending ufa's Canucks: Sedin 37 Sedin 37 Jokenin 35 Erickson 32 Dorsett 31 Edler 31 Sutter 29 Sedin, Sedin and Dorsett are definitely gone for next year. Jokenin is the only other pending ufa and likely gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 18 hours ago, mikeyman109 said: I don't think anyone wants to hand out a free pass but you cannot argue the fact the Bruins have added more than one Rookie to the team this year and they have stepped in and played well. With a rebuilding team we need to see what we have. We wont know until they play a few NHL games. Brock was an example. i know there are players who step in right away and fall face first. We will see that also. But i am seeing enough of the players Benning has picked up to think they will make the right decision on the right players.Dahlen and Petterson might not be ready this season. But as we go we will see who is ready at Camp and maybe another one or two surprise us all.I will get excited when we see what piece of the puzzle we add in June and what a healthy line up looks like in October. The 5 Bruin rookies to play significant games this year: Kuraly 25 Grzelcyk 24 Heinen 22 Debrusk 21 McAvoy 20 Seems most have had significant development time. The very reason Benning doesn't want to rush guys in. Plus as pointed out there's more older veteran players on the Bruins than we have here. Maybe Benning is on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Pete M said: that's why they are tops in the league and the Canucks are bottom of the league...Canucks could learn from them or they could bury their head in the sand and not learn. that's a poor analogy wadr. The Bruins won with a younger core than Vancouver had. They still have Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, etc to show for their Cup team. They also had the ability to flip guys in their prime - ie Lucic and Dougie Hamilton - in retool moves that gave them a whack of picks in the process. They turned those two players into 2x1sts, 2 x 2nds, Martin Jones (who then became another 1st) and Colin Miller (who buffered them in the expansion draft). What specifically were/are they supposed to learn from Boston? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 1 hour ago, oldnews said: that's a poor analogy wadr. The Bruins won with a younger core than Vancouver had. They still have Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, etc to show for their Cup team. They also had the ability to flip guys in their prime - ie Lucic and Dougie Hamilton - in retool moves that gave them a whack of picks in the process. They turned those two players into 2x1sts, 2 x 2nds, Martin Jones (who then became another 1st) and Colin Miller (who buffered them in the expansion draft). What specifically were/are they supposed to learn from Boston? You're starting to catch on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 19 hours ago, aGENT said: The Bruins are a different team, with different players and are generally in their own, different and unique situation. It really has very little bearing on what the Canucks do. That seems so lost on people. If the Canucks were rebuilding with Bergeron, Chara, Rask, Krejci, McQuaid, Nash, Backes and some rat-faced weasel as the vets to add too, then more rookies could certainly be added for Vancouver too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Baggins said: Bruins: Chara 41 Backes 33 Nash 33 Bergeron 32 Krejci 31 McQuaid 31 Miller 30 Wingels 30 Holden 30 Marchand 29 3 pending ufa's Canucks: Sedin 37 Sedin 37 Jokenin 35 Erickson 32 Dorsett 31 Edler 31 Sutter 29 Sedin, Sedin and Dorsett are definitely gone for next year. Jokenin is the only other pending ufa and likely gone. Most players enter their prime at 26 and remain for 5 or 6 years if they are lucky... The players on the Canucks who are in their prime are average players at best compared to the Bruins...if they (Canucks) develop their young guys, by playing them, then they have a few years to grow together before they hit their prime. The difference is the young players on the Canucks are your Krejcis, Marchands, Bergerons. I believe Boston drafted these players and they grew up and developed together. It is now time to bring the young guys up and start developing them at the NHL level...there are indicators that this is what management is starting to do... Bringing in quality UFAs (quality over place holders) is the next step in order to support the young core...Kane and a stud UFA dman will help the cause. Boston brought in Nash and Backes, who imho are long in the tooth. The Canucks targeting players like Kane (lots of upside) to grow with the kids is better than bringing in the old Nash's and Backes (who are on the downside). Tryamkin could be our Chara...there is potential here, now, to start building what Boston has. In fact, if they make the right moves, and develop the young guys, then the Canucks may have more longevity with this young core than Boston has now with their core. Boston drafted their core and then developed them...Canucks are just starting to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Pete M said: You're starting to catch on. and you aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, oldnews said: and you aren't. just tired of being a bottom feeder with average place holders...looking forward to the young guys kick'n ass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 30 minutes ago, Pete M said: just tired of being a bottom feeder with average place holders...looking forward to the young guys kick'n ass... most people are. But I think if you want to track the difference between a team like Boston and Vancouver you'd have to go back to previous management groups and look at the fact there was so little attention paid to the next generation, with arguably one single move / asset committed to the future in the Schneider deal. Before - and after that for some time, there was no real shift in priorities towards the future - so to suggest that Benning should learn from Boston imo doesn't really take into account what he had to work with when he arrived here, or what he's managed to make of what he did have to work with. If you want a young core to inherit the placeholders positions, I'm not sure there's much to complain about where Benning is concerned - he's done little other than build towards that. Not wanting placeholeder in the meantime is to essentially believe that the team had an alternative option - when they had next to nothing to grow into those roles when he arrived, let alone step into those roles in the shorter run. Now you have the actual makings of a conceivable next core - and aside from one Kesler, he didn't really have much in the way of highly marketable previous core pieces to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 4 hours ago, Pete M said: Most players enter their prime at 26 and remain for 5 or 6 years if they are lucky... The players on the Canucks who are in their prime are average players at best compared to the Bruins...if they (Canucks) develop their young guys, by playing them, then they have a few years to grow together before they hit their prime. The difference is the young players on the Canucks are your Krejcis, Marchands, Bergerons. I believe Boston drafted these players and they grew up and developed together. It is now time to bring the young guys up and start developing them at the NHL level...there are indicators that this is what management is starting to do... Bringing in quality UFAs (quality over place holders) is the next step in order to support the young core...Kane and a stud UFA dman will help the cause. Boston brought in Nash and Backes, who imho are long in the tooth. The Canucks targeting players like Kane (lots of upside) to grow with the kids is better than bringing in the old Nash's and Backes (who are on the downside). Tryamkin could be our Chara...there is potential here, now, to start building what Boston has. In fact, if they make the right moves, and develop the young guys, then the Canucks may have more longevity with this young core than Boston has now with their core. Boston drafted their core and then developed them...Canucks are just starting to do this. So you're saying what Benning can learn from the Bruins is to have a better starting point. You know, like having good veterans in their prime and a prospect pool and in four years he'll have a good team. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 10 hours ago, Baggins said: So you're saying what Benning can learn from the Bruins is to have a better starting point. You know, like having good veterans in their prime and a prospect pool and in four years he'll have a good team. Gotcha. More forward thinking than that...now that the young guys are a year older and proving themselves at a level just below the NHL...next step is to play them at the NHL level and bring quality to surround them and support them.(i.e., not Gagner and an injury prone LE and place holders)...more like a Kane and a stud UFA dman... ...the young core could grow into a core like Krejci, Marchand and Bergeron...you have me repeating myself, but I'm okay with taking it slow with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucksnihilist Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 On 4/16/2018 at 11:47 AM, aGENT said: lol, I'm not sure what you think I'm being '100%' about but I agree that nuance in context is decidedly missing from most conversations these days and it's sad. And not just on CDC. I blame twitter. I was simply pointing out the silliness of on one hand damning the team for signing middling vets and then on the other, attempting to hold up the VGK's as some shining example of 'give prospects a chance' when they're actually a FAR better example of why middling vets make for a better NHL team than prospects who aren't ready I don't think they were given 'free passes' last year and I don't think they'll be given free passes next year either. yes, these quick posts really lack context. its easy to assume a context, which is almost never the one the poster had! We really have to be diligent about not assuming anything - like our own biases or anti-biases thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 17 hours ago, Pete M said: More forward thinking than that...now that the young guys are a year older and proving themselves at a level just below the NHL...next step is to play them at the NHL level and bring quality to surround them and support them.(i.e., not Gagner and an injury prone LE and place holders)...more like a Kane and a stud UFA dman... ...the young core could grow into a core like Krejci, Marchand and Bergeron...you have me repeating myself, but I'm okay with taking it slow with you. Except Benning didn't get to start with Krejci, Marchand and Bergeron in their prime or a Norris d-man (even if getting long in the tooth). He didn't start with prospect pool worth mentioning either. You see the difference between what Benning started with and what the B's had 4 years ago are very difference beasts to build from. Benning is in a catch 22. Fans want all the young guys tossed into the lineup so they have shiny new toys to watch. He knows that's not for the best. As we've seen these past three years if you don't have quality prospects on the farm you're down the toilet when injuries occur. It's up to prospects to steal spots. Play so well they can't be sent down. Not hand them spots and cross your fingers. If they don't steal that spot it's not going to hurt any of them to go to Utica. At this point in rebuilding placeholders is all you want. We're at the see who emerges stage of the rebuild. Then you supplement that new core with quality free agents knowing exactly what is needed to put the team over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 5 hours ago, Baggins said: Except Benning didn't get to start with Krejci, Marchand and Bergeron in their prime or a Norris d-man (even if getting long in the tooth). He didn't start with prospect pool worth mentioning either. You see the difference between what Benning started with and what the B's had 4 years ago are very difference beasts to build from. Benning is in a catch 22. Fans want all the young guys tossed into the lineup so they have shiny new toys to watch. He knows that's not for the best. As we've seen these past three years if you don't have quality prospects on the farm you're down the toilet when injuries occur. It's up to prospects to steal spots. Play so well they can't be sent down. Not hand them spots and cross your fingers. If they don't steal that spot it's not going to hurt any of them to go to Utica. At this point in rebuilding placeholders is all you want. We're at the see who emerges stage of the rebuild. Then you supplement that new core with quality free agents knowing exactly what is needed to put the team over the top. Players like Pettersson, Gaudette, Dahlen, Goldy, possibly OJ should be able to take spots this coming year and play regular minutes... There are players in the game today at 20 and 21 years old that are kick'n ass...I can see these young guys doing the same if given the opportunity over place holders like Gagner, LE and Jussi...(maybe keep one ...LE). You base your argument on protecting the young guys in the past, but forget that the Canucks finished 2nd, 3rd, and 6th from last in the last three years....they definitely were not protected from a losing environment (other than not having the opportunity to play). What's more important than past failures, now, is the direction Linden, JB and TG will be taking with this roster...if they start bringing in 30+ year old players like they have in the past 3 years, then most fans will be very disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, Pete M said: Players like Pettersson, Gaudette, Dahlen, Goldy, possibly OJ should be able to take spots this coming year and play regular minutes... There are players in the game today at 20 and 21 years old that are kick'n ass...I can see these young guys doing the same if given the opportunity over place holders like Gagner, LE and Jussi...(maybe keep one ...LE). You base your argument on protecting the young guys in the past, but forget that the Canucks finished 2nd, 3rd, and 6th from last in the last three years....they definitely were not protected from a losing environment (other than not having the opportunity to play). What's more important than past failures, now, is the direction Linden, JB and TG will be taking with this roster...if they start bringing in 30+ year old players like they have in the past 3 years, then most fans will be very disappointed. Based on what their great camp and preseason to take a spot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Pete M said: You base your argument on protecting the young guys in the past, but forget that the Canucks finished 2nd, 3rd, and 6th from last in the last three years....they definitely were not protected from a losing environment (other than not having the opportunity to play). You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what 'sheltering young players' means. It doesn't (necessarily anyway) equate to winning games. Without guys like Gagner, MDZ etc, who do you think gets thrown in to game situations, over their heads, when the going gets tough? When injuries occur? Who do you think starts getting run roughshod in the media when the team is losing in those situations? What happens when guys just trying to get a footing in the league have a tough go in situations over their heads and are being lambasted at every turn? You think that's good for their confidence or development? Guys like Gagner, MDZ etc are here to absorb all that vitriol and pressure so kids can just develop and gain confidence. It's not about 'winning now', or 'foolishly trying to make the playoffs with a bottom 10 team' as so many want to skewer management for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Will there be trades before draft day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 15 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said: Will there be trades before draft day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 1 hour ago, aGENT said: You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what 'sheltering young players' means. It doesn't (necessarily anyway) equate to winning games. Without guys like Gagner, MDZ etc, who do you think gets thrown in to game situations, over their heads, when the going gets tough? When injuries occur? Who do you think starts getting run roughshod in the media when the team is losing in those situations? What happens when guys just trying to get a footing in the league have a tough go in situations over their heads and are being lambasted at every turn? You think that's good for their confidence or development? Guys like Gagner, MDZ etc are here to absorb all that vitriol and pressure so kids can just develop and gain confidence. It's not about 'winning now', or 'foolishly trying to make the playoffs with a bottom 10 team' as so many want to skewer management for. fair enough... Looking forward, players like Gaudette could excel, just like Boeser, if given the opportunity and not be held to higher standard than the place holders like Gagner, who makes mistakes and lets plays die on his stick all the time. For example, Gaudette could easily be put in the same category as a Pierre Luc Dubois and if given the chance could possibly excel like PLD...but first, he needs to be given the opportunity to gain traction at the NHL level without the pressure of making mistakes....same could be said about Pettersson and Dahlen. Time to start cutting bait on some of these average place holders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, Pete M said: fair enough... Looking forward, players like Gaudette could excel, just like Boeser, if given the opportunity and not be held to higher standard than the place holders like Gagner, who makes mistakes and lets plays die on his stick all the time. For example, Gaudette could easily be put in the same category as a Pierre Luc Dubois and if given the chance could possibly excel like PLD...but first, he needs to be given the opportunity to gain traction at the NHL level without the pressure of making mistakes....same could be said about Pettersson and Dahlen. Time to start cutting bait on some of these average place holders That time will come when those kids are clearly outplaying them every game (see: Boeser). And even then for the next 1-2 years, IMO it's far more likely we see guys like Baer get passed and moved for value and the couple remaining vets continue to be a 'Teflon barrier' to the prospects we're keeping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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