Media Vs. the Fans

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, Down by the River said:

Agreed. DT kind of went the way of Jim Hughson. Once he reached a certain status, he seemed to just stop trying. 

I like the 1040s other DT - Dave Tomlinson.  He's an ex pro, and he knows the game from a player's POV.  He often has good points that really contradict guys (like Pratt and everyone else on 1040) who never played.

[Tre Mac]

30 minutes ago, dpn1 said:

I like 1040 9:00 am to 12 noon H&B i find they are quite funny. 

I find them annoying af

[Tre Mac]

I get tired of Botch and Gallagher but don't mind guys like Jeff Paterson asking tough questions.  I don't think the media is all that negative to be honest.  Look at how bad this team has been for the past 5 years, there isn't anything to be positive about aside from Boeser and Horvat.  If you guys don't like reading so much negativity around this team tell the Canucks to start winning lol.

[Down by the River]

Just now, Tre Mac said:

I get tired of Botch and Gallagher but don't mind guys like Jeff Paterson asking tough questions.  I don't think the media is all that negative to be honest.  Look at how bad this team has been for the past 5 years, their isn't anything to be positive about aside from Boeser and Horvat.  If you guys don't like reading so much negativity around this team tell the Canucks to start winning lol.

Its not the negativity that a lot of people find annoying. Its that "reporters" are mostly now seen as untrustworthy gossip columnists. 

[Gaudette Celly]

It's not so much representative but that the impressionable ones who listen to them then parrot their assertions.  We've been inculcated with the belief that anyone in print, radio, and especially TV is somehow an expert and that their opinion is akin to fact.

[xereau]

Fans are passionate about the team.

Media are passionate about clicks.

[TheGuardian_]

What I am finding on CDC is a real polarization between the for and against, mostly the pro side is left here.

 

Those in the middle most have lost faith and don't pay much attention here anymore. You have to admit membership or members posting here have declined and in the HF boards, the board that is more critical of whatever that isn't happening, has grown considerably even though the "pro" crowd over there is also declining.

 

For years the media has led some fans around by the nose, they did all the thinking the fans needed. But after three and half years of supporting the Linden/Benning regime, even they are losing market and integrity. They can't keep saying how good things are when the standings are glaringly the opposite, they can't keep saying how good he prospects are when prospects don't play, they can't keep agreeing that there is a rebuild when vets are signed, roster spots used up and draft picks not collected. For three + years the media has supported the Nucks in just abou all moves, even for the most controversial, the Eriksson contract. 

 

Some media, that aren't controlled by the Nucks through access, advertising, owned or mass astro surfing negativity in those social media accounts. 

 

Media used to be doing a sport a favour by paying attention to them, as the league became larger and more sophisticated as well how Burke  stared dealing with the media it changed how the media act, if you want to report on the NHL, get access to be a paid reporter, the negativity has to go and support the teams. Even in lopsided losses it is how such and such did well or one play or how it will be better the next game or it is to be expected as they are in transition.

 

Everyone hates Botchford and Gallagher, why? Why aren't there more media people hated? Neil McRae was an icon for calling what was, not what was hoped for or what management was selling. He would been all over this management group over the for years of selling essentially lies, about how they did one thing while saying another, he would have been cajoling the players to play better so they had value to other teams and could get traded out of this mickey mouse operation. And he would not have been the only one, there were quite a few, maybe not as blunt, but critical. Lately it looks like MacIntyre was slapped for his initial thoughts regarding the Gudbranson signing, it was his job on the line if he didn't "soften" his position. 

 

So many the younger fans and posters have been desensitized to criticsizm and even idea of competition rather than participation.

 

Some of the media is only now starting to report what the team is supposed to be doing, trying to win a season, while the paid media is selling a single game. See they are competitive TONIGHT, they still lost, but it was close. The paid media and the team are trying to sell single events as being competition and a single night of entertainment. They sell a season on what might be, prospects, tomorrow.

 

As more fans disappear and if this management group is "goned" then see how much the media dump on them for every mistake, that will take the story into the next 9 years, one way or another.  

[butters]

the media and a good part of the fans are in a codependant unhealthy relationship. The truth is, there isn't really enough that goes on to justify daily media coverage of a team, but there is demand for it. So they find filler for that demand. Sports media caters to anger addicts and is always looking to stir the pot. Its best to avoid it completely. Sports media is pretty close to fox news, except what they cover doesn't really matter.

[dpn1]

I enjoy RF and how he is unflinching and goes head to head with anyone. 

[butters]

1 minute ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Neil McRae was an icon for calling what was, not what was hoped for or what management was selling. He would been all over this management group over the for years of selling essentially lies, about how they did one thing while saying another, he would have been cajoling the players to play better so they had value to other teams and could get traded out of this mickey mouse operation. And he would not have been the only one, there were quite a few, maybe not as blunt, but critical. Lately it looks like MacIntyre was slapped for his initial thoughts regarding the Gudbranson signing, it was his job on the line if he didn't "soften" his position. 

 

Naw, he was just a nerd rager egging on other nerd ragers.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, TimberWolf said:

It's very simple. If we agree with it, it's fair and balanced news and if we disagree it's fake

I don't agree with all of Biech's views (he his after all of Canucks Army originally and is a little analytics biased etc) but I appreciate what he brings to the table with detailed and informed opinion and information. The guy knows his stuff and can speak intelligently about it even if I don't agree with 100% of his views.

 

So no.

[TheGuardian_]

23 minutes ago, butters said:

Naw, he was just a nerd rager egging on other nerd ragers.

I hope that was stated in humour, it is not nice to speak of the dead like that. And he had quite a following .

 

You probably dislike Raif Mair as well eh? He did the same thing only on a different subject. 

[Silky mitts]

Canucks Twitter is the most vicious in the entire nhl

[TheGuardian_]

20 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I don't agree with all of Biech's views (he his after all of Canucks Army originally and is a little analytics biased etc) but I appreciate what he brings to the table with detailed and informed opinion and information. The guy knows his stuff and can speak intelligently about it even if I don't agree with 100% of his views.

 

So no.

This is just an interesting post from the Canucks Army warning it is long;

 

I have posted many times that Linden/Benning's education is a lot less than the average fan.

 

About That Authority You’re Appealing To…

February 23, 2018, 10:00 AM | Jeremy Davis

 

The big news this week is obviously the re-signing of Canucks defenceman Erik Gudbranson. It’s everywhere, and you’d have to be actively ignoring all things Canuck-related to miss it (although no one would think less of you for it).

This news was such a massive deal that it’s only natural that everyone – from pro-Benning to anti-Benning, west coast to east coast, fan to blogger to national analyst – has an opinion on it. Everyone has a right to an opinion, and no one in this country in this day and age can prevent you from expressing it. That doesn’t necessarily mean that all opinions are of equal value though.

 

No, I’m not going to get into a statistics versus eye-test type of debate today; I’ve already gone far enough down that road. My interest today is not about those two methods of forming opinions, but a third option: basing opinions off of what someone else told you.

Because every Vancouver hockey fan seems to have an opinion on Gudbranson, there is no shortage of people available to give you their impression of him. There is a natural inclination, however, to listen to those people who are in positions of power in a relevant area.

Around here, that typically means the management staff of the Canucks or some other NHL team. These are a group of people who have been involved in hockey for their entire lives. They played the game; they were in the dressing rooms; they battled out there on the ice. They are real, authentic Hockey Men. Therefore, they have an understanding of what it takes to win in this league, making them ideal candidates to assemble the right group of players and subsequently deploy them in an ideal fashion.

If you are one of those people that assumes that hockey executives always know what they are doing because it’s their job to know, you are engaging in a logical fallacy called the appeal to authority. This fallacy can be defined as “an error in reasoning which occurs when someone adopts a position because that position is affirmed by a person they believe to be an authority.” For instance: because Canucks general manager Jim Benning is an authority figure in hockey, his opinions on hockey matters are most likely correct.

There are some serious issues with this assumption. First and foremost, it assumes that experience in the hockey world provides one with a level of expertise in all areas connected to hockey, including management. There’s a pretty big leap of logic required to believe that playing a sport makes you automatically good at skills like business management, asset evaluation, and market analysis.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t stop fans and even media from countering criticism with responses like “he knows better because he’s played the game and been around it his whole life!” Worse yet is the throwaway line from NHL insiders that “league source X appreciates player Z, so why don’t you?”. I’m sure he’s not the only one, but I’ve caught TSN’s Pierre LeBrun dropping this one a couple of times concerning Gudbranson lately, most recently on Tuesday following the extension.

“I know what the analytics community says, they make some good points as well,” LeBrun told TSN’s Mike Halford and Jason Brough. “But all I can tell you is this. The first reaction I got from a rival GM yesterday when McKenzie put out the first parameters, was that he would do that in a heartbeat. And this is a playoff team.”

LeBrun very obviously expects this bit of information to be of great import and delivers it in a way as if it settles the matter. As if, because a general manager of a playoff team would pay  Gudbranson $12-million, that automatically makes it a wise move. Case closed.

Then there’s Mark Spector’s infamous, ill-advised, and widely mocked suggestion to “poll 200 hockey men” to get a concrete answer on a subject.

 

Now, I don’t always agree with the people that reject stats outright in favour of eye tests and instinct, but I can at least respect that they’re formulating their own opinion. Even if I don’t place the same value on specific traits, at least those people can defend their view using particular examples.

What I have trouble respecting is opinions that are formed solely by other people’s opinions: not just using an appeal to authority to justify your opinion but as the very basis of it. I believe that no idea should be above scrutiny, but before I get into that, I’d like to discuss why the opinions of hockey general managers, in particular, should be subject to reasonable scrutiny.

Hockey and Higher Education

Benning, like many NHL general managers, did not attend post-secondary school. Rather, he became a professional hockey player at the age of 18 and then dove directly into scouting immediately after his career ended. Is it possible that he learned a variety of business skills on the job? Sure it is. Does that mean that he’s objectively qualified to run a business worth nearly three-quarters of a billion dollars? Colour me skeptical.

I don’t mean to pick on Benning in particular. I’m sure he’s just doing what he thinks is best, using the tools he’s been given, and he can’t be faulted for taking a lucrative job offer in a field in which he has spent his entire life playing or working. Besides, this is par for the course in sports — or at least, in professional hockey.

Hockey, more than other of the other major North American professional sports that comprise The Big Four, keeps a remarkably tight in-group when it comes to management. According to some digging done by Jason Paul, the NHL easily has the highest proportion of former players among their league’s set of general managers.

 

While Major League Baseball has just one former MLB player in a GM seat (Seattle’s Jerry Dipoto) and the NBA has eight, the NHL’s collective general managers contain a whopping 19 former NHL players. (Note: I wound up with four fewer former NHL players-turned GM than Jason did, although three more had AHL experience.) Further, as Paul points out, the remaining general managers still have pretty strong ties to professional hockey.

Team	General manager	Highest Level of Hockey	Team	General manager	Highest Level of Hockey
Anaheim Ducks	Bob Murray	NHL	Nashville Predators	David Poile	AHL
Arizona Coyotes	John Chayka	BCHL	New Jersey Devils	Ray Shero	NCAA
Boston Bruins	Don Sweeney	NHL	New York Islanders	Garth Snow	NHL
Buffalo Sabres	Jason Botterill	NHL	New York Rangers	Jeff Gorton
Calgary Flames	Brad Treliving	AHL	Ottawa Senators	Pierre Dorion
Carolina Hurricanes	Ron Francis	NHL	Philadelphia Flyers	Ron Hextall	NHL
Chicago Blackhawks	Stan Bowman		Pittsburgh Penguins	Jim Rutherford	NHL
Colorado Avalanche	Joe Sakic	NHL	San Jose Sharks	Doug Wilson	NHL
Columbus Blue Jackets	Jarmo Kekalainen	NHL	St. Louis Blues	Doug Armstrong
Dallas Stars	Jim Nill	NHL	Tampa Bay Lightning	Steve Yzerman	NHL
Detroit Red Wings	Ken Holland	NHL	Toronto Maple Leafs	Lou Lamoriello	NCAA
Edmonton Oilers	Peter Chiarelli	NCAA	Vancouver Canucks	Jim Benning	NHL
Florida Panthers	Dale Tallon	NHL	Vegas Golden Knights	George McPhee	NHL
Los Angeles Kings	Rob Blake	NHL	Washington Capitals	Brian MacLellan	NHL
Minnesota Wild	Chuck Fletcher		Winnipeg Jets	Kevin Cheveldayoff	AHL
Montreal Canadiens	Marc Bergevin	NHL

Of the 12 that never played an NHL game, three played in the American League, and three more in the NCAA. John Chayka, now the strawman for what happens when analytics take a choke hold on a team, was once a promising player who made it to the BCHL before injuries forced him to change his plans.

That leaves five GM’s without any real competitive hockey experience, but four of them introduce another common theme: nepotism in hockey. Stan Bowman is the son of Scotty Bowman, the NHL’s greatest ever coach; Chuck Fletcher is the son of former NHL GM Cliff Fletcher; Doug Armstrong is the son of a Hall of Fame NHL linesman; and Pierre Dorion is the son of a former head scout of the Maple Leafs.

New York’s Jeff Gorton is truly the odd man out: he went to university, then received a master’s degree in sports management, and has been working in the NHL since 1992. Seriously, the odd man out is the one with a master’s degree in sports management.

This research reminded me of an article by Sean McIndoe (a.k.a. DownGoesBrown) on Grantland a few years ago, and although the infographic below is now out of date, most of the overarching themes remain the system: the big bosses in hockey have deep roots in that sport.

Here’s where it gets even stranger, at least from my perspective, and ties back into what we were initially discussing: higher education. 26 of the 30 general managers in the NBA attended post-secondary school. In the MLB, a clean 30 out of 30 went to college for some period of time. Jason Paul didn’t have complete data on the NHL here, but from what I can gather, 15 of the 31 NHL GM’s have some college or university experience. Most of those are players who played NCAA hockey, with a couple of outsiders (John Chayka and Jeff Gorton) who studied sans competitive hockey. There are even a few with masters degrees, while Chiarelli earned himself a law degree.

The NHL has always been a bit slower to adapt to the education route compared to the other major spots. Consider this quote from George Kingston, the first coach of the San Jose Sharks and one of the founders of the NHL Coaches Association, on the evolution of coaching in hockey in a long-form article from Eric Duhatschek at the Globe and Mail last year:

What hockey in Canada missed in its evolution was what baseball, basketball and football had – the education route. All three of those other sports were played in the schools. Hockey, in the 1950s, was played outside of the schools. The other sports had coaches and leaders who were also teachers and wrote books about their sports. That was not part of the tradition of hockey.

Even though nearly a third of NHL players now come from the NCAA, that route has long been the primary non-professional league in other sports, versus the likes of the CHL in hockey, which not only isn’t coupled with education but actively prevents admission to the NCAA. And while the CHL is now doing better by its players with respect to education, that wasn’t the case 20 or 30 years ago, when some of these general managers were passing through: a time when coaches or managers might be as likely as not to encourage players to drop out of school to more effectively focus on hockey.

Again, I should stress that the point here isn’t to shame any of the current GM’s who didn’t have the opportunity of higher education, but merely to point out that a good portion of these people may lack training in areas that would be fundamental requirements in any other type of business. Does this mean that they have no idea what they’re doing? Absolutely not. But it also provides substantial evidence that they aren’t infallible.

Management that got where they are because they played the game rather than because they received professional education are always going to be predisposed to listening to their instincts and anecdotal opinions of like-minded allies over the reasoned conclusions of outsiders. It’s why hockey management groups often seem to be employing group-think strategies that appear as echo chambers, directly in contravention with what you see in the business world, where opposition fosters growth and development.

Sports management is never going to be functional without people who are intimately familiar with the sport, and there is always going to be a need for front office staff that can relate directly with the players on the ice. But the time may soon be coming when the NHL as an entity realizes that they don’t need liaisons at the top of the pyramid, where there is so much more going on that just understanding the game. The introduction of programs like the Business of Hockey Institute at Athabasca University, home of the world’s first hockey specific MBA program, could open doors for academic and business minded individuals to rise through the ranks of NHL offices in the near future.

A Healthy Dose of Skepticism

So, my advice to the likes of Lebrun is this: come up with your own conclusions on players. I understand that insiders traffic in the comments of others, but there is a massive difference in usefulness between “what are team executives going to do?” and “what do team executives think of this individual player?”. I don’t know the quality of the source from which the information is coming from (nor would I expect to have it revealed, I know how the game works). Is this source the scout that found Jamie Benn in the fifth round? Or is he one of the scouts responsible for the Canucks’ draft in 2007 that brought them exactly zero NHL games played.

And should it even matter whose opinion it was? Even those with immaculate records are capable of overvaluing or undervaluing players, traits, et cetera. I come from a discipline where you’re taught never to take what you hear or read at face value. That’s why, even though a textbook might be written by a man or woman with a PhD, every assertion inside the book is given a citation to peer-reviewed research. No authority is so great that their opinion should go entirely unscrutinized, even if that opinion is within their field of expertise.

So no, at no point will I ever be satisfied with an appeal to the authority of Hockey Men™. Never will I immediately accept that NHL GM’s know better than me on a particular subject because they get paid to do it, and I’m just a lowly blogger. Do they know more about the intricacies of the sport and the psychology of the players than I do? Most likely. But that won’t stop me from asking questions and levying criticisms when I see fit. Frankly, any executive that is unwilling or incapable of defending their position shouldn’t be trusted. And to his credit, Benning has never, to my knowledge, taken offence to being asked to justify his actions (even if we aren’t always satisfied with his defence), so it mystifies me that some fans and some media members get their backs up when a GM’s moves are criticized.

In the end, the results will speak for themselves, and all of us will either be proven wrong or right. In the meantime, I strongly advise that everyone think for themselves, come to your own conclusions, enjoy the public discourse, and stop using the opinions of authority figures as conclusive evidence

 

[TheGuardian_]

The three cup runs by the Canucks, the teams were led by management that had higher education and degrees and experience.

[butters]

1 hour ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I hope that was stated in humour, it is not nice to speak of the dead like that. And he had quite a following .

 

You probably dislike Raif Mair as well eh? He did the same thing only on a different subject. 

nope dead serious. Do I have to lie cuz he's dead? He was a professional sports troll. Sean Hannity has a big following too.. doesn't make what he does any better.

 

[PhillipBlunt]

3 minutes ago, butters said:

nope dead serious. Do I have to lie cuz he's dead? He was a professional sports troll. Sean Hannity has a big following too.. doesn't make what he does any better.

 

Once someone dies, they are off limits to any kind of critique, only praise.

[butters]

4 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Once someone dies, they are off limits to any kind of critique, only praise.

I think I get it. Hitler was a half decent artist, not much to say about him otherwise.

[PhillipBlunt]

Just now, butters said:

I think I get it. Hitler was a half decent artist, not much to say about him otherwise.

Stalin = Fun loving guy with a fantastic mustache

 

[spook007]

4 hours ago, Toews said:

Media personalities are not supposed to "represent the feelings of the fans". I am going to listen to the guy that I think is honest and has something of intelligence to contribute, not someone who is going to pander to the "feelings of our fans".   

The thing is... how do you know if he is honest?

Already here on CDC its easy to see that the people standing up for various media personalities (cheepers had to write that a few times), and normally the one promoting the views of these fans.

Fans who'd like to see JB sacked will believe anything certain writer write, and vice verse...

 

But it is almost as if the local press don't even want a team in Vancouver. Constant whining and unhappiness with everything Canucks.

You would think they would look at Canucks fair or favourably as it is the team of the city, but they crap all over them all the times. 

WHY?