2nd Best Dman in 2018 Draft

[Gollumpus]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

Debatable that it's even past the top 2. 

 

This the crux of the matter IMO. Even finishing dead last is no guarantee of one of the top 3 picks with the new lotto rules. We could have finished dead last and still be picking 4th and not be getting an appreciably better (if it all) player than we are at 7.

 

Play to win, finish where you finish, draft where you draft. Scout and develop them to the best of your ability. Always try to improve.

And unless your team has several "Patrick White" type of drafts in a row, leave the 20/20 hindsight glasses at home.

 

                                                         regards,  G.

[oldnews]

On 5/1/2018 at 1:50 PM, riffraff said:

First two paragraphs I agree with entirely.

 

a solid experience/lesson for any new potential core player to be a part of.

 

i appreciate the level response first of all and from what I have seen so far the answer to my question/post is: no.

 

maybe that turns up later on draft day or after

 

my only concerns are that imo I think this franchise needs an NHL ready player from the draft at this point in time.

 

we have some great pieces and I support JB 100%.  The playoff performances (choke choke leafs) and lack thereof (oilers cough cough) have proven benning's strategy the way I see it.  But.......

 

what if boeser or bo have an average year or don't  take the next step?  All of the sudden the pressure on those two becomes immmense.  Let's face it: now that the sedins are gone, justified or not, like it or not, the offensive onus and culture of the team comes down to them.  I think an impact draft player alleviates some of that pressure or at least spreads it around.

 

but youre right in that any player out of the top 3 is a ?.

 

id like to see the selection be bpa fwiw.

It is a good point about the potential pressure on players like Horvat and Boeser to produce.

Watching them fairly closely in the second half of the season they did struggle, particularly with possession when facing top shutdown units and pairings.  However, a large part of that effect is lost with Boeser's sheerly lethal scoring ability - you can beat them in possession but he can neutralize that with that sniping ability.  Still, the 'secondary scoring' of the Sedins will be gone,  I may be a bit too optimistic, but I think players like Leipsic, Baertschi, Granlund, Virtanen, Goldobin, Gaudette can and should provide some secondary scoring.  I don't necessarily expect them to sustain the kind of production the Sedins did, perhaps they can between them, but at the same time I think the team will be harder to play against, more difficult to score against with those players taking more significant roles (relative to the departing Sedins) - so there is a possibility it's a relative wash, even if their is less scoring (perhaps at both ends of the ice).

It is a pretty solid argument though for trying to add a veteran forward to the top 6 to compement the younger group.  (I think the Sutter line still provides the shutdown element and a bit of scoring - and perhaps a veteran 4C could also help a young top 6, but you make a good case for looking to add to the young top 6.

[189lb enforcers?]

12 hours ago, oldnews said:

It is a good point about the potential pressure on players like Horvat and Boeser to produce.

Watching them fairly closely in the second half of the season they did struggle, particularly with possession when facing top shutdown units and pairings.  However, a large part of that effect is lost with Boeser's sheerly lethal scoring ability - you can beat them in possession but he can neutralize that with that sniping ability.  Still, the 'secondary scoring' of the Sedins will be gone,  I may be a bit too optimistic, but I think players like Leipsic, Baertschi, Granlund, Virtanen, Goldobin, Gaudette can and should provide some secondary scoring.  I don't necessarily expect them to sustain the kind of production the Sedins did, perhaps they can between them, but at the same time I think the team will be harder to play against, more difficult to score against with those players taking more significant roles (relative to the departing Sedins) - so there is a possibility it's a relative wash, even if their is less scoring (perhaps at both ends of the ice).

It is a pretty solid argument though for trying to add a veteran forward to the top 6 to compement the younger group.  (I think the Sutter line still provides the shutdown element and a bit of scoring - and perhaps a veteran 4C could also help a young top 6, but you make a good case for looking to add to the young top 6.

Meh, give Brock and Bo some PMD and it would have been different. 

[oldnews]

3 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Meh, give Brock and Bo some PMD and it would have been different. 

yes, but that's easy to say.

and will the team have a pmd next year?   not likely, unless Juolevi breaks out - and while being a good puck mover, you wouldn't necessarily identify him as a prototypical "pmd".

Even if their 7th overall alligns with a BPA pmd, it'll probably be a draft+ situation before the team has that element (in a higher upside form than they presently do with players like Pouliot or Stecher).

So while I agree with you, it doesn't really substitute/alter riffraff's point.

 

My perspective is that I believe they have enough young forward talent to test next year - so I'm not as concerned about pressure on Boeser, Horvat (or attached to results) - and think they could effectively support the young top 6 with players outside the top 6.  So my 'plan' would be to add a second veteran shutdown/faceoff center to the mix, to come in behind Sutter and generate some territory to make life easier on the younger players.  I think with Sutter, Gaunce, Motte, Eriksson, Archie (possibly Granny although I'd have him centering a couple young forwards in my 'scheme') - those guys with the addition of a solid center, the bottom six might be effective enough to relieve some pressure on the young forwards by virtue of playing effective shutdown and generating ozone starts....  It's still going to be a significant test, but that's inevitable.  I'm not sure there will be many viable top 6 forwards in the free agent market and I'm not sure the team lacks young scoring talent, so it will be interesting to see what the team does on July 1st.  My sense is that barring a guy (ie Kane) really determined to come here, it'll be a mid tier guy at most, and possibly just a bottom six (probably my preference).

 

[AK_19]

I thought this was an interesting video comparing Dobson vs. Bouchard:
 

 

[Vinny in Vancouver]

5 hours ago, AK_19 said:

I thought this was an interesting video comparing Dobson vs. Bouchard:
 

 

I always like the guys' assessment - I think it's quite fair. I'm ok with any one of: Dobson, Hughes, Boqvist, Tkachuk, Wahlstrom. If we get somebody else, then I'll have to trust Benning - in all honesty, I was higher on Glass and Mittelstadt than Pettersson last year.

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, AK_19 said:

I thought this was an interesting video comparing Dobson vs. Bouchard:
 

 

Good video thanks for posting..it's obvious watching it he likes Dobson more and that French is his first language, the OHL is a better league, and not as high scoring as Dobsons league...liked the end when they compared clutch ability when outside of their teams and Bouchard still piling up the points with the best in his age group.   Two months doesn't make a difference, they are two months apart, give Dobson two months more to skate etc. and I still don't think hes the right pick, although id be stoked to have Dobson too.  He's a great skater.  Bouchard isn't, except for backwards skating which is exceptional.   IMO he could be running our first unit PP next year if we get him...his skating will improve over time and he's already got the best point shot in the draft (voted best in his conference), and the best passing in the draft.    He's a 50-60point defenseman waiting to happen, something we've never had on a long term basis.

 

Dobson could also be a very good defenseman, needs at least a year, maybe two of development first, where as Bouchard is ready now.  I liked that he rated their physicality as a tie, neither of them is Weber 2.0 in that category and there is some misinformation on this site that Dobson is a beast (plays a rough, tough game) which he most definitely does not.  Both are average in this category, don't throw heavy hits constantly (but do and can), but should be fine at this at the NHL level, especially as they continue to add muscles.

 

 

[TGokou]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

Good video thanks for posting..it's obvious watching it he likes Dobson more and that French is his first language, the OHL is a better league, and not as high scoring as Dobsons league...liked the end when they compared clutch ability when outside of their teams and Bouchard still piling up the points with the best in his age group.   Two months doesn't make a difference, they are two months apart, give Dobson two months more to skate etc. and I still don't think hes the right pick, although id be stoked to have Dobson too.  He's a great skater.  Bouchard isn't, except for backwards skating which is exceptional.   IMO he could be running our first unit PP next year if we get him...his skating will improve over time and he's already got the best point shot in the draft (voted best in his conference), and the best passing in the draft.    He's a 50-60point defenseman waiting to happen, something we've never had on a long term basis.

 

Dobson could also be a very good defenseman, needs at least a year, maybe two of development first, where as Bouchard is ready now.  I liked that he rated their physicality as a tie, neither of them is Weber 2.0 in that category and there is some misinformation on this site that Dobson is a beast (plays a rough, tough game) which he most definitely does not.  Both are average in this category, don't throw heavy hits constantly (but do and can), but should be fine at this at the NHL level, especially as they continue to add muscles.

 

 

I personally prefer Dobson myself. The video's assessments are pretty bang on for the most part but I like the part where he says all the goals scored in front of the net likely won't be translatable due to his poor skating (as in he won't have the same opportunities in the NHL) and I agree. When comparing their goal production from the point and above the circles they are about equal. Also they don't mention it in the video but Bouchard's regular minutes per game is 35 min while Dobson is only 25 min which would make a huge difference in point inflation for Bouchard. If anything their point production is actually equal after factoring in minutes per game and average league scoring. However once you factor in how much better Dobson is defensively there is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be ahead of Bouchard. Also with Dobsons better skating it completely fits the new NHL as teams need to be able to defend the transition game. If Bouchard was on the ice it would likely lead to too many goals against on the transition due to his lack of skating and his tendency to jump into the rush. If the coach told Bouchard that he won't be able to jump into the rush as often then you've neutralized half of Bouchards game.

[IBatch]

14 minutes ago, TGokou said:

I personally prefer Dobson myself. The video's assessments are pretty bang on for the most part but I like the part where he says all the goals scored in front of the net likely won't be translatable due to his poor skating (as in he won't have the same opportunities in the NHL) and I agree. When comparing their goal production from the point and above the circles they are about equal. Also they don't mention it in the video but Bouchard's regular minutes per game is 35 min while Dobson is only 25 min which would make a huge difference in point inflation for Bouchard. If anything their point production is actually equal after factoring in minutes per game and average league scoring. However once you factor in how much better Dobson is defensively there is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be ahead of Bouchard. Also with Dobsons better skating it completely fits the new NHL as teams need to be able to defend the transition game. If Bouchard was on the ice it would likely lead to too many goals against on the transition due to his lack of skating and his tendency to jump into the rush. If the coach told Bouchard that he won't be able to jump into the rush as often then you've neutralized half of Bouchards game

The video was ok, but it's not a an actual scouting report, are you agreeing with it because it's compelling ( I doubt the author spent actual time watching London's games) or have you spent time reading what the scouts actually say.  I believe he's started the skating comparison by saying "Bouchard is a good skater" and later went on to say he can skate backward as good as anyone.  If you watch video you will notice he's skating in on those odd man rushes as fast as the other guy, if you break in you've caught someone, he's not so slow that the guy he's caught can stop, turn around kick off, accelerate and catch him.  It's one bloggers opinion, I will stick to Bob McKenzie and THN analysis which both come from the average of ten expert scouts, I've yet to see Dobson ahead of Bouchard on any significant list.  Because he's a special player, controls the pace of a game with his IQ, passing ability and can score goals from the point AND infront of the net because he creates 2 on 1s rushing the puck.  Considering also the lack of star power London has now makes it more impressive.  Dobson would be nice too, but it's like comparing Laine and Puljajarvi, one went ahead of the other because he scored more, and was more NHL ready, I'd expect the same this year with these two.  Personally I think Hughes is better than Dobson too, and that would have been a better video comparison as they are closer in most rankings (THN most recent as of a week ago has Hughes at 6, Bouchard 7, Whalstrom 8, Dobson 9 for BPA ranking).  Yes he's a better skater, but so was Hedican, the NHLs current obsession about how fast a guy can skate is getting tiresome.   That said you could be absolutely bang on.  Or wrong.  I'm going with the experts, but I do like Dobson too.

 

[Ihatetomatoes]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

The video was ok, but it's not a an actual scouting report, are you agreeing with it because it's compelling ( I doubt the author spent actual time watching London's games) or have you spent time reading what the scouts actually say.  I believe he's started the skating comparison by saying "Bouchard is a good skater" and later went on to say he can skate backward as good as anyone.  If you watch video you will notice he's skating in on those odd man rushes as fast as the other guy, if you break in you've caught someone, he's not so slow that the guy he's caught can stop, turn around kick off, accelerate and catch him.  It's one bloggers opinion, I will stick to Bob McKenzie and THN analysis which both come from the average of ten expert scouts, I've yet to see Dobson ahead of Bouchard on any significant list.  Because he's a special player, controls the pace of a game with his IQ, passing ability and can score goals from the point AND infront of the net because he creates 2 on 1s rushing the puck.  Considering also the lack of star power London has now makes it more impressive.  Dobson would be nice too, but it's like comparing Laine and Puljajarvi, one went ahead of the other because he scored more, and was more NHL ready, I'd expect the same this year with these two.  Personally I think Hughes is better than Dobson too, and that would have been a better video comparison as they are closer in most rankings (THN most recent as of a week ago has Hughes at 6, Bouchard 7, Whalstrom 8, Dobson 9 for BPA ranking).  Yes he's a better skater, but so was Hedican, the NHLs current obsession about how fast a guy can skate is getting tiresome.   That said you could be absolutely bang on.  Or wrong.  I'm going with the experts, but I do like Dobson too.

 

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2018-draft/2018-nhl-draft-rankings

 

I see Dobson ahead of Bouchard 5 times out of 15.  So while Bouchard is definitely the consensus better pick there are a fair amount of people that consider Dobson the better pick.  Or maybe you don't see those people as significant

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Ihatetomatoes said:

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2018-draft/2018-nhl-draft-rankings

 

I see Dobson ahead of Bouchard 5 times out of 15.  So while Bouchard is definitely the consensus better pick there are a fair amount of people that consider Dobson the better pick.  Or maybe you don't see those people as significant

It sounds like 10 to 5 for Bouchard.  Wouldn’t consensus mean all 15?  

[Ihatetomatoes]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

It sounds like 10 to 5 for Bouchard.  Wouldn’t consensus mean all 15?  

I don't think so.  On average Bouchard is higher ranked making him the consensus better pick.  Maybe I don't understand the definition of consensus?

 

Edit: 

con·sen·sus

kənˈsensəs/

noun

 

1. general agreement.

    

    

   I think I'm right

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Ihatetomatoes said:

I don't think so.  On average Bouchard is higher ranked making him the consensus better pick.  Maybe I don't understand the definition of consensus?

I think it means everyone agrees.  I don’t think all the scouts really do agree on anyone player, except Dahlin.  That’s why I think we will get a player at 7, who could likely turn out better than the guy drafted at 2.  It’s a very flat draft after Dahlin.  

[higgyfan]

45 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I think it means everyone agrees.  I don’t think all the scouts really do agree on anyone player, except Dahlin.  That’s why I think we will get a player at 7, who could likely turn out better than the guy drafted at 2.  It’s a very flat draft after Dahlin.  

Yeah, the rankings I've looked at are all over the place for the top 10 picks.  I think the Canucks have a super chance to add a very good player to their prospect pool.

[TGokou]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

The video was ok, but it's not a an actual scouting report, are you agreeing with it because it's compelling ( I doubt the author spent actual time watching London's games) or have you spent time reading what the scouts actually say.  I believe he's started the skating comparison by saying "Bouchard is a good skater" and later went on to say he can skate backward as good as anyone.  If you watch video you will notice he's skating in on those odd man rushes as fast as the other guy, if you break in you've caught someone, he's not so slow that the guy he's caught can stop, turn around kick off, accelerate and catch him.  It's one bloggers opinion, I will stick to Bob McKenzie and THN analysis which both come from the average of ten expert scouts, I've yet to see Dobson ahead of Bouchard on any significant list.  Because he's a special player, controls the pace of a game with his IQ, passing ability and can score goals from the point AND infront of the net because he creates 2 on 1s rushing the puck.  Considering also the lack of star power London has now makes it more impressive.  Dobson would be nice too, but it's like comparing Laine and Puljajarvi, one went ahead of the other because he scored more, and was more NHL ready, I'd expect the same this year with these two.  Personally I think Hughes is better than Dobson too, and that would have been a better video comparison as they are closer in most rankings (THN most recent as of a week ago has Hughes at 6, Bouchard 7, Whalstrom 8, Dobson 9 for BPA ranking).  Yes he's a better skater, but so was Hedican, the NHLs current obsession about how fast a guy can skate is getting tiresome.   That said you could be absolutely bang on.  Or wrong.  I'm going with the experts, but I do like Dobson too.

 

I agreed because it was based on my general opinion formed by taking into consideration all scouting reports available as well as factoring in my own form of analytics. I don't watch the games, nor do I claim to but I form most of my opinions based on my analytics, followed by what I feel is translateable. It is common knowledge that Bouchard's footspeed is inferior to Dobsons and while it may be less than a second that is huge in the grand scheme of things. Based on the video that's floating around where it compares McDavids, Dobsons and Bouchards speed (assuming it is accurate) it also shows Dobsons acceleration from stop to be much better than Bouchard. So while Bouchards top end speed may be 'fast' his acceleration is not and that is important when defending against a transition where the defender is caught flat-footed at the blueline and needs to get back quickly. As one poster already mentioned, Bouchard may be the consensus pick but that doesn't make him the better player. If consensus was always accurate then we wouldn't need opinions or scouting. Also Benning doesn't usually follow consensus and it's worked out fine for him (although some would disagree).

[CanucksJay]

On 2018-05-18 at 6:42 PM, AK_19 said:

I thought this was an interesting video comparing Dobson vs. Bouchard:
 

 

Who has better hockey IQ? 

I think that's what will end up separating the 2nd best D-man from the rest of the pack. 

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, TGokou said:

I agreed because it was based on my general opinion formed by taking into consideration all scouting reports available as well as factoring in my own form of analytics. I don't watch the games, nor do I claim to but I form most of my opinions based on my analytics, followed by what I feel is translateable. It is common knowledge that Bouchard's footspeed is inferior to Dobsons and while it may be less than a second that is huge in the grand scheme of things. Based on the video that's floating around where it compares McDavids, Dobsons and Bouchards speed (assuming it is accurate) it also shows Dobsons acceleration from stop to be much better than Bouchard. So while Bouchards top end speed may be 'fast' his acceleration is not and that is important when defending against a transition where the defender is caught flat-footed at the blueline and needs to get back quickly. As one poster already mentioned, Bouchard may be the consensus pick but that doesn't make him the better player. If consensus was always accurate then we wouldn't need opinions or scouting. Also Benning doesn't usually follow consensus and it's worked out fine for him (although some would disagree).

So really, you actually read all the scouting reports?  Where do you get those anyways e-bay?  More fluff from the video.  That's ok, I agree Dobson is a better skater, I disagree that half Bouchard's production doesn't count because he can't skate as fast though.  Wouldn't that make it even harder to get points?  One would think.

 

I remember the last class is this chocked full of defenseman it was all about whether Doughty or Bogosian should go first defenseman.   Well LA sure got that one right...or not really because they didn't go off board and pick Karlsson, and ATL left Pietrangelo and Calder winner Myers (both average skater BTW) on the board.    So don't take to get too much into whatever source you have that makes up your mind on these guys, there are lots of  Anglophone videos about Bouchard that is very convincing.  One of these guys, or both could be either disappointing or exceed expectations.  I'm going with the second guy in the last decade to be on the top ten in OHL scoring, with the best pass and arguably the best shot in the draft, although id be pretty stoked to have Dobson too.

[TGokou]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

So really, you actually read all the scouting reports?  Where do you get those anyways e-bay?  More fluff from the video.  That's ok, I agree Dobson is a better skater, I disagree that half Bouchard's production doesn't count because he can't skate as fast though.  Wouldn't that make it even harder to get points?  One would think.

 

I remember the last class is this chocked full of defenseman it was all about whether Doughty or Bogosian should go first defenseman.   Well LA sure got that one right...or not really because they didn't go off board and pick Karlsson, and ATL left Pietrangelo and Calder winner Myers (both average skater BTW) on the board.    So don't take to get too much into whatever source you have that makes up your mind on these guys, there are lots of  Anglophone videos about Bouchard that is very convincing.  One of these guys, or both could be either disappointing or exceed expectations.  I'm going with the second guy in the last decade to be on the top ten in OHL scoring, with the best pass and arguably the best shot in the draft, although id be pretty stoked to have Dobson too.

I'm not sure how attacking my character helps you in any way. I read what's publically available without paywall and can form my own opinion just like anyone else here. I'm not saying I'm right, but it is an educated opinion and not just spewing what everyone else says or who everyone agrees with. As for the point about half his production doesn't count, I didn't say that. I just said that it would harder to accomplish at the next level because of his skating. He is able to do it now because the quality of competition is much lower where his skating is enough that he can make those plays. At a higher level where transitions are quicker and there's less time and space, Bouchard 'may not' have the skating ability, or the coach's trust to jump into the play as often as he does. By the way, the last class to have this many defencemen was NOT the one you mentioned, it was 2012 and go and look and tell me that the best player available is also the best defenceman...it was not.

 

Just for clarification, I'm not saying Bouchard is a bad pick just that I think overall Dobson is the better defenceman...and not necesssarily by much. 

[Baggins]

On 5/19/2018 at 7:50 PM, Ihatetomatoes said:

I don't think so.  On average Bouchard is higher ranked making him the consensus better pick.  Maybe I don't understand the definition of consensus?

 

Edit: 

con·sen·sus

kənˈsensəs/

noun

 

1. general agreement.

    

    

   I think I'm right

Definition of consensus

1 a : general agreement : unanimity

• the consensus of their opinion, based on reports … from the border
• —John Hersey

b : the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned

• the consensus was to go ahead

 

It's the second definition really. A consensus is also a majority rule.

[IBatch]

21 hours ago, TGokou said:

I'm not sure how attacking my character helps you in any way. I read what's publically available without paywall and can form my own opinion just like anyone else here. I'm not saying I'm right, but it is an educated opinion and not just spewing what everyone else says or who everyone agrees with. As for the point about half his production doesn't count, I didn't say that. I just said that it would harder to accomplish at the next level because of his skating. He is able to do it now because the quality of competition is much lower where his skating is enough that he can make those plays. At a higher level where transitions are quicker and there's less time and space, Bouchard 'may not' have the skating ability, or the coach's trust to jump into the play as often as he does. By the way, the last class to have this many defencemen was NOT the one you mentioned, it was 2012 and go and look and tell me that the best player available is also the best defenceman...it was not.

 

Just for clarification, I'm not saying Bouchard is a bad pick just that I think overall Dobson is the better defenceman...and not necesssarily by much. 

Bad days happen, your right sometimes my thumbs don't filter out what I'm thinking.  I don't have access to NHL teams scouting reports which made wonder how you did, or privy to whatever your personal analytics as you said, might be which got my ire up .  Just what ISCS has to say, THN, and the standard media guru's opinions.  Wish I did though that would be skokum.  No worries your right I was being a dick, sorry bro we are all on the same side.