[Discussion] Canucks 2018-19 blueline

[burrardstreetbullies]

after wanting to vomit several times from one of the weakest blue lines in the league and one lacking total leadership. how will big Jim turn it around this summer? unless hutton doubles his cardio this summer and grows a set of nuts i highly doubt he will make it past November this yea.              but in all reality if jimmy can magically sign this guy who has currently been a bum https://www.nhl.com/player/mike-green-8471242  

to a reasonable 2-3 year contract for the epoch of his career then i would be happy. because like i said this blue line needs a no1 d-man or close too it, edler will never be that same with guddy and del zotto.     drop your thoughts in the thread below

[diesel_3]

Note: Tags are mandatory only in the Trades, Rumours, Signings forum and in the Proposals and Armchair GM'ing forum.

[RetroCanuck]

First off, don't forget to tag [Proposal]

 

Blueline isn't going to magically turn around and we should be worried about our blueline 3-4 years down the road when we are competitive again. we wont be making the playoffs next year so we may as well bring in some vets on one year deals and flip them at the deadline. Green might be a fit short term if we give him more money. Personally this is how I would do it over the next year.

 

Trade Hutton and Tanev (gets you at least a 1st)

Draft D with your 1st's and 2nd's

Sign Green at 6.5M for 3 years

Put Juolevi in Utica to start and have a D lineup of

Edler-Green

Pouliot-Stetcher

Del Zotto-Guddy

McEneny/Sautner-Biega

At the deadline trade Del Zotto and/or Edler

Bring up Juolevi or McEneny/Sautner or Brisebois.

Play out season, hope for another high pick and guys like McEneny, Guddy, Pouliot prove they are not only everyday NHL players but can play in the top 4.

 

[teepain]

Our blueline has no offense

changes need to be made

 

[Where's Wellwood]

I'd trade Tanev before too long because of declining value with age and injury, but trading Hutton at an all time low in value isn't smart. 

 

Give him till at least next TDL to see if this Summer makes a difference in him and if not, his value won't fall much lower

[khay]

Remaking defence has to be done with care. If you do it in a rush and you end up with an average defence, and that will get you no where near the cup. See Toronto Maple Leafs for example. Their rebuilding years are done and they are too good to get a high draft pick. There really isn't many ways for them to add a high caliber defenceman to the lineup except through UFA, which can screw up their cap structure with Matthews, Marner, and other young players needing a huge increase in salary.

 

I think Jim has one more season to evaluate Hutton, Stecher, and Pouliot in more detail. Now that each of them has had one season under Green, they know what to expect and it should be fun to see these guys compete for ice time and to see who will rise. My guess is at least one of them will rise up and become a consistent top 4 in 2018-19. Jim also has to evaluate Juolevi, Sautner, Briesbois, McEneny, and other defence prospects are at before deciding what moves to make. it also depends on who we get in 2018 draft. Dahlin? Boqvist? Bouchard? Jim will also need to take into account what Tryamkin intends to do. He should be in communication with Tryamkin on his plans after 2018-19 season.

 

So, I think the best course of action in the offseason is to go after nobody in the UFA. Carlson is indeed enticing but any production in UFA year needs to be taken with a grain of salt. He has been a near 40 point player and if we sign him to a long term deal, that's what we should expect and not 60 points. And signing him to a longer term deal limits what we can do in 2019 off season.

 

Also, having a mediocre defence for 2018-19 season allows us to get one more high draft pick, which can help with the rebuild. the 4th season without the playoffs is fine as long as we get exciting hockey to watch.

 

My guess is that Stecher will rise up and become a top 4 in 2018-19 season. With Hutton and Pouliot having an outside chance as well. Juolevi will be ready by 2019-2020 season. And say Tryamkin decides to come back, then for 2019-2020 season, we will have

 

Tanev

Juolevi

Tryamkin

Stecher

Gudbranson

One of Sautner/McEneny/Briesbois/Chatfield

Maybe one of Hutton/Pouliot

2018 draft pick may be ready (if it is Dahlin, for sure ready)

 

As it happens, 2019 UFA market features Doughty, Karlsson, OEL, Myers, McDonagh, Ellis, Edler, Hjalmarsson, Shmidt and on.

 

Taking all this into account, we can make a better decision on how to improve our defence compared to the information that is available now (2018 off season). We can make smart decisions on players like Edler who will be a UFA and Tanev who will be a UFA in 2020 to help address needs up front if needed, and which UFA to throw money at.

 

I think what we do in 2019 offseason can be separated into two scenarios:

 

1. We win Dahlin.

2. We don't win Dahlin.

 

We win Dahlin, we can re-sign Edler at a reasonable cap hit or sign an equivalent player to form a capable second pairing to help the top pairing of Dahlin-Tryamkin or Juolevi-Dahlin, or Dahlin-Tanev.

 

If we don't win Dahlin, then we go after Doughty, Karlsson, and OEL. Throw some money at them, show that we have an up and coming and very promising team. We land one then it would be a similarly good outcome as winning Dahlin. If we get say Doughty or Karlsson, we can sign Edler as well at say 5 mil, and trade Tanev and Gudbranson to get help up front.

 

Juolevi-Doughty/Karlsson

Edler-Tryamkin

Sautner-Stecher

 

That top pairing will move puck like mad. That second pairing will defend and move puck very well. Tryamkin can move puck well as we saw last season. Sautner has shown that he is very dependable and Stecher is a feisty guy. Stecher is a pretty unique player. He defends in the offensive and neutral zone first. Like he starts defending very early and prevents the puck from entering the defensive zone. It would be interesting to see how he develops.

 

[Nucker 67]

Don't want Doughty, can't stand that guy. Plus, he'll want to be overpaid (or paid what he thinks he deserves) 

 

Canucks have a few decent D, and next year they'll get a chance to show if they deserve a spot. I am really hoping Hutton takes it to heart what he needs to do, and he works hard. If not, then he's gone. Tanev should be traded, because he doesn't do the team much good sitting injured in the press box for half a season. I would still like the Canucks to try and get Honka from DAL. Maybe Juolevi makes the team? Maybe Sautner and Brisebois take another step? Maybe they draft Dahlin? lol Can always hope.

[JM_]

So you want to sign an aging player who you think as 'been a bum' and thats going to provide 'total leadership' and fix the d group? 

 

There's no point to sign more middle-pairing D, we have lots of that. We need to wait and see what the draft brings. 

[JeremyCuddles]

Dahlin's comin', just simmer down. Then Boqvist will drop all the way to our second round pick. Reinforcements are on the way.

[kloubek]

Personally, I don't think that even with an improved d we are any better than a cusp playoff team next year, and that's probably being generous.

This was discussed with aGENT and I in another thread, but the fact is that our D isn't really that bad.  The issue is that we are expecting all our guys to play a pairing higher than they really should be and we don't have a #1 guy to actually put up significant points from back there.  Let's look at the d individually:

First, the guys who will be on the team for sure:

Edler - Had a bit of a comeback year.  Not a #1 d, but is expected to play like one.  He needs to drop to 2nd pairing where I think he would excel.

Stecher - Has obvious talent and mobility, but hasn't figured out how to be an offensive contributor yet.  Needs to play in the NHL to gain the experience required to maybe be that guy. Bottom pairing.

Gudbranson - Ah, the enigma that is Gudbranson.  In a way, I wish we had traded him but we have him.  Physical, sure, but doesn't hit as much as he should and doesn't bring a lot to the table outside that.  Bottom pairing.

MDZ - Is a hitting machine, and better than most people give him credit for.  Still, on a good team, he's a #4 guy at best..

Tanev - Much maligned, but an excellent shutdown guy when healthy.  Fantastic #2 *complimentary* player.

 

Then, the question marks:

Pouliot - Needs to find consistency and massively improve his defensive game.  Could be decent, but I'm not confident.

Hutton - Needs a good offseason.  Still potential here, but he was pretty awful for us this season.

Juolevi - Nobody really knows.  May make the team, and perhaps SHOULD make the team, but nobody knows. If he does, expect sheltered minutes.

Biega - Great as a 7th/8th guy and he knows it.  Not much else there but I do love his hitting.

Sautner - Showed well, but needs to take huge steps to be an NHL regular.  Only including him as he saw a few games with us.

 

If we had better goaltending, better defensiveness out of our forwards (mainly the Sedins and they are gone now), along with a remotely healthy lineup we'd actually be above average defensively.  That isn't bad for a rebuilding team. 

What we really need is scoring.  Yes, we could try to get Green but he's aging a bit and already declining so if we did pick him up I wouldn't want more than a couple of years.  I'd rather go for Carlson (who may or may not be worth the money he will get if he goes UFA) or more specifically target a couple of UFAs next season.  There is no need to blow our load on d right now.  

 

Combine this with the improvement of our young guys and the draft, and I think our D will be in at least decent shape in a year or two. And say we did happen to by some hand of God win the lottery this season.  We'd end up with this pretty quickly:

Dahlin Tanev - One highly skilled offensive player paired with one of the best defensive defensemen in the league.
Edler Stecher - Secondary scoring pairing
MDZ Gudbranson - Crushing physical pairing
Juolevi

 

Doesn't look so bad, does it?

[theo5789]

I agree Edler is probably not a #1 D, but Green will solve the problems? Green's offensive production last year was basically the same as Edler's. I can guarantee you Edler was more physical as well. Edler makes some defensive errors, but you think Green will be any better? And now I'm seeing proposals to pay Green 6.5 million for 3 years yet I hear Edler is overpaid at 5 million? If we are going to be splashing money on a dman, might as well try Carlson, but even then I'm not too sure about that (he has a lot of high powered offense to work with).

 

The only ideal quick fix is if we win the Dahlin pick. Until then, we wait for Juolevi and possibly whatever pick this year and hope that at least one of Chatfield, Brisebois, etc ups their game to another level.

[Mike Vanderhoek]

10 hours ago, burrardstreetbullies said:

after wanting to vomit several times from one of the weakest blue lines in the league and one lacking total leadership. how will big Jim turn it around this summer? unless hutton doubles his cardio this summer and grows a set of nuts i highly doubt he will make it past November this yea.              but in all reality if jimmy can magically sign this guy who has currently been a bum https://www.nhl.com/player/mike-green-8471242  

to a reasonable 2-3 year contract for the epoch of his career then i would be happy. because like i said this blue line needs a no1 d-man or close too it, edler will never be that same with guddy and del zotto.     drop your thoughts in the thread below

First, your initial sentence is false if you believe that the team lacks total leadership on the blue line as Edler is probably the closest to Captain material on this team with exception of Horvat who may or may not be ready for that role of carrying the "C".

 

I think Edler is someone who is taken for granted in excess here on CDC, not sure why but gets the " Dana Murzyn treatment here " lol.

 

Mike Green as a veteran provides quality offensive ability for sure, something the Canucks could use without a doubt, but his defensive game is on par with guys like Edler for example already anyways. Yes they could throw north of $ 5m per season on a 2 year ? offer at Green, but with a diminished Free Agent pool this summer he will likely get higher compensation and longer term, the Canucks won't invest in longer term for someone over 30 years old, they've stated such already.

 

I would expect changes to be made via trade or building depth with well, depth players this off season. They can afford to keep drafting and work towards throwing a contract at a better option next Free Agency.

[Silky mitts]

10 hours ago, RetroCanuck said:

First off, don't forget to tag [Proposal]

 

Blueline isn't going to magically turn around and we should be worried about our blueline 3-4 years down the road when we are competitive again. we wont be making the playoffs next year so we may as well bring in some vets on one year deals and flip them at the deadline. Green might be a fit short term if we give him more money. Personally this is how I would do it over the next year.

 

Trade Hutton and Tanev (gets you at least a 1st)

Draft D with your 1st's and 2nd's

Sign Green at 6.5M for 3 years

Put Juolevi in Utica to start and have a D lineup of

Edler-Green

Pouliot-Stetcher

Del Zotto-Guddy

McEneny/Sautner-Biega

At the deadline trade Del Zotto and/or Edler

Bring up Juolevi or McEneny/Sautner or Brisebois.

Play out season, hope for another high pick and guys like McEneny, Guddy, Pouliot prove they are not only everyday NHL players but can play in the top 4.

 

No thanks to green especially at 6.5

[Rob_Zepp]

11 hours ago, burrardstreetbullies said:

after wanting to vomit several times from one of the weakest blue lines in the league and one lacking total leadership. how will big Jim turn it around this summer? unless hutton doubles his cardio this summer and grows a set of nuts i highly doubt he will make it past November this yea.              but in all reality if jimmy can magically sign this guy who has currently been a bum https://www.nhl.com/player/mike-green-8471242  

to a reasonable 2-3 year contract for the epoch of his career then i would be happy. because like i said this blue line needs a no1 d-man or close too it, edler will never be that same with guddy and del zotto.     drop your thoughts in the thread below

Wow, nice way to start a thread.

 

Anyway, you do realize that this "make you vomit" D only had its consensus top 4 together for about 1/4 of the season but when they were together the team was playing .600 hockey?   

 

If you put Edler/Stetcher/Guddy/Tanev up against many top end top 4s they are far from elite, but if that makes you vomit then that's on you as those four are all effective NHL Dmen who are far better than most of CDC will give them credit for.   

 

Good luck with the vomiting issue.    Perhaps you want to follow an elite D corp like Calgary and explain how they had worse defensive stats than Vancouver's top 4 vomit inducing group.

[6string]

2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Wow, nice way to start a thread.

 

Anyway, you do realize that this "make you vomit" D only had its consensus top 4 together for about 1/4 of the season but when they were together the team was playing .600 hockey?   

 

If you put Edler/Stetcher/Guddy/Tanev up against many top end top 4s they are far from elite, but if that makes you vomit then that's on you as those four are all effective NHL Dmen who are far better than most of CDC will give them credit for.   

 

Good luck with the vomiting issue.    Perhaps you want to follow an elite D corp like Calgary and explain how they had worse defensive stats than Vancouver's top 4 vomit inducing group.

Great finish ( elite D Calgary )!

[6string]

I think it's too soon to spend big on defense, but at some point a major move by trade or free agency will be necessary by the Demko is employed full time.

 

Is it possible one or two Demko's current roster of Dmen in front of him may be ready for the bigs in two seasons. I say hang on with the spending and sort out what we have via other means.

[aliboy]

I would be all in for signing a real offensive d-man like Green just to get things kick started, as long as it is within reason. We have to start getting more offense from the blueline and need someone to lead the charge. Beyond that I would go for trading Tanev and, if there's a buyer, Hutton also, just to give it a shake up.

 

Last year our defense gave us over 110 points, when the Nashville defense produce over 200 points.

[IBatch]

PHutton isn't really a problem, he should have a one year show me deal, if he can't make it then move on, if he improves sign him accordingly.

 

Our defense has more or less sucked as a group for five or six years.  Drafting a D at fifth in Juolevi was supposed to help as a key core piece going forward, but the best we should expect is Tanev 2.0, hopefully without the injuries.  

 

Benning will have to do another great draft this year to fast forward our defense, and likely look at overpaying for blue chip UFAs to improve our defense over the next two or three years, possibly even this summer.  We need another down year and the picks that go with it, with the Sedins retirement that shouldn't be a problem.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Wow, nice way to start a thread.

 

Anyway, you do realize that this "make you vomit" D only had its consensus top 4 together for about 1/4 of the season but when they were together the team was playing .600 hockey?   

 

If you put Edler/Stetcher/Guddy/Tanev up against many top end top 4s they are far from elite, but if that makes you vomit then that's on you as those four are all effective NHL Dmen who are far better than most of CDC will give them credit for.   

 

Good luck with the vomiting issue.    Perhaps you want to follow an elite D corp like Calgary and explain how they had worse defensive stats than Vancouver's top 4 vomit inducing group.

Or explain how Sbisa is an integral part of a group of guys left unprotected.  And to think the collective sigh of relief by a certain segment of the CDC who was worried about Gaunce.  A lot of belly aching over his contract, which he's more than earned.  When he's back Vegas will have another guy for their push...ha ha bye bye LA.

 

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, Mike Vanderhoek said:

First, your initial sentence is false if you believe that the team lacks total leadership on the blue line as Edler is probably the closest to Captain material on this team with exception of Horvat who may or may not be ready for that role of carrying the "C".

 

I think Edler is someone who is taken for granted in excess here on CDC, not sure why but gets the " Dana Murzyn treatment here " lol.

 

Mike Green as a veteran provides quality offensive ability for sure, something the Canucks could use without a doubt, but his defensive game is on par with guys like Edler for example already anyways. Yes they could throw north of $ 5m per season on a 2 year ? offer at Green, but with a diminished Free Agent pool this summer he will likely get higher compensation and longer term, the Canucks won't invest in longer term for someone over 30 years old, they've stated such already.

 

I would expect changes to be made via trade or building depth with well, depth players this off season. They can afford to keep drafting and work towards throwing a contract at a better option next Free Agency.

Dana Murzyn treatment lol.  Skated like both skates were filled with cement, but often was at or near the top +-, and would always answer the bell, even when if it often meant getting hammered.  Character guy...