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[Value Of] Horvat - To build a contender.


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1 minute ago, khay said:

I get what you mean but I don't like the idea.

 

First, if the management team met with Tavares and proposed your plan, where Horvat gets traded for Klingberg, I think Tavares camp will be unimpressed.  Not because it's a bad idea but this is just a hypothetical plan and Tavares camp will have tough time believing in such proposal becoming a reality. It's like, "if you sign with us, we will do this" and he will say, "what if Dallas doesn't agree to the trade?" "..." 

 

I think we have a lot better chance of selling the vision with Horvat than without Horvat. Horvat is already named to team Canada and is projected for 2022 olympic team. The sales pitch I would make to Tavares is as follows:

 

1. To pitch Horvat as Bergeron or Toewes in the making. Tavares played against Bergeron and he has never had a player of that type playing behind him (Barzal is the offensive type, the same one as Tavares) so he should know the value of having such player on the team.

2. Pettersson. Pettersson can be a great center but will be an even better winger where he is allowed to focus more on scoring and less on center duties. Pitching to Tavares that we want he and Pettersson to replace Henrik and Daniel will leave a very strong impression. Someone made a comparison between Patty Kane and EP, I think that comparison actually has good merit.

3. Boeser. Nothing needs to be said. Tavares should know what Boeser can do.

 

Tavares will question our goaltending and defence. And I guess that's the part that you wish to address but I think we have a better chance to sign him with Horvat than based on a hypothetical scenario with defenceman blah obtained in a trade involving Horvat.

 

 

First point is a fair one. It's a fair amount of moving pieces.  But then, Klingberg isn't the only one we could target.  There are several other players that would serve the same purpose.  Main point is that we dangle Horvat to acquire our #1d.  Maybe it's Makar.  Who knows....

 

I can also appreciate your desire to have Pettersson on wing where he doesn't have as much responsibility.  But I think you're looking at it from a development perspective.  If he can play center (and he has), then why not exploit that as an ability rather than let it die completely?

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Bo is 23, he was on a 30 goal 60+ point pace prior to injury.  He has shown us he can improve year after year, so I dont think 70 points is out of the question.  Centers like him, guys that ca be saddled with D zone starts, and still put up great numbers are hard to find.  Like someone else said I have a feeling that he has another gear in the post season - he is built like a bull and can still operate when the srews come down in the playoffs.

 

Instead of trading him for a  D man, how about we keep him and try and get the  D man via Free agency or the draft.

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2 minutes ago, Fateless said:

So just to be clear, your proposal is that we would give up Horvat + Hutton + X for Klingberg, who you yourself mentioned may walk in free agency the following season.

That just seems like a terrible option. 

Who... Klingberg?  Nope... he's signed long term for a very modest amount.

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1 minute ago, kloubek said:

First point is a fair one. It's a fair amount of moving pieces.  But then, Klingberg isn't the only one we could target.  There are several other players that would serve the same purpose.  Main point is that we dangle Horvat to acquire our #1d.  Maybe it's Makar.  Who knows....

 

I can also appreciate your desire to have Pettersson on wing where he doesn't have as much responsibility.  But I think you're looking at it from a development perspective.  If he can play center (and he has), then why not exploit that as an ability rather than let it die completely?

Yeah but will Makar become #1? Unless we get a true #1, Tavares won't bite. Prospect of #1D won't be enough to convince Tavares.

 

I actually want EP to stay at wing until it becomes necessary for him to play C. As is the case with most other Canucks fans, it's hard to contain excitement when it comes to EP. I might be crazy to suggest this but I can see EP becoming a 100 point player as a winger. As a center, I'm not so sure.

 

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Just now, Darius71 said:

Bo is 23, he was on a 30 goal 60+ point pace prior to injury.  He has shown us he can improve year after year, so I dont think 70 points is out of the question.  Centers like him, guys that ca be saddled with D zone starts, and still put up great numbers are hard to find.  Like someone else said I have a feeling that he has another gear in the post season - he is built like a bull and can still operate when the srews come down in the playoffs.

 

Instead of trading him for a  D man, how about we keep him and try and get the  D man via Free agency or the draft.

We can certainly try, and as you can see I considered we got OEL in that manner.  

 

A lot of this surrounded the best placement of Pettersson, and the potential he MAY not turn out as super elite as we are all hoping/expecting.  By putting him in a #2c role it allows him to thrive without so much pressure, and we get to utilize his ability to play center rather than stick him on the wing where we lose that ability. 

 

But hey, the overall idea is still similar minus Horvat if you prefer.  A Pettersson/Tavares/Boeser line looks like the best in the NHL.

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2 minutes ago, khay said:

Yeah but will Makar become #1? Unless we get a true #1, Tavares won't bite. Prospect of #1D won't be enough to convince Tavares.

 

I actually want EP to stay at wing until it becomes necessary for him to play C. As is the case with most other Canucks fans, it's hard to contain excitement when it comes to EP. I might be crazy to suggest this but I can see EP becoming a 100 point player as a winger. As a center, I'm not so sure.

 

Is that something that is realistic?  (I honestly don't know).  I'd be ok with him playing wing until he can take the extra responsibility.  I'm just not sure if the fact that he wouldn't have worked on his center skills at this level would be a detriment to throw on him at a later date.

Anyway, I wouldn't focus on the specific names of Klingberg OR Makar.  The point is, I feel Hovat is improving enough and has such a well rounded game that he could be the key to getting us our #1d right away rather than wait years via the draft.  

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4 minutes ago, kloubek said:

Is that something that is realistic?  (I honestly don't know).  I'd be ok with him playing wing until he can take the extra responsibility.  I'm just not sure if the fact that he wouldn't have worked on his center skills at this level would be a detriment to throw on him at a later date.

Anyway, I wouldn't focus on the specific names of Klingberg OR Makar.  The point is, I feel Hovat is improving enough and has such a well rounded game that he could be the key to getting us our #1d right away rather than wait years via the draft.  

You mean like Ryan Johansen for Seth Jones type of deal? I agree that Horvat can get us a defenceman on the verge of becoming a #1 dman. I'm just not sure if I agree that is the best way to entice Tavares. Let's say we trade Horvat for 2015-16 version of Seth Jones. He had 31 points in 81 games. Is Tavares more likely to sign here?

 

Regarding EP, I guess what I'm saying is if we have two capable centermen like Horvat and for the sake of argument, Tavares, it may be in our best interest to keep EP on wing and get him to score 100 points for us. If we don't get a capable centerman other than Tavares, then yeah, we have no choice but to eventually shift EP to C. 

 

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7 minutes ago, khay said:

You mean like Ryan Johansen for Seth Jones type of deal? I agree that Horvat can get us a defenceman on the verge of becoming a #1 dman. I'm just not sure if I agree that is the best way to entice Tavares. Let's say we trade Horvat for 2015-16 version of Seth Jones. He had 31 points in 81 games. Is Tavares more likely to sign here?

 

Regarding EP, I guess what I'm saying is if we have two capable centermen like Horvat and for the sake of argument, Tavares, it may be in our best interest to keep EP on wing and get him to score 100 points for us. If we don't get a capable centerman other than Tavares, then yeah, we have no choice but to eventually shift EP to C. 

 

Yeah, I would almost think that Tavares would rather have a versatile #2 C like Bo that can take away the attention of other teams' top lines, do a bit of PK, etc. Lets Tavares play "easier" minutes.

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I, seriously, don't think Dallas touches this.

Their defense, as a whole, is solid and Klingberg is their #1D which will always out-value a #2C in anyone's books.

Don't get me wrong, if JB were to pry Esa out of Dallas, I would see him as a GMing god and the sun would shine on him forever but, unfortunately, he's merely human and could never make this happen in anyone's world.

Except yours, of course. 

Like what you're trying to do though.

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7 minutes ago, khay said:

You mean like Ryan Johansen for Seth Jones type of deal? I agree that Horvat can get us a defenceman on the verge of becoming a #1 dman. I'm just not sure if I agree that is the best way to entice Tavares. Let's say we trade Horvat for 2015-16 version of Seth Jones. He had 31 points in 81 games. Is Tavares more likely to sign here?

 

Regarding EP, I guess what I'm saying is if we have two capable centermen like Horvat and for the sake of argument, Tavares, it may be in our best interest to keep EP on wing and get him to score 100 points for us. If we don't get a capable centerman other than Tavares, then yeah, we have no choice but to eventually shift EP to C. 

 

Yeah, I would almost think that Tavares would rather have a versatile #2 C like Bo that can take away the attention of other teams' top lines, do a bit of PK, etc. Lets Tavares play "easier" minutes.

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1 hour ago, kloubek said:

Ok, hear me out before you lynch me.  What I am about to suggest is not going to be popular, nor is it going to be likely.  Let's make that clear.  Especially the latter portion.  THIS IS NOT LIKELY.

 

But let's say, just say it happened.

 

First, it relies on us acquiring Tavares.  There are plenty of reasons why he might be willing to come to Vancouver, and while most don't think it is possible I imagine most of it relies on whether he believes he could win a cup here or not.  If we showed him a plan where it seemed likely, and we also offered him the best contract option, I do think it is at least feasible that we could make an offer he would consider.  So let's just say we did that, and let's say we got him.

 

In this circumstance, we would have Tavares, Horvat, and Pettersson as high end center material.  We COULD play Pettersson on the wing but there are two reasons I'm not keen on that.  First, if a player is able to play center properly (as Pettersson is) I feel it is a waste to put them on wing.  I could see a scenario where our 1-2 punch would be Tavares and Pettersson, and that would put Horvat as the odd man out.  The second is to reunite him with Dahlen.

 

I know everyone loves Horvat.  I do too.  But if we already have two elite centers, it would actually make him expendable and you need to give up quality to get quality.

 

...and what we don't have, however, is a quality #1 d-man.  

 

So how about this: Acquire Tavares, then trade Horvat + Hutton + ? for a guy like Klingberg.  He would dramatically help Dallas's center position.

 

Then next season if he goes UFA, sign OEL.

 

In the end, our team looks something like this:

 

______* Tavares Boeser

Dahlen Pettersson Lind
Virtanen Sutter Eriksson

Gadjovich Gaudette Archibald

 

Gagner and Baertschi are traded for picks to help ensure we maintain a winning team in years to come.

 

* This spot could be Virtanen.  Could be Goldobin.  Or maybe Eriksson finds chemistry with Tavares. Or Leipsic takes a step up.  Maybe Gadjovich explodes on the scene.  Or maybe we luck out and draft Zadina.  There are options for this position.  Having Tavares at #1 shelters him to flourish in a #2 position. Before he is put into the lineup, he plays one full year in Utica and we sign a UFA center for 1 year in the meantime while we tank one last year.

 

Then for the d:

Klingberg Tanev - One of the top scoring d and one of the top defensive d in the league.  (Yes I know, people want to trade Tanev.  We can work on that and maybe get a young defender in return)

OEL Gudbranson - Solid scoring defender for the 2nd pp unit, and a physical defensive defender.  Not SUPER keen on Gudbranson, but we have him under contract now)

Edler* Stecher  - (*Re-signed for 2m)  Edler would thrive in a 3rd pairing offensive role.  Stecher would compliment him well.


We tank for next season, then after that... BAM.  Assuming Demko can hold the fort or Markstrom finds consistency, we have a contender the following season.  The above is a VERY good team, and we can actually fit it under the cap for the duration of the contracts in play.

 

Is all this likely?  No.  Not at all.  But COULD it happen?

 

Do you guys feel this is a heavily contending team as I do? I realize it is a long shot but if all the stars fell into place, I do think it is possible...

I think that this is an interesting concept, however I believe it should be predicated on acquiring Tavares, keeping Horvat and then seeing what we have in Pettersson, probably for as much as an entire season.

If Pettersson can prove to be a #1/#2 capable center in an elite capacity, then I think this is a move you make in the off season in and around the draft. At that point OEL would be coming up for free agency, so why not try and land him first before trading away Horvat?

If we still are lacking elite depth on D, then and only then do you look at moving on from Horvat insofar as purely from a asset management perspective (give quality/get quality).

I'm still of the mind that we should go after Tavares regardless, and move out other pieces to make salary fit. Bo is a known quantity who is still projecting better and better, is future captain material and is signed long term to a very reasonable cap hit.

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8 minutes ago, scheif16 said:

TOR says No

Not sure if that was even a serious statement he made.  No way in hell they'd trade Matthews for Horvat so it seemed like a bad troll job to me.  Besides that, if we gave up a guy like Horvat we better be getting someone back we wouldn't otherwise get in FA - which is why I focused on a #1d.  With that said, OEL is a poor-mans version of a legit #1 d - so I put him in the #2 spot where I think he would be perfect.

I could have included Carlson, but 1) We don't have a good enough team right now for him to want to come here I don't think and 2) I'm not sure if his one good year is an anomaly, or if this is what we can expect from him going forward. Risk factor seems too high considering the price he will command in UFA.  I had focused on Klingberg because he has a great cap hit for many more years.  In fact, I'd say he's a better deal than Horvat who is already a good deal.

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2 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

Alright, but it better be at least reasonable.

 

The gallows are ready, step up.

That would be a small +.  Hutton is there to help fill a vacant spot that opens up with Dallas, but I don't think his value is all that high.  The + could be a low-end prospect or late pick.  Klingberg is on a good, long contract hit and the guy put up 67 points this season.  67!  That's huge.  It takes assets to get assets.  While Horvat is still improving, I think it is fair value for a true #1 d which we so badly need.

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i think the team needs a strong bull type centre moving forward

bo is our present and best option

he seems to still be growing and getting stronger

and is still developing his game .. he could end up being #1

just seems a bit unlikely at present

 

i think acquiring tavares should just be avoided

he does not really fit age wise into our development plan and timing

 

if we need better d we can throw other resources at that problem instead of bo

we have a ton of cap space

we have other prospects who are not centres

i'd part with a high end winger if required to get the right dman

but i really doubt one can be obtained via trade

i think it's through the draft or free agency

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6 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

i think the team needs a strong bull type centre moving forward

bo is our present and best option

he seems to still be growing and getting stronger

and is still developing his game .. he could end up being #1

just seems a bit unlikely at present

 

i think acquiring tavares should just be avoided

he does not really fit age wise into our development plan and timing

 

if we need better d we can throw other resources at that problem instead of bo

we have a ton of cap space

we have other prospects who are not centres

i'd part with a high end winger if required to get the right dman

but i really doubt one can be obtained via trade

i think it's through the draft or free agency

Completely disagree.  Tavares is quite a physical player so he would serve that purpose.  He's also going to be producing at the same or almost the same level by the time a 6 year contract would be up.  Maybe slightly regressing at the end, at which time Pettersson can usurp him as the #1 center. His age is not a problem, and he would make up the leadership we would lose in Horvat.

 

I think the lineup I presented is a winning lineup, and it doesn't even consider many of the prospects we have coming through the pipe.  That's the great thing here; we can utilize those prospects for draft picks to keep the ball rolling going forward, or insert them into the lineup and trade our more established guys for those picks or perhaps a physical guy like Reeves.  We have options.

D via the draft will take longer than any of us would like unless we land an outstanding guy who can get in sooner than later.  Given our draft position, I'm not sure that's likely. I do agree that we can do so via FA, which is how I added OEL to the lineup.  But still, it is a toss-up on who would want to come here so nothing is guaranteed there either.  

 

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4 minutes ago, kloubek said:

Completely disagree.  Tavares is quite a physical player so he would serve that purpose.  He's also going to be producing at the same or almost the same level by the time a 6 year contract would be up.  Maybe slightly regressing at the end, at which time Pettersson can usurp him as the #1 center. His age is not a problem, and he would make up the leadership we would lose in Horvat.

 

I think the lineup I presented is a winning lineup, and it doesn't even consider many of the prospects we have coming through the pipe.  That's the great thing here; we can utilize those prospects for draft picks to keep the ball rolling going forward, or insert them into the lineup and trade our more established guys for those picks or perhaps a physical guy like Reeves.  We have options.

D via the draft will take longer than any of us would like unless we land an outstanding guy who can get in sooner than later.  Given our draft position, I'm not sure that's likely. I do agree that we can do so via FA, which is how I added OEL to the lineup.  But still, it is a toss-up on who would want to come here so nothing is guaranteed there either.  

 

we can just agree to disagree

 

and i disagree jt will sign a 6 year contract

he will sign a max term contract

7 years if he leaves the isles

8 if he stays

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