No Sedin Treatment!!!!!

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, Baggins said:

Periwinkle....

Red...pure red.

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

Curious how many players this year who we except to be the core of this team moving forward were injured this year? And were they injured the year before as well?

[spook007]

God I miss a Torres type...Tom Wilson or the like would do wonders for me. Think Kane could keep Kadri honest. 

Our 3rd line in 2011 was as good a third one as I can remember on any team. 

 

Remains to be seen if we can get a team as good, but I think were trending in the right direction.

[-DLC-]

Quote

with a skilled TOUGH BIG player on every line

These guys aren't easy to come by.  Tough, big, skilled (also need to be fast to keep up).

 

Add it to the wishlist, but don't hold your breathe trying to acquire a guy like this for each line.  We need each player to adopt a sense of toughness in standing their ground and being tough to move off the puck.  Resilient.  A lot of core stability and strength that makes it harder to knock them off balance.

 

Toughness comes in different forms.  Stech is tough in my view.  Is he punch 'em up tough?  No, not so much.  But he doesn't back down, will crash into the corners and isn't "scared".  So that sort of toughness doesn't have to be in a "big" guy...that can actually slow us down.

 

Can't cry over spilt Trymk.  He's gone and, yes, he was ideal in the role you speak of.  But, again, not a dime a dozen so you work with those you do have.  Make the whole team play "tough" and stand up for each other.  I think we focus too much on being disciplined at times and that needs to be rounded out a bit.  We're not rewarded for it, so bring out the crazed beast every once in awhile.  Sometimes you've got to show an edge to send a message.

 

But, for the most part, the league has changed and it's more important to be fast and skilled than to be able to goon it up.  Teams that focus on that often get left behind.  The big bad Bruins got beat last game and their weaknesses can be exposed.  As they lost composure, they were assessed four penalties in a row and that hurt them.  So that game can get out of control and be a detriment if not reeled back in.  When they lose it they also lose focus and a team can skate around them that way.

[timberz21]

22 hours ago, IBatch said:

I'd recommend watching Ice Gaurdians on Netflix.  Its interesting how misunderstood the enforcer role is, and how important it was when we had them.  There's a reason Gretzky wouldn't go to LA unless McSorley came with him, yes your right things still happened to players back then, but the amount of overall man games lost and concussions has gone up exponentially since they petered out of the league, same with injuries in generap...

  If you check the entire list of players that had their careers cut short due to concussions only a couple were enforcers, which is telling that it's not fighting that causes most of them.

 

There is no code anymore, anyone can do something to another player and not have to worry about watching their back.   The enforcer is in hibernation IMO, all it would take is one team to bring them back and others will follow.

 

So, Increase in injuries and concussion is due to disappearance of enforcer and not due to the evolution of the equipment from leather and tissue to plastic harder than rock?  It is not because guys are faster, bigger and more trained than ever?  In the 80's, 90's 4th line player we're so bad, the difference between Gretzky and them was a joke.  Putting them on the ice with Gretzky was basically forfeiting the game.  The talent, skills and speed level were so unmatched that is was ridiculous.  Nowadays, 4th line player are just as fast as elite superstar, they have as much endurance or more and they all have a basic set of skills.    Now, 4th line player can during one game, one playoff series, handle and shutdown the best of them (Crosby, McDavid, etc.), they couldn't do that in the 80s, 90s.

 

Increase in injury and concussion is not due to lack of enforcer....it's called evolution.  Medicine has evolved exponentially in the pasts decades, the word concussion probably didn't exist in the 80's.  

 

The difference between a concussion and a knee injury, is you can't play on a bad knee.  Many concussions symptoms come and go, and physically doesn't diminish any of your abilities, yet the long-term consequences keeps piling on.  Many enforcers will and have admit that they have played through concussion, way more than elite players.  Because that's their job and their only way to make a living, while others usually have made more money than them.  So maybe that has an effect on them cutting their career short.  Also, many enforcers are driven out of the league for their lack of abilities, before they can cut their career short due to concussion.  So that's probably why the number is lower also.

 

Finally, this is 2018, you can have all the enforcers you want, but you need two to tango.  If your enforcer wants to fight but nobody wants to answer...well that's not helping, especially if he can't play hockey.  You're probably going to tell me to remove the instigating rule again.....but in my book, if someone jump another players who doesn't want to fight....that's assault. 

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, timberz21 said:

So, Increase in injuries and concussion is due to disappearance of enforcer and not due to the evolution of the equipment from leather and tissue to plastic harder than rock?  It is not because guys are faster, bigger and more trained than ever?  In the 80's, 90's 4th line player we're so bad, the difference between Gretzky and them was a joke.  Putting them on the ice with Gretzky was basically forfeiting the game.  The talent, skills and speed level were so unmatched that is was ridiculous.  Nowadays, 4th line player are just as fast as elite superstar, they have as much endurance or more and they all have a basic set of skills.    Now, 4th line player can during one game, one playoff series, handle and shutdown the best of them (Crosby, McDavid, etc.), they couldn't do that in the 80s, 90s.

 

Increase in injury and concussion is not due to lack of enforcer....it's called evolution.  Medicine has evolved exponentially in the pasts decades, the word concussion probably didn't exist in the 80's.  

 

The difference between a concussion and a knee injury, is you can't play on a bad knee.  Many concussions symptoms come and go, and physically doesn't diminish any of your abilities, yet the long-term consequences keeps piling on.  Many enforcers will and have admit that they have played through concussion, way more than elite players.  Because that's they job and their only way to make a living, while others usually have made more money than them.  So maybe that has an effect on them cutting their career short.  Also, many enforcers are driving out of the league for their lack of abilities, before they can cut their career short due to concussion.  So thats probably why the number is lower also.

 

Finally, this is 2018, you can have all the enforcers you want, but you need two to tango.  If your enforcer wants to fight but nobody wants to answer...well that's not helping, especially if he can't play hockey.  You're probably going to tell me to remove the instigating rule again.....but in my book, if someone jump another players who doesn't want to fight....that's assault. 

I'm glad you brought the equipment up as yes definitely that is part of it.  Space age rock hard shoulder and elbow pads make the player feel invulnerable and are also a lot deadlier that the pads Shanny wore right until the end.  

 

I agree players are faster than they used to, but it doesn't make them all round better players, they are just faster (Hedican was fast, but he was no Coffey).  Every era had fast guys too...Gartner's all star record was just recently broken, and there were other guys that could hang with him too, anyone who can do a 14 second lap is fast enough.

 

I'm not pining for the goons, those guys were plugs that just came up to fight and didn't last long, I'm looking for guys that can play hard and aren't a liability, third or fourth line.  There are at least 31 guys around that could do that, the enforcer has value.  

 

I'm not making this up, it comes from stories and shows I've read and watched on the subject... injuries are way up, equipment, the speed the game is played at and the lack of retribution all play factors into this.

 

Werenski is out for six months...too bad.

 

[timberz21]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I'm glad you brought the equipment up as yes definitely that is part of it.  Space age rock hard shoulder and elbow pads make the player feel invulnerable and are also a lot deadlier that the pads Shanny wore right until the end.  

 

I agree players are faster than they used to, but it doesn't make them all round better players, they are just faster (Hedican was fast, but he was no Coffey).  Every era had fast guys too...Gartner's all star record was just recently broken, and there were other guys that could hang with him too, anyone who can do a 14 second lap is fast enough.

 

I'm not pining for the goons, those guys were plugs that just came up to fight and didn't last long, I'm looking for guys that can play hard and aren't a liability, third or fourth line.  There are at least 31 guys around that could do that, the enforcer has value.  

 

I'm not making this up, it comes from stories and shows I've read and watched on the subject... injuries are way up, equipment, the speed the game is played at and the lack of retribution all play factors into this.

 

Werenski is out for six months...too bad.

 

On that I agree with you.  Its just to me I didn't really see much difference in the definition of Goons and Enforcer.    But I feel that these days, one player can't make a team tough or protected.  It has to be a mindset and a contribution from everybody.  I can't really say the Bruins have an enforcer, but they have players (big or small) that are hardnosed, tough and fights for every inch on the ice.   I mean Marchand, I think would be an even better hockey player without all of his antics, he doesn't need to be such a rat.

 

To me, one solution to some unwanted contacts would be to increase the rink size.   I don't think it would solve everything but should help.   I'm not suggesting using Olympics size rink either, because rink is wider but length is shorter.   I'd use the same NHL size ratios.  If you increase rink size by 10%, well that's 10% of length, width, size between blue lines, red lines, etc.  So the game is not really altered because all of the ratios are the same.  But I think it's not possible because every NHL arena would be probably major renovations.

 

Another problem is the helmets.  Except for protecting against puck to the head and head hitting the ice on a fall (even then) they are useless against head contact.  Player barely strap it on to their head.  If the players and NHL would be really worried about player safety, they would need to adopt a NFL type helmet.  Something that is fastened to their head with a chin strap.    It would be ugly as well and players would never do it...but that's one big problems for head contacts.  The head absorb most of the shocks and head are twisted on a swivel like crazy and the helmet is so loose that I don't think it protect much.  Again, I don't think players would go for it...even though year later they are going to sue the league for not disclosing information on head injuries.  

[Baggins]

16 hours ago, spook007 said:

God I miss a Torres type...Tom Wilson or the like would do wonders for me. Think Kane could keep Kadri honest. 

Our 3rd line in 2011 was as good a third one as I can remember on any team. 

 

Remains to be seen if we can get a team as good, but I think were trending in the right direction.

The truth is the types that play like that will do so regardless. Fighting Torres didn't stop him from playing on the edge, and often crossing the line. Not even suspensions stopped him from playing that way. I really think it comes down to fan ego more than it having any real effect on those types of players.

[spook007]

3 hours ago, Baggins said:

The truth is the types that play like that will do so regardless. Fighting Torres didn't stop him from playing on the edge, and often crossing the line. Not even suspensions stopped him from playing that way. I really think it comes down to fan ego more than it having any real effect on those types of players.

Yes this may very well be true. But that doesn’t stop me from missing a Torres type player or two...

what stands out to me during the play offs, is how many chances are being created by hard forechecking, and a bit of nestiness by third liners. 

But even players like Stamkos and Ovi doesn’t shy away. 

We need players who can compete, and players with size. Small players gets bullied....

[Baggins]

3 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Yes this may very well be true. But that doesn’t stop me from missing a Torres type player or two...

what stands out to me during the play offs, is how many chances are being created by hard forechecking, and a bit of nestiness by third liners. 

But even players like Stamkos and Ovi doesn’t shy away. 

We need players who can compete, and players with size. Small players gets bullied....

Small players like Marchand?

 

I don't think size matters. Players simply play the way they play. Rypien certainly wasn't a giant. Neither was Cooke. Or Fleury. But fighting them certainly didn't change the way they play. I'm not saying we shouldn't have size or physical players on the team. But ultimately they have to bring much more than just those elements. There's nothing wrong with having small, or average, sized skilled players. Kadri isn't huge at 6' 190lbs. He plays bigger than that though. That's what you need. Guys that play bigger than they are. Rypien did in a big way. Biega is a guy that plays bigger than he is. Unfortunately there isn't much in the way of skill to go with it.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, timberz21 said:

On that I agree with you.  Its just to me I didn't really see much difference in the definition of Goons and Enforcer.    But I feel that these days, one player can't make a team tough or protected.  It has to be a mindset and a contribution from everybody.  I can't really say the Bruins have an enforcer, but they have players (big or small) that are hardnosed, tough and fights for every inch on the ice.   I mean Marchand, I think would be an even better hockey player without all of his antics, he doesn't need to be such a rat.

 

To me, one solution to some unwanted contacts would be to increase the rink size.   I don't think it would solve everything but should help.   I'm not suggesting using Olympics size rink either, because rink is wider but length is shorter.   I'd use the same NHL size ratios.  If you increase rink size by 10%, well that's 10% of length, width, size between blue lines, red lines, etc.  So the game is not really altered because all of the ratios are the same.  But I think it's not possible because every NHL arena would be probably major renovations.

 

Another problem is the helmets.  Except for protecting against puck to the head and head hitting the ice on a fall (even then) they are useless against head contact.  Player barely strap it on to their head.  If the players and NHL would be really worried about player safety, they would need to adopt a NFL type helmet.  Something that is fastened to their head with a chin strap.    It would be ugly as well and players would never do it...but that's one big problems for head contacts.  The head absorb most of the shocks and head are twisted on a swivel like crazy and the helmet is so loose that I don't think it protect much.  Again, I don't think players would go for it...even though year later they are going to sue the league for not disclosing information on head injuries.  

Gotcha, if you ask any guy that hung around for five plus years and ask them if they consider them self a goon that did that job they would tell you they don't like the word and consider themselves enforcers.  Goons were the guys that started popping up in the eightees and couldn't do much more than fight, most would last a few days and that's it.  At least that's what they themselves consider, Ice Gaurdians on Netflix does a decent job explaining it. 

 

Eventually sometime in the ninetees the goon evolved and sometimes stuck for longer, like Peter Worrell.  Guys like knuckles Nilan could actually score goals, same with Probert and even Domi wasn't so bad.  Those guys are the ones I'm referring too as what is missing in today's game, it really isn't the same it even feels different.  Games used to be extra exciting when things heated up, it was like a valve gathering steam and you felt it.

 

Now somebody gets mugged and the most you can expect is some guys hanging around after the whistle, with the injured player off to the dressing room.

 

If it wasn't for the modern equipment that's gone completely overboard (it's supposed to protect you, not become a weapon, look at Howes shoulder pads and you can see the difference) maybe things would be ok, but until the players start respecting each other's well being a bit more the injuries will just keep piling up.  Thanks for discussing...

 

[spook007]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

Small players like Marchand?

 

I don't think size matters. Players simply play the way they play. Rypien certainly wasn't a giant. Neither was Cooke. Or Fleury. But fighting them certainly didn't change the way they play. I'm not saying we shouldn't have size or physical players on the team. But ultimately they have to bring much more than just those elements. There's nothing wrong with having small, or average, sized skilled players. Kadri isn't huge at 6' 190lbs. He plays bigger than that though. That's what you need. Guys that play bigger than they are. Rypien did in a big way. Biega is a guy that plays bigger than he is. Unfortunately there isn't much in the way of skill to go with it.

I think in general size does matter...

While you are spot on with the players you mentioned, Rypien, RIP,  was an animal. Cooke and Kadri are just dirty rats. Marchand while also being a rat, actually is quite a good hockey player as well (and I hate him) but . But if we had Rypien deal with Kadri after he nailed Sedin and Hansen, I think he would have thought twice before going again.

When you see the defenders being hammered again and again, you'll have to admit the likely hood of the defenders withstanding it over a series is greater for a 6'3 230lbs, that it is for a 6' 180lbs, as well if a 220lbs+ forward hits, its felt more than a forward at 185lbs.

But other than that yes regardless of their size they have to play big, otherwise its totally irrelevant.

 

[TheGuardian_]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 11:57 AM, IBatch said:

To me the most reckless hit was Cooke on Savard

Savard was nailed 4 or 5 times like that, he just couldn't stop watching his passes which contributed to those types of hits, he just never had his head on a swivel, he almost played like it was a non hitting league so he got wiped out more often than not.

Gretzky got hammered only once watching his pass or head down that I can remember, he never watched his pass again, they picked him up off the ice and got Semenko after deciding having a dman sitting out 5 minutes was not smart hockey.

 

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 11:57 AM, IBatch said:

Marchand and Kadri are lucky.

Yes they are, this licking thing that Marchand is doing is silly, I await the time when he tries that and the player jumps up so his shoulder hits the rat in the jaw and he bites his tongue, I wonder if that would be considered a head shot?

 

What stopped most of the fighting were the "staged" fights. Teams that lose a lot used those types of fights as entertainment. An enforcer acted differently. Probert scored over 30 goals, Battleship Kelly scored 40, Tiger 30+, some of these guys had talent.

 

This line up of sub 6' players is not going to be much of a deterrent, they aren't going to bounce a guy weighing 210 very often, their hieghts and weights are often exaggerated, a guy 5'9 1/2" is 5'11" in socks, 172 become 185. I have been around some of the 6'2"guys and they are not, maybe 6' 0.2".

 

As good as the Bruins were in the regular season, being a one line (scoring) team in the playoffs is not helping them, out here we should know, how many years have we heard "secondary scoring"?

 

  

[alfstonker]

On 03/05/2018 at 6:26 PM, oldnews said:

this is why we draft players like Gadjovich ie toughness that can play and sign young players like MacEwen.  not really news, and not really something that Benning needs to be made aware of.

Finding those types of players for your top 6 though - is easier said that done, and arguably, your Boston example doesn't really have 'toughness' (or a whole lot of size) in their top 6, so....  which of Pastrnak, Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci, DeBrusk are particularly large or intimidating?

Boston have always had a pack mentality. It is probably nurtured in Providence so that the prospects all know what is expected of them when they go up. It's what their fans have been used to and have always counted on.

They all buy in, that is how they intimidate. Not one of the players you mention could not give a good account of themselves if it came to man on man. And they all commit to the all in bullying philosophy led by alpha dogs Chara and McQuaid.

True they don't have Thornton or Lucic now but new boys like :

 

Acciari, 5'-10" 208lbs,

Backes, 6'-3" 225lbs,

Carlo, 6'-5" 205lbs,

Heinen, 6'-1" 185lbs,

Holden, 6'-4" 210lbs,

Kuraly, 6'-2" 205lbs,

McEvoy, 6'-0" 212lbs,

Nash, 6'-4" 220lbs,

Schaller 6'-2" 216lbs

Wingels 6'-1" 208lbs

 

all have shown the same commitment to get involved in any intimidation/conflict when required.

In the Tampa series Chara got away with murder. He involved himself in every flash point and initiated many of them.

 

Unfortunately for Boston they found a Tampa team who were all ready to stand their ground, even the small players like Johnson, Callahan and Point who are firebrands. This coupled with the fact Chara is just not what he was and Rask had a bit of a nightmare (while Vasilevskiy was mostly brilliant) meant Tampa made it through despite the bullying.

 

Don't think Tampa don't have size either they have some big heavy Ds in Coburn, Dotchin, Girardi, Hedman, McDonagh, Sustre, Segachev and willing combatants in Stralman and Koekkoek.

 

So let's not kid ourselves, if we go to the playoffs with most of the personnel we have at the moment and the refs once again throw away the rulebook we will get slaughtered.

[Nucker 67]

Not sure where to post this, but I saw "Sedin" in the title. I'm currently reading the Murray Howe book: "9 Lessons I Learned From My Father".

 

So far, it's great. Chapter 7 is titled "Be Tough", and Murray goes on to talk about his Dad's toughness, but also other players who were tough. But he brought up some interesting thoughts about what toughness is. He says:

 

Keep in mind that if you're playing in the NHL, you're tough. Even the finesse players, whom some fans think are soft, are anything but. They play through injury like everyone else, plus they have to put up with the non-stop cheap shots and trash talk. The toughest guy on the roster is not necessarily the enforcer.

 

This reminded me right away of the Sedins. Their whole careers they were called sisters, and all kinds of names, they were punched and targeted, but kept getting back up and played to win. They carried the Canucks for many years, even bringing them to Game 7 of the SCF. Soft players don't get to the SCF. I have a ton of respect for the Sedins, what they had to go through, how they exceled, and even flourished, under tough conditions. And they never complained. This is kind of how Gordie Howe was. He respected his team mates immensely, respected the officials, his team mates families, the fans, the coaches and owners, even the guy who picked up the trash after the game, everyone involved. I see the Sedins having similar character. We were very lucky to have them.    

[PhillipBlunt]

11 hours ago, alfstonker said:

Boston have always had a pack mentality. It is probably nurtured in Providence so that the prospects all know what is expected of them when they go up. It's what their fans have been used to and have always counted on.

They all buy in, that is how they intimidate. Not one of the players you mention could not give a good account of themselves if it came to man on man. And they all commit to the all in bullying philosophy led by alpha dogs Chara and McQuaid.

True they don't have Thornton or Lucic now but new boys like :

 

Acciari, 5'-10" 208lbs,

Backes, 6'-3" 225lbs,

Carlo, 6'-5" 205lbs,

Heinen, 6'-1" 185lbs,

Holden, 6'-4" 210lbs,

Kuraly, 6'-2" 205lbs,

McEvoy, 6'-0" 212lbs,

Nash, 6'-4" 220lbs,

Schaller 6'-2" 216lbs

Wingels 6'-1" 208lbs

 

all have shown the same commitment to get involved in any intimidation/conflict when required.

In the Tampa series Chara got away with murder. He involved himself in every flash point and initiated many of them.

 

Unfortunately for Boston they found a Tampa team who were all ready to stand their ground, even the small players like Johnson, Callahan and Point who are firebrands. This coupled with the fact Chara is just not what he was and Rask had a bit of a nightmare (while Vasilevskiy was mostly brilliant) meant Tampa made it through despite the bullying.

 

Don't think Tampa don't have size either they have some big heavy Ds in Coburn, Dotchin, Girardi, Hedman, McDonagh, Sustre, Segachev and willing combatants in Stralman and Koekkoek.

 

So let's not kid ourselves, if we go to the playoffs with most of the personnel we have at the moment and the refs once again throw away the rulebook we will get slaughtered.

 

 

 

[alfstonker]

12 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

 

 

 

Phil I like your repost but my post was about pack mentality. 

 

Edler much as I like him as a player, has little if any push back. 

Gudy seems injured most of the time and will probably end up being a 5/6 D who is unlikely to be on the ice when anything kicks off. However he would be a threat, I agree.

Virtanen, fair enough.

Archi. Most team line ups I see projected don't have Archi in them when everyone is fit. I do like him though.

 

I suppose what I'm saying is there is no mention of Stecher, Pettersson, Boeser, Goldobin, Dahlen, Baertschi, Granlund, Leipsic, Motte.

 

Hartnell and Subban having a day out with our boys.

 

 

[NHL'er]

On 5/3/2018 at 4:19 AM, 10pavelbure96 said:

Burrows>>>Carter 

 

Old news

Carter, do we really need him? 

[PhillipBlunt]

2 hours ago, alfstonker said:

Phil I like your repost but my post was about pack mentality. 

 

Edler much as I like him as a player, has little if any push back. 

Gudy seems injured most of the time and will probably end up being a 5/6 D who is unlikely to be on the ice when anything kicks off. However he would be a threat, I agree.

Virtanen, fair enough.

Archi. Most team line ups I see projected don't have Archi in them when everyone is fit. I do like him though.

 

I suppose what I'm saying is there is no mention of Stecher, Pettersson, Boeser, Goldobin, Dahlen, Baertschi, Granlund, Leipsic, Motte.

 

Hartnell and Subban having a day out with our boys.

 

 

I get what your saying, but I think there will be a concerted effort by Benning to seek FAs with size and heft to insulate the likes of Boeser and Petterson. If Kane decides that free agency is for him, Benning has a very strong chance of signing him. The likes of Reaves and Cole will be available, most likely, and either would be a decent add. Same goes for Wilson. 

 

The pairing of Edler and Gudbranson was a solid one that may return next season. Both were overtly physical with Edler chasing Johansen after the latter cowardly struck Guddy in the sack. I see Gudbranson having a stellar season that may turn some heads around the league. 

 

Jake came into his own last season and will continue to do so next season. Archie should be on the roster next season as well, as he had some great chemistry with Sutter. 

 

Regarding the pack mentality, I think that there will be a shift in how this team operates now that the Sedins are retired. A move towards a more aggressive style of play already seemed like it was beginning, but couldn't fully take hold due to the Sedins still being the defacto leaders on the team. 

[spook007]

21 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I get what your saying, but I think there will be a concerted effort by Benning to seek FAs with size and heft to insulate the likes of Boeser and Petterson. If Kane decides that free agency is for him, Benning has a very strong chance of signing him. The likes of Reaves and Cole will be available, most likely, and either would be a decent add. Same goes for Wilson. 

 

The pairing of Edler and Gudbranson was a solid one that may return next season. Both were overtly physical with Edler chasing Johansen after the latter cowardly struck Guddy in the sack. I see Gudbranson having a stellar season that may turn some heads around the league. 

 

Jake came into his own last season and will continue to do so next season. Archie should be on the roster next season as well, as he had some great chemistry with Sutter. 

 

Regarding the pack mentality, I think that there will be a shift in how this team operates now that the Sedins are retired. A move towards a more aggressive style of play already seemed like it was beginning, but couldn't fully take hold due to the Sedins still being the defacto leaders on the team. 

By God I hope you are right....