J.I.A.H.N Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 I believe we are 2 drafts away from completing the drafting part of our rebuild...this is the 2018 and 2019 draft.......how we conduct those drafts, will be proof of whether what I suggest is true or not. But we will have to make some moved. The trouble with the Canucks management (Benning) in this case, is that he has not made the bold move, not moving veterans for futures, nor signing a cash dump........this appears what rebuilding teams do......aka Toronto (signing vets to 1 year contracts and moving their own vets out for accumulate picks), Now York Rangers who made big moved at the years TDL to accumulate additional pick. This is an admission that a rebuild is in progress, and that nothing is sacred.....players will be moved for the betterment of the team, this was addressed in NYR's letter to their fans, where they also stated, that they accept that they will fall in the standing to allow this to happen....... So, now the Canucks have reached a 3/4 mark in their rebuild and still have a glaring area of rebuild.......defense! And just so luckily, it is a year, that there is a strong contingent of Defensemen in the first 2 rounds to pick from. I say defensemen, beacause they take so long to develop, and that there is always a forward that will be shinier....just about always......mostly because they are more predictable in their development.......but that doesn't mean you stay away from picking dmen.......as a matter of fact, you have to bite down and do it anyways, no matter how painfull Here are our prospects that should have a decent chance at making the NHL with us, along with suggested trade for picks with in the next 2 years................. 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 2014 2013 2012 1st 1st Pettersson Joulevi Boeser Virtanen Horvat Gaunce 2nd 1st (Tanev) Lind Lockwood Brisebois Demko XXXXX Hutton 2nd (Baertschi) 2nd Gadjovich XXXXXX Gaudette Tryamkin XXXXX XXXXX 3rd 2nd (Tanev) DiPietro XXXXXX Jasek XXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX 3rd (Pouliot) 3rd Now the reason I have made this Draft table is to illustrate where we are, and where we should be after the next 2 drafts I have excluded MCCann, Shinkarak and Gosling as they are no longer in our organization (But do not that 2 of the 3 are either playing in the NHL or on the way) I have included moving Tanev this year, and Baertschi and Pouliot in trades for picks, as they are being pushed out but younger AHL prospects or draft propsects Note that this does not include Goldobin(22), Liepsic (23), Motte(23) Dahlen (20) and Stetcher (24) all solid prospects or young NHLer's that have made the club This also does not include McEneny(23), Sautner(23),Chatfield(21) or McEwen (21) who were all signed as free agents My point to all this is to point out the glaring void of high end drafted Dmen, and that Benning has collected a strong contingent of young players........not all will make the big club, but it should noted that one we have focused on top end Dmen in this years draft, that we should look a hell of more complete on the back end, the 2019 draft should be focusing on additional forwards, but with the view of always BPA....as should the 2018 Draft. My view is always, as in the 2018 1st, that when there is 2 or more picks that are equal, then take need, if the is only one in that grouping take BPA............ Yes, I suggest trading Tanev, Pouliot and Baertschi, but our goal should be to amass a strong young group of players that will all be in position to compete in the playoffs in 3 or 4 years........trading Tanev and the lesser, bring us up closer in a shorter period of time. A lot of words........I know, I know! Sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuardian_ Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 IMO the rebuild was hinted at last year, but nothing really happened, I think the rebuild starts in earnest now. Tanev's value is much higher to some teams than others, he is a very good dman just not a high scoring, teams spend less time in their own end when he is on the ice, teams like Edmonton were exposed defensively, they have a glaring need for a RH dman so Larsson can concentrate on his strong point of being an offensive threat. Tanev's value is highest for teams almost/already there, the playoffs, TO could have used him as well. I haven't see much in the way of drafted players on the team, which indicates the level of rebuild 4 players over 4 years is not even on par with teams not rebuilding or needing to. If OJ was such a hot prospect then how can they overlook Bouchard or Dobson if available? Next year the draft is in our barn, it would be great if the Canucks are called two or three times to the podium in he first round, that might mean holding off trading Tanev until the TDL unless a team offers that pick now. But if offered now there has to be something added because with Tanev that pick is likely to get much higher. Benning went to work rebuilding the prospect pool? Well in a way there is success, there are many more prospects because none are making the team or being traded to make the team better, so far. A prospect is a prospect until he plays in the NHL or ages out, usually on most teams they start looking to get something for a failed prospect by the age or 22 or so, by that time that player has had 3+ years to show what he has got and if the team can use that in some role, that is why drafting size helps, there are not too many 5'9" energy guys that can win board battles against the like of Burns or Tryamkin. This should be the first true year of the rebuild, anything could happen, the greatest team of all time had 15 players under 24 on it although they traded for a lot. Draft for this year, play as many prospects as possible, explain to the fan base that winning is not the top priority this year the development is, suck and concentrate on getting first round picks for next year. Three more years of being at the bottom barring the other teams that are tanking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuardian_ Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 20 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: Note that this does not include Goldobin(22), Liepsic (23), Motte(23) Dahlen (20) and Stetcher (24) all solid prospects or young NHLer's that have made the club I have to add, "at this time" maybe two of them stick when this team becomes good. Making the worst NHL team over the last three years is not good enough for a contender. BTW I don't mind reading more than 128 character posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 I don't think a rebuild should ever be over. Having said that, the prospect pool is now at least getting candidates for the so called 7 core pieces. It is becoming more important to develop these guys. They are still drafting high though and will be adding some high end skill the next couple of drafts The Canucks got extra 1st rounders in 2013 (Schneider for Horvat) and 2014 (Kesler for McCann) and traded many assets and picks for prospects. Some, like Garrison was moved for a 2nd which was then converted to a prospect (Vey in this case). My point is that the veteran assets that remain with the team are intended by management to be kept to help with the development of young players. By this, I mean sheltering them from the hard match ups and putting them in positions for success If you examine what is left of the Rangers line up, they have a veteran top line with a 2nd line centre, a top pair, and a good goalie much like the Canucks had. The difference is they have taken the return on a fire sale of assets in draft picks where the Canucks took a lot of prospects to make up for years of lousy drafting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adarsh Sant Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 On 5/4/2018 at 10:35 AM, NUCKER67 said: Prospects (legit shot at NHL) and new young core F - Horvat, Boeser, Virtanen, Goldobin, Gaudette, Pettersson, Dahlen, Lind, Jasek, Palmu, Gadjovich, Lockwood D - Juolevi, Stecher, Hutton, Brisebois, Sautner, McEneny, Rathbone, Brassard G - Demko, DiPietro Needs: Top 6 C (Tkachuk, Wahlstrom, Kotkaniemi, Hayton) and Top pairing D (Dobson, Hughes, Bouchard, Boqvist) Yep, almost done Among the forwards you listed, there 3 maybe 4 top 6 guys. Among the D you listed there is 1 top 4 guy and one unknown (Juolevi). The rest are very average prospects. Demko is solid. Dipietro also looking solid. We need multiple top 4 D and multiple top 6 forwards. Not 1 and 1. Goalie is looking good though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 5 hours ago, SingleThorn said: When CDC goes into herd mode and starts to pick on one player, things turn to pure emotion and logic goes out the window. Tanev is our best d-man. Our only other top 4 d is Edler. All the rest are mediocre to good 3rd pairing d. I don't understand the frenzy to lose the type of player that we need more of, not less. Being the 'off' season, I guess the 'shiny new toy' forces are overwhelming too many posters. Sign a UFA to replace Tanev sounds so easy. It isn't ! It's all about getting "new things" to fantasise and write 500 pages on here about. Tanev is not shiny enough for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 On 5/4/2018 at 1:20 PM, 189lb enforcers? said: Several cellar-dweller seasons in, and yet I read in here that the Canucks are only ‘starting’ the rebuild. This leaves some obvious questions about the accidental Tank jobs and only one path forward: Fire Linden. reading something is one thing, believing it, another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 On 2018-05-04 at 10:30 AM, groovy said: Playoffs? Not a chance, but more good prospects in the pipeline. It`s what we need. I’m worried that another year at the bottom of the league will be the final straw for a guy like Bo. Nobody likes losing. Being the worst team in the league over a span of 4 years can be devastating in terms of player retention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5nothincanucksohno Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 On 5/4/2018 at 10:43 AM, aGENT said: There isn't really a clear cut BPA from 4(maybe even 3)-10 in this draft. Chances are, we're taking one of the D IMO, but I'll be happy with pretty much any guy ranked in that tier. I like Tanev @50% to CHI for their 8th or Tanev to PHI (taking back MacDonald) for their 14th '+' as basic frameworks. EDM doesn't want Tanev. Even though it would be nice to get more for Tanev (i.e. hit a home run) the idea of potentially getting Wahlstrom and one of the top 10 D prospects is pretty tempting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike27 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 On 5/5/2018 at 9:12 AM, janisahockeynut said: I believe we are 2 drafts away from completing the drafting part of our rebuild...this is the 2018 and 2019 draft.......how we conduct those drafts, will be proof of whether what I suggest is true or not. But we will have to make some moved. The trouble with the Canucks management (Benning) in this case, is that he has not made the bold move, not moving veterans for futures, nor signing a cash dump........this appears what rebuilding teams do......aka Toronto (signing vets to 1 year contracts and moving their own vets out for accumulate picks), Now York Rangers who made big moved at the years TDL to accumulate additional pick. This is an admission that a rebuild is in progress, and that nothing is sacred.....players will be moved for the betterment of the team, this was addressed in NYR's letter to their fans, where they also stated, that they accept that they will fall in the standing to allow this to happen....... So, now the Canucks have reached a 3/4 mark in their rebuild and still have a glaring area of rebuild.......defense! And just so luckily, it is a year, that there is a strong contingent of Defensemen in the first 2 rounds to pick from. I say defensemen, beacause they take so long to develop, and that there is always a forward that will be shinier....just about always......mostly because they are more predictable in their development.......but that doesn't mean you stay away from picking dmen.......as a matter of fact, you have to bite down and do it anyways, no matter how painfull Here are our prospects that should have a decent chance at making the NHL with us, along with suggested trade for picks with in the next 2 years................. 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 2014 2013 2012 1st 1st Pettersson Joulevi Boeser Virtanen Horvat Gaunce 2nd 1st (Tanev) Lind Lockwood Brisebois Demko XXXXX Hutton 2nd (Baertschi) 2nd Gadjovich XXXXXX Gaudette Tryamkin XXXXX XXXXX 3rd 2nd (Tanev) DiPietro XXXXXX Jasek XXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX 3rd (Pouliot) 3rd Now the reason I have made this Draft table is to illustrate where we are, and where we should be after the next 2 drafts I have excluded MCCann, Shinkarak and Gosling as they are no longer in our organization (But do not that 2 of the 3 are either playing in the NHL or on the way) I have included moving Tanev this year, and Baertschi and Pouliot in trades for picks, as they are being pushed out but younger AHL prospects or draft propsects Note that this does not include Goldobin(22), Liepsic (23), Motte(23) Dahlen (20) and Stetcher (24) all solid prospects or young NHLer's that have made the club This also does not include McEneny(23), Sautner(20),Chatfield(23) or McEwen (21) who were all signed as free agents My point to all this is to point out the glaring void of high end drafted Dmen, and that Benning has collected a strong contingent of young players........not all will make the big club, but it should noted that one we have focused on top end Dmen in this years draft, that we should look a hell of more complete on the back end, the 2019 draft should be focusing on additional forwards, but with the view of always BPA....as should the 2018 Draft. My view is always, as in the 2018 1st, that when there is 2 or more picks that are equal, then take need, if the is only one in that grouping take BPA............ Yes, I suggest trading Tanev, Pouliot and Baertschi, but our goal should be to amass a strong young group of players that will all be in position to compete in the playoffs in 3 or 4 years........trading Tanev and the lesser, bring us up closer in a shorter period of time. A lot of words........I know, I know! Sorry! Minor point, Sautner is not 20, he will turn 24 this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groovy Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 22 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said: I’m worried that another year at the bottom of the league will be the final straw for a guy like Bo. Nobody likes losing. Being the worst team in the league over a span of 4 years can be devastating in terms of player retention. I get your sentiments about losing and agree that it can be very harmful over time. What is more important is how you are losing. Are you on the cusp of a breakthrough or just going through the motions? This league is so tight that even losing teams can be trending in the right direction. Tampa didn`t even make playoffs last year. I don`t believe adding any single player to the team will change the overall outcome right now, but hopefully in 2-3 years it could. Bo is a pro (with an agent) who plays primarily for one thing... money. He is being given a fantastic opportunity with the Canucks to improve his game and his career. He could be getting 3rd line minutes on a contender. He can see where the team is headed and is likely thrilled to be where he is in his career at the moment, with some talent on the way to help improve the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 On 5/5/2018 at 11:32 AM, Adarsh Sant said: Among the forwards you listed, there 3 maybe 4 top 6 guys. you must be from the future. do tell us who will and won't be top 6 forwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adarsh Sant Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 3 hours ago, oldnews said: you must be from the future. do tell us who will and won't be top 6 forwards. It's based on projections. Anyone can be a top 6 guy. But some aren't projected to be right now. It's not that hard to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 On 2018-05-05 at 12:12 PM, janisahockeynut said: I believe we are 2 drafts away from completing the drafting part of our rebuild...this is the 2018 and 2019 draft.......how we conduct those drafts, will be proof of whether what I suggest is true or not. But we will have to make some moved. The trouble with the Canucks management (Benning) in this case, is that he has not made the bold move, not moving veterans for futures, nor signing a cash dump........this appears what rebuilding teams do......aka Toronto (signing vets to 1 year contracts and moving their own vets out for accumulate picks), Now York Rangers who made big moved at the years TDL to accumulate additional pick. This is an admission that a rebuild is in progress, and that nothing is sacred.....players will be moved for the betterment of the team, this was addressed in NYR's letter to their fans, where they also stated, that they accept that they will fall in the standing to allow this to happen....... So, now the Canucks have reached a 3/4 mark in their rebuild and still have a glaring area of rebuild.......defense! And just so luckily, it is a year, that there is a strong contingent of Defensemen in the first 2 rounds to pick from. I say defensemen, beacause they take so long to develop, and that there is always a forward that will be shinier....just about always......mostly because they are more predictable in their development.......but that doesn't mean you stay away from picking dmen.......as a matter of fact, you have to bite down and do it anyways, no matter how painfull Here are our prospects that should have a decent chance at making the NHL with us, along with suggested trade for picks with in the next 2 years................. 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 2014 2013 2012 1st 1st Pettersson Joulevi Boeser Virtanen Horvat Gaunce 2nd 1st (Tanev) Lind Lockwood Brisebois Demko XXXXX Hutton 2nd (Baertschi) 2nd Gadjovich XXXXXX Gaudette Tryamkin XXXXX XXXXX 3rd 2nd (Tanev) DiPietro XXXXXX Jasek XXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX 3rd (Pouliot) 3rd Now the reason I have made this Draft table is to illustrate where we are, and where we should be after the next 2 drafts I have excluded MCCann, Shinkarak and Gosling as they are no longer in our organization (But do not that 2 of the 3 are either playing in the NHL or on the way) I have included moving Tanev this year, and Baertschi and Pouliot in trades for picks, as they are being pushed out but younger AHL prospects or draft propsects Note that this does not include Goldobin(22), Liepsic (23), Motte(23) Dahlen (20) and Stetcher (24) all solid prospects or young NHLer's that have made the club This also does not include McEneny(23), Sautner(23),Chatfield(21) or McEwen (21) who were all signed as free agents My point to all this is to point out the glaring void of high end drafted Dmen, and that Benning has collected a strong contingent of young players........not all will make the big club, but it should noted that one we have focused on top end Dmen in this years draft, that we should look a hell of more complete on the back end, the 2019 draft should be focusing on additional forwards, but with the view of always BPA....as should the 2018 Draft. My view is always, as in the 2018 1st, that when there is 2 or more picks that are equal, then take need, if the is only one in that grouping take BPA............ Yes, I suggest trading Tanev, Pouliot and Baertschi, but our goal should be to amass a strong young group of players that will all be in position to compete in the playoffs in 3 or 4 years........trading Tanev and the lesser, bring us up closer in a shorter period of time. A lot of words........I know, I know! Sorry! Personally I think the problem with Benning is he started with no prospect pool and only one good player that he could move. Makes for a difficult rebuild, decent returns for Burrows and Hansen, not so much for Kesler, and Tanev wins the trophy for most posts connected to a trade for good reason, he's the only guy without a NTC/NMC. Sure you can ask/tell players they are getting moved anyways, but that makes things tricky when it comes time to negotiate a smaller cap hit by including a NTC/NMC with the next core later as the players will point out it didn't matter for whomever he outed earlier. Still he managed to move Burrows and Bieksa..... NYR and TO were in different situations, I like how bold they are, and wish we were in a similar position, but we had to work with what we had, which was almost zero, but now it's starting to look pretty sweet. Petterson just may have got him his contract extension, hope he continues his good work the next two years, which ifu he does I agree we will be pulling out and into chasing the wild card spot, especially if Demko turns into a top ten or even fifteen goalie. We need defenseman do badly Benning should pass on Zadina or BT if they slip, and Wahlstrom. That means we don't take the BPA this year possibly, draft for an organizational need like he did two years ago with Juolevi. Possibly next year too. The Seth Jones trade is possible, but we'd lose Boeser, Pettersson or Horvat to do that which would really sting. Its also not necessarily going to happen given its only happened once and the Hall trade is an indicator how valuable GMs treasure their top four defenseman. Which leaves overpaying for blue chip UFA defenseman, which sucks because they won't be the right age and could create cap issues for us later. Lots of words too! Ha ha. I like your thoughts on this, it does illustrate that our forward group is strong, but our defense is seriously lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Adarsh Sant said: It's based on projections. Anyone can be a top 6 guy. But some aren't projected to be right now. It's not that hard to understand. gobbledygook. you made a claim you can't qualify.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 1 hour ago, IBatch said: That means we don't take the BPA this year possibly, draft for an organizational need like he did two years ago with Juolevi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adarsh Sant Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 56 minutes ago, oldnews said: gobbledygook. you made a claim you can't qualify.. If you don't understand that is fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 1 hour ago, aGENT said: What exactly, that Juolevi was the best player available and we took him, or Benning drafted an organizational need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted May 8, 2018 Author Share Posted May 8, 2018 3 hours ago, IBatch said: Personally I think the problem with Benning is he started with no prospect pool and only one good player that he could move. Makes for a difficult rebuild, decent returns for Burrows and Hansen, not so much for Kesler, and Tanev wins the trophy for most posts connected to a trade for good reason, he's the only guy without a NTC/NMC. Sure you can ask/tell players they are getting moved anyways, but that makes things tricky when it comes time to negotiate a smaller cap hit by including a NTC/NMC with the next core later as the players will point out it didn't matter for whomever he outed earlier. Still he managed to move Burrows and Bieksa..... NYR and TO were in different situations, I like how bold they are, and wish we were in a similar position, but we had to work with what we had, which was almost zero, but now it's starting to look pretty sweet. Petterson just may have got him his contract extension, hope he continues his good work the next two years, which ifu he does I agree we will be pulling out and into chasing the wild card spot, especially if Demko turns into a top ten or even fifteen goalie. We need defenseman do badly Benning should pass on Zadina or BT if they slip, and Wahlstrom. That means we don't take the BPA this year possibly, draft for an organizational need like he did two years ago with Juolevi. Possibly next year too. The Seth Jones trade is possible, but we'd lose Boeser, Pettersson or Horvat to do that which would really sting. Its also not necessarily going to happen given its only happened once and the Hall trade is an indicator how valuable GMs treasure their top four defenseman. Which leaves overpaying for blue chip UFA defenseman, which sucks because they won't be the right age and could create cap issues for us later. Lots of words too! Ha ha. I like your thoughts on this, it does illustrate that our forward group is strong, but our defense is seriously lacking. Hi Ibatch Just quoted you because I wanted to address a couple of things and your post is a good starting point! I just want to make a point on a few things, first Kesler, disrupted the team....aka Schneiders wife, and then asked for a trade........... Kesler, should have been suspended by the club (there are usually clauses covering conduct in most performance contracts), without pay, until a suitable buyer was found......I feel Benning panicked on this and once Kesler knew he had Benning in a tight one, put his demands down to 1 team.....Benning should have held fast, and played tough with Kesler......he would have buckled, and Benning would have earned credibility with his players...............it also might have sent a message to other NTC/NMC players..............if I was doing it, Kesler would have been stapled to the bench until he buckled........ Secondly, some of your comments surrounding the NTC/NMC, brings me back to the Sedin's, and how much not moving them earlier, cost us, Benning crumpled to the pressure of the fans and Aqualini, it was a dumb A$$ move...............the Sedin's were great at dedication to their training and pregame prep........for that I give them their respect, but they were questionable on the "Culture" argument, as they did not back check, took questionable penalties, and never stood up for themselves, each other, or the team.......turn the other check was their philosophy....which is not always what a captain or veteran player should do.......most times you need to turn the other cheek, other times you need to play tough.........I am afraid most fans do not understand this...........the Sedin;s did not breed a culture...at least I hope they didn't...............because I want our team to back check with the same commitment that they used to attack with.........(watch Vegas to understand this).....actually all the teams still left in the playoffs Imagine, in 2015 if Benning would have talked to the Sedins, and convinced them to be moved together.........The take would have been picks and prospect equal to 1st + an A prospect for each.................the 1st could have been delayed and staggered, as with the prospects being the 1st best and 3rd best..............this would have been strategic and would have allowed us to a ) rebuilt quicker b ) allowed us to further sink down and c ) allow us to change our culture These things, along with moving other veterans, would have built our base strong, and we may have had a McDavid or Mathews, but the truth is, Aqualini had no stomach for this and Benning did not push this agenda........... Spilt milk, but to the point never the less.........culture is diverse.........and is not credited to just one persons or a small group of people's faith. PS.........Tor and NYR were not in a different, when we started to decline...........we just refused to admit it. (or couldn't recognize it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 12 hours ago, IBatch said: What exactly, that Juolevi was the best player available and we took him, or Benning drafted an organizational need? Both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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