An Intelligent Debate on Ancient Alien Theory

[EuroCanuck]

All,

 

Let's not degrade this into meme's of that guy with the funny hair, although I am sure some with the maturity level of a toddler will find a way. That being said, as a non religious person and one who was intrigued by the series before it started making too many sensationalist jumps, I do wonder if there is alot of truth in what Ancient Aliens raised (and too bad they went too far astray with theory vs scientific facts) as they did have some very valid or at least interesting arguments.

 

I actually believe there is evidence that we are not from here and hear me out. I am curious to see others thoughts without the nonsense, a real debate

 

1. As many have seen the shows, the artifacts, paintings with clear flying objects to me is pretty telling. People saw something and represented these things. Flying objects other than birds did not exist at the dawn of time.

 

2. Every book of God talks about angels -descending from heavens? Where does this idea come from? Again, primitive people explaining what they saw

 

3. Many art works from centuries ago depict flying 'dragons' with people on top - well what would a primitive person call a jet today? 

 

4. Science has shown we as humans are ill fitted for this planet. We walk upright when other animals do not, we actually work on a 25 hour circadian clock not 24 hours. We have an appendix which is effectively a useless organ? If we evolved on this planet why do we have useless organs? We have illnesses and bone/structural/physical ailments that are not existent in other animals - this comes from stresses on our bodies from both walking upright and gravity etc. Why do other animals on this planet not experience this? if we evolved on this planet why have our bodies not evolved to address these chronic issues?

 

5. RH negative blood -15% of the population - does not trace back to any known animal on this planet.  If man and ape had evolved from a common ancestor, their blood would have evolved the same way. Blood factors are transmitted with much more exactitude than any other characteristic. All other earthly primates also have this Rh factor. So, if all mankind evolved from the same ancestor, their blood should be compatible.  If we had all evolved from the same ancestor, we would all have the same blood. We don’t! RH Positive blood can be traced back to the Rhesus monkey and all other primates, but RH negative blood CANNOT. In fact, it cannot be traced anywhere else in nature. This fact puts into question the whole theory of evolution.

 

6. Where is the missing link? DNA doesn't 'break' - Scientists don't talk about this but they just say we 'evolved' but how did our DNA change from ape? No one can explain this but we 'gloss over it' like, meh its just accepted. Well if science can't explain it why are we so quick to ignore potential reasons? Ie maybe someone 'changed the sequence" - someone with knowledge of DNA sequencing and gene manipulation? Things we are just learning today....hmm?

 

7. How did primitive societies have incredible knowledge of the galaxy and stars without even telescopes? This makes zero sense- There are accurate depictions of our solar system from ancient civilizations who could have had no way to discern a star in the night from a planet, let alone the order of the planets, and location relative to the sun. People don't ask how did they know this?

 

8. How about advanced mathematics and engineering? Did we just go from caves one day and somehow magically understand geometry, trigonometry, engineering and math? No one asks the "how". In my view, someone may have tought us - ie "gods" Did any of you just wake up one day and know calculus? No someone taught you, follow the chain, how taught the first person who came from the cave? were they just geniuses? 

 

9. The vatican has talked about alien life and that it doesn't defeat the argument of God, they have astronomers why?

 

10. Why so much focus on the question of 'are we alone'? So much so to the point where mainstream scientists finally acknowledge the odds of life in the universe are immense and we likely are not. So if we can accept that as reality, why is it hard to take a step back and say maybe our gods are just other beings that taught us? Abduction /ufos who knows and that's not my focus here.

 

These are just some of the real facts that are out there. I know many like to fall back on jokes, meme's etc and those who think about this topic are ridiculed, but I find it to be a serious scientific, historical and anthropological question. The sad part is shows like ancient aliens start off interesting then veer to nonsense, defeating the debate. And its odd that people can't question this with serious scientific debate but at the same time they believe in some magical being in 'heaven' that they pray to every night, who apparently listens to them, will send them up or down when they die , all based on a book some crazy guy could have written at the dawn of time. 

 

In my view, the idea that "god" or the "gods' were simply beings from another place with advanced technology makes alot more sense than imaginary beings floating above us. If you think about the depictions of the Gods, how they were explained, how primitive people would have described them, well it sounds alot like beings coming down to this planet from space. 

 

Love to hear people's thoughts about the probability of this.

[Russ]

23 minutes ago, EuroCanuck said:

Let's not degrade this into meme's of that guy with the funny hair, although I am sure some with the maturity level of a toddler will find a way.

First thing I thought of when I read the title, not going to lie.

 

Either way I believe they are out there in some shape or form.  There is some insane structures/carvings into mountains that are so picture perfect by modern day standards that its hard to believe that joe blow was able to someone carve stone picture perfectly thousands or years ago in massively large spaces.  There is just so much information that is known today with such advanced technology that was also known however many years ago with such a lack of technology and understanding that I find it hard to refute the idea that something out there wasn't helping humans along.

 

I have never heard of that negative blood part, thats interesting.

[Aladeen]

I personally believe the evidence is overwhelming and to outright dismiss the theory is the equivalent to burying one’s head in the sand.

 

As much as the guys on ancient aliens are ridiculed there will be a day will they will be vindicated. Hopefully in their/our lifetimes.

 

Truths go through three phases:

 

1. Ridicule

2. Strongly/Violently Opposed

3. Acceptance as self evident truth

 

As far as the ancient alien theory is concerned I would say we are transitioning between the first and second phase.

 

Of course undeniable proof such as first contact would leapfrog the 2nd phase altogether.

[luckylager]

I love this topic. 

Artwork, written and oral histories of the Summarians, Maya etc are all very interesting. Not to mention the numerous unexplainable pyramid structures found submerged in over 200ft of water.

 

It's not only these "aliens" that intrigue me, but what I believe is a massive missing piece of our history as humans on earth.

 

Gobekli Tepe was built a few thousand years before the end of the last ice age.

There's evidence that the Sphynx is actually over 10000yrs old and it's face was re-carved during dynastic Egypt.

 

History is written by the victor. There are many ancient wisdoms and mysteries that we are kept from knowing.

 

[Hugor Hill]

1) How about a source or two?

 

2) Buddhism has no angels. Taoism has no angels. There are probably many other religions with no angels.

 

3) Doesn't matter what they would call them. It implies nothing.

 

4) It's more like 24 hours and 11 minutes. A far more probable explanation might be that the Egyptians who devised the 24 day were off. 

 

5) This theory is wacked. There is no science behind it.

 

6) There is no missing link. It is something anti-evolution people came up with.

 

7) I don't believe ancient people had accurate depiction of the solar system. Source?

 

8) No. People did not wake up one day and 'suddenly' gain these knowledge. They were developed over time. Did you know how the Egyptians were able to transport these gigantic stones across sand to the sites of the pyramids? Do some reading.

 

9) Nobody rational cares about what the vatican says about aliens.

 

10) Yes, there are probably other life forms some where out there, but it doesn't mean that someone had been here in the past. If ancient advanced aliens had left us physical evidence of advanced science and technology, we would've discovered actual proof by now.

 

Your 'facts' are not facts. They are ideas and theories that do not pass scientific, historical and rational analysis.

There has never been any gods in physical form, alien or otherwise.

 

 

[EuroCanuck]

3 minutes ago, Aladeen said:

I personally believe the evidence is overwhelming and to outright dismiss the theory is the equivalent to burying one’s head in the sand.

 

As much as the guys on ancient aliens are ridiculed there will be a day will they will be vindicated. Hopefully in their/our lifetimes.

 

Truths go through three phases:

 

1. Ridicule

2. Strongly/Violently Opposed

3. Acceptance as self evident truth

 

As far as the ancient alien theory is concerned I would say we are transitioning between the first and second phase.

 

Of course undeniable proof such as first contact would leapfrog the 2nd phase altogether.

Well part of the ridicule is often to discredit those who have the view in order to prevent people from looking at it seriously- this is the 'ad hominem' defense of those who are often scared of truth being found. Discredit those saying it, such that people ignore the truths, or even legitimate areas of research that should be investigated in their words. Not to go conspiracy theory here, but the same issue occured with "911 truthers' - there is alot to that sad event that didn't add up. What we know is clearly the truth as its been explained is certainly not the full truth, and there are too many discrepancies from scientific fact for it to be the actual truth, but you say that and you're a conspiracy theorist. Why? Because this prevents real scientific research.

 

On this topic, Ancient Aliens actually discredits itself (sadly) by straying too far and going into wild supposition too often (probably to stretch out the series and make money). A recent episode actually had John Podesta on it, this tells you this is now coming 'mainstream' and more acceptable.

 

Finally, religion historically was always about power and control, not about simply values and morals, to me there is a reason religious groups have always fought against this view as it would and could historically undermine that power they had. The comments by the Vatican are the most telling to me, it means they have accepted that at some point soon we will know we are not alone and they cannot hide from it, as such, they 'got out in front of it', and suggest the existence of alien life and the idea of god cant still co-exist.

[EuroCanuck]

8 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

1) How about a source or two?

 

2) Buddhism has no angels. Taoism has no angels. There are probably many other religions with no angels.

 

3) Doesn't matter what they would call them. It implies nothing.

 

4) It's more like 24 hours and 11 minutes. A far more probable explanation might be that the Egyptians who devised the 24 day were off. 

 

5) This theory is wacked. There is no science behind it.

 

6) There is no missing link. It is something anti-evolution people came up with.

 

7) I don't believe ancient people had accurate depiction of the solar system. Source?

 

8) No. People did not wake up one day and 'suddenly' gain these knowledge. They were developed over time. Did you know how the Egyptians were able to transport these gigantic stones to the sites of the pyramids? Do some reading.

 

9) Nobody rational cares about what the vatican says about Aliens.

 

10) Yes, there are probably other live forms some where out there, but it doesn't mean that someone had been here in the past. If ancient advanced aliens had left us physical evidence of advanced science and technology, we would've discovered actual proof by now.

 

Your 'facts' are not facts. They are ideas and theories that do not pass scientific, historical and rational analysis.

There has never been any gods in physical form, alien or otherwise.

 

 

Do you believe in god? alot of people do - I don't believe in imaginary beings. real beings make alot more sense to me

 

Your 'responses' suggest you summarily dismiss things because I didn't write a full thesis here with citings. None of what I just said is 'fiction' and can easily be found via google with legitimate and credible sources.

 

Suggest you try it before summarily dismissing things, perhaps you're going to church tomorrow and my suggestion unnverved you. If so, sorry, not the intention but I don't believe as I said, in magical beings.

 

Here's a start - no missing link? LOL that's one of the easiest

 

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170517-we-have-still-not-found-the-missing-link-between-us-and-apes

 

Because some religions dont have angels, those who describe angels coming to earth (the three largest religons in the world are therefore 'wrong'?) nice theory

 

Here's some basics on Mayan knowledge of our solar system, I guess they just figured this out by staring at the night sky? LOL....And there is record of earlier civilizations knowing as much or more

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_astronomy

 

By the way, closed minds never achieve anything.

[luckylager]

@Hugor HillHill

 

Post deleted. I was sun stroked, dehydrated, grumpy and not thinking clearly.

 

@Hugor Hill, apologies acting like a child

[Toni Zamboni]

lol...a religion thread disguised as an alien thread...have fun boys and girls.

[nucklehead]

3 minutes ago, Toni Zamboni said:

lol...a religion thread disguised as an alien thread...have fun boys and girls.

belief in aliens is a religion so that's a redundant point. Jesus was one anyhow

[Master 112]

i don't have time to respond to everything, but iirc our appendix has a role in our immune system and as such isn't a 'useless organ.'

 

and if it were a useless organ, i still don't see how it's so hard to believe that it's simply a relic in our genetic makeup. the organisms we evolved from probably had more use for it?

[EuroCanuck]

6 minutes ago, Toni Zamboni said:

lol...a religion thread disguised as an alien thread...have fun boys and girls.

not really- but ok....sorry it hurts your brain to question

[Hobble]

58 minutes ago, EuroCanuck said:

4. Science has shown we as humans are ill fitted for this planet. We walk upright when other animals do not, we actually work on a 25 hour circadian clock not 24 hours. We have an appendix which is effectively a useless organ? If we evolved on this planet why do we have useless organs? We have illnesses and bone/structural/physical ailments that are not existent in other animals - this comes from stresses on our bodies from both walking upright and gravity etc. Why do other animals on this planet not experience this? if we evolved on this planet why have our bodies not evolved to address these chronic issues?

 

5. RH negative blood -15% of the population - does not trace back to any known animal on this planet.  If man and ape had evolved from a common ancestor, their blood would have evolved the same way. Blood factors are transmitted with much more exactitude than any other characteristic. All other earthly primates also have this Rh factor. So, if all mankind evolved from the same ancestor, their blood should be compatible.  If we had all evolved from the same ancestor, we would all have the same blood. We don’t! RH Positive blood can be traced back to the Rhesus monkey and all other primates, but RH negative blood CANNOT. In fact, it cannot be traced anywhere else in nature. This fact puts into question the whole theory of evolution.

 

6. Where is the missing link? DNA doesn't 'break' - Scientists don't talk about this but they just say we 'evolved' but how did our DNA change from ape? No one can explain this but we 'gloss over it' like, meh its just accepted. Well if science can't explain it why are we so quick to ignore potential reasons? Ie maybe someone 'changed the sequence" - someone with knowledge of DNA sequencing and gene manipulation? Things we are just learning today....hmm?

 

8. How about advanced mathematics and engineering? Did we just go from caves one day and somehow magically understand geometry, trigonometry, engineering and math? No one asks the "how". In my view, someone may have tought us - ie "gods" Did any of you just wake up one day and know calculus? No someone taught you, follow the chain, how taught the first person who came from the cave? were they just geniuses? 

 

 

 

These are just some of the real facts that are out there. 

While I do have fun postulating about stuff like this, you aren't really providing any "real facts", merely just the absence of any concrete evidence. That isn't the same as facts.

 

While many of your points obviously can't be disproven, I feel that the ones highlighted above can be easily argued. Don't have too much time to go into it though.

 

4. Why are humans ill-fitted for the planet? We're practically the definition of adaptability. We only seem unique because we've either killed off, out-competed or absorbed every other hominin species into our gene pool (ex. Neanderthals, denisovians). Can't argue that circadian clock thing, but I believe the appendix used to be used for enzymes that helped with digesting food high in cellulose, which we don't need anymore with the discovery of fire/hunting. Can't speak to your other assertions, but obviously being one of the only bipedal mammals means we would deal with some unique ailments.

 

5. Don't know the history of Rh- blood, but it could have been a unique mutation in human evolution or taken from one of the previous hominin species we co-mated with. And all human blood doesn't need to be compatible, that is what the point of mutations are. Blood types could have evolved due to selective pressures from disease.

 

6. Our DNA changed over hundreds of thousands and millions of years. You can wait ages for a selectively dominant mutation to occur, but if it causes a huge selective advantage, then it will be quickly passed through the generations.

 

8. These complex systems and tools weren't devised by one person. They were built upon and modified over hundreds of years by unique minds.

 

 

I do think that alien visitors is scientifically more plausible than an all powerful God being and angelic henchmen, just because it is based on science.

 

What I think is more plausible is that intelligent humanity could be older than we currently know, and perhaps a series of cataclysms have reset humanity once or twice along the way, having us needing to "start from scratch".

 

 

[EuroCanuck]

2 minutes ago, Two one one said:

i don't have time to respond to everything, but iirc our appendix has a role in our immune system and as such isn't a 'useless organ.'

 

and if it were a useless organ, i still don't see how it's so hard to believe that it's simply a relic in our genetic makeup. the organisms we evolved from probably had more use for it?

evolution would remove the need for it...that's the whole theory of evolution. you cannot argue evolution then say it picks and chooses 

[EuroCanuck]

12 minutes ago, Hobble said:

While I do have fun postulating about stuff like this, you aren't really providing any "real facts", merely just the absence of any concrete evidence. That isn't the same as facts.

 

While many of your points obviously can't be disproven, I feel that the ones highlighted above can be easily argued. Don't have too much time to go into it though.

 

4. Why are humans ill-fitted for the planet? We're practically the definition of adaptability. We only seem unique because we've either killed off, out-competed or absorbed every other hominin species into our gene pool (ex. Neanderthals, denisovians). Can't argue that circadian clock thing, but I believe the appendix used to be used for enzymes that helped with digesting food high in cellulose, which we don't need anymore with the discovery of fire/hunting. Can't speak to your other assertions, but obviously being one of the only bipedal mammals means we would deal with some unique ailments.

 

5. Don't know the history of Rh- blood, but it could have been a unique mutation in human evolution or taken from one of the previous hominin species we co-mated with. And all human blood doesn't need to be compatible, that is what the point of mutations are. Blood types could have evolved due to selective pressures from disease.

 

6. Our DNA changed over hundreds of thousands and millions of years. You can wait ages for a selectively dominant mutation to occur, but if it causes a huge selective advantage, then it will be quickly passed through the generations.

 

8. These complex systems and tools weren't devised by one person. They were built upon and modified over hundreds of years by unique minds.

 

 

I do think that alien visitors is scientifically more plausible than an all powerful God being and angelic henchmen, just because it is based on science.

 

What I think is more plausible is that intelligent humanity could be older than we currently know, and perhaps a series of cataclysms have reset humanity once or twice along the way, having us needing to "start from scratch".

 

 

fair points, but if we evolved on this planet, why did we evolve as bi pedal if its not the most efficient manner for a body to move on this planet and creates chronic skeletal issues, again, evolution would mean the body evolves to address its weakness? you don't ask the why's? its easy to say the appendix isn't needed anymore, and hasn't been for centuries. So if we believe in evolution the body would evolve, it would never have evolved to bipedal for certain, if you believe in the theory of evolution.

 

I would also argue your point on our existence on this planet being longer than we know, is plausible (and likely), but where is the historical record of the civilizations, and their technology that would have enabled them to teach prior to cataclysms?  There would be 'some' record somewhere, of bones, of technologies etc. 100% of everything doesn't just disappear. i do believe we are older than we know but that does not imply we had the technologies and knowledge to know the science and math we did, and if they did, there would be 'some record' somewhere.

[Hugor Hill]

35 minutes ago, EuroCanuck said:

1) Because some religions dont have angels, those who describe angels coming to earth (the three largest religons in the world are therefore 'wrong'?) nice theory

 

2) Here's some basics on Mayan knowledge of our solar system, I guess they just figured this out by staring at the night sky? LOL....And there is record of earlier civilizations knowing as much or more

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_astronomy

 

1) Yes they are. In fact, they are all wrong. There are no angels. You reek of ethnocentrism.

 

2) According to your own citation, yes, they did figured this out by staring into the night sky. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Quote

 

Maya astronomy was naked-eye astronomy based on the observations of the azimuths of the rising and setting of heavenly bodies.^[10] City planning and alignment was often arranged in line with astronomical paths and events.^[11]

Many wells located in Mayan ruins were also observatories of the zenithal passage of the sun.^[12]

One of the most studied sites for the topic of Mayan astronomy is the Caracol at Chichen Itza. The Caracol is an observatory aligned to follow the path of Venus through the year.^[13] The grand staircase leading to the once cylindrical structure deviates 27.5 degrees from the alignment of the surrounding buildings to align with the northern extreme of Venus; the northeast-southwest diagonal of the site aligns with the sunrise of the summer solstice and the sunset of the winter solstice.^[14]

 

 

 

Oh, and here is your missing 'missing' link:

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/whats-missing-link-180968327/

 

 

 

[Slegr]

Cool topic. I haven't seen the shows yet - are they on Netflix?

I often wondered if life as we know it may have actually come from Mars or Venus. These planets are old, and Venus was probably like Earth once upon a time. Same with Mars. 

[Hobble]

17 minutes ago, EuroCanuck said:

fair points, but if we evolved on this planet, why did we evolve as bi pedal if its not the most efficient manner for a body to move on this planet and creates chronic skeletal issues, again, evolution would mean the body evolves to address its weakness? you don't ask the why's? its easy to say the appendix isn't needed anymore, and hasn't been for centuries. So if we believe in evolution the body would evolve, it would never have evolved to bipedal for certain, if you believe in the theory of evolution.

 

I would also argue your point on our existence on this planet being longer than we know, is plausible (and likely), but where is the historical record of the civilizations, and their technology that would have enabled them to teach prior to cataclysms?  There would be 'some' record somewhere, of bones, of technologies etc. 100% of everything doesn't just disappear. i do believe we are older than we know but that does not imply we had the technologies and knowledge to know the science and math we did, and if they did, there would be 'some record' somewhere.

I wasn't implying ancient humans were walking around with cell phones and nukes. I just thought they could have had some greater knowledge of math/culture/science that we don't yet appreciate.

 

As to the bolded, we likely evolved to be bipedal because it allowed us to look further for predators/food in tall grasses of African savanah, and would also allow us to pass through rivers easier. Becoming bipedal also freed up the hands to manipulate rocks and sticks for tools, holding babies, sewing clothes, etc. Again, we weren't the only hominin species around 100,000 years ago, so it was obviously advantageous.

 

I don't know what chronic skeletal issues you're referring to. As far as I know, a healthy human at the peak of their life isn't incapacitated by skeletal issues. Our bodies evolved to have peak performance/health during our peak reproductive years. In recent history, humans have begun living longer and become more decrepit with age. Unfortunately, we don't reproduce in our 40-60's, so their is no reproductive selective pressure to maintain healthy bodies into the later ages.

 

Animals don't evolve to address every weakness, only weakness that impair their ability to survive and reproduce. Its why humans will likely never evolve separate openings for eating/drinking and breathing. Humans will forever be cursed with the possibility of choking on spit/food.

[EuroCanuck]

18 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

1) Yes they are. In fact, they are all wrong. There are no angels. You reek of ethnocentrism.

 

2) According to your own citation, yes, they did figured this out by staring into the night sky. Thanks for proving my point.

 

 

 

I reek hey? your pathetic attempts at insults show anger and a closed mind. Oh and I never said there were angels, I am not religious but those books of religion are explaining beings they 'see as angels' that's the point. Not sure what your point is by saying 'there are no angels' - are you all knowing? LOL seems in your mind you are. I'll call you mr omniscient now your grace!

 

Those mayans must have been some damn smart people to look up at the sky with their bare eyes and figure out mars, saturn, venus etc lol....dude - what do you expect wiki to say? that they had help? wow just wow. I'm curious, do you think you could look up at the night sky with zero knowledge of what you're looking at and figure it out? LOL ya....doubt that son.

 

Good luck in life i have no time for children who can't actual open their minds and consider alternatives. Here's some friendly career advice. Don't choose any career where you actually have to question and have an inquisitive mind. It seems you like to believe only what you're told and are scared to question. Always questioning is how great scientific leaps are made. 

 

Remember people were burned alive for suggesting the earth revolved around the sun, and it was also conventional thinking that said the earth was the center of the universe and was flat.

 

Conventional wisdom isn't always right and the only way to test it, is to keep questioning it and look at inconsistencies.

[EuroCanuck]

1 minute ago, Slegr said:

Cool topic. I haven't seen the shows yet - are they on Netflix?

I often wondered if life as we know it may have actually come from Mars or Venus. These planets are old, and Venus was probably like Earth once upon a time. Same with Mars. 

A&E but they veered away from the scientific and anthropological record into sensationalism as I said, almost defeating their own argument as they are then viewed as nuts. I do wonder what our fascination with mars is (its dry, desolate, and living their now even with the fanciful ideas is not smart), and perhaps what you suggest is actually the reason.