An Intelligent Debate on Ancient Alien Theory

[189lb enforcers?]

50 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

 

 

 

Your 'facts' are not facts.

 

They are ideas and theories that do not pass scientific, historical and rational analysis.

kettle meets the pot, in 3, 2, 1...

 

 

50 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

There has never been any gods in physical form, alien or otherwise.

 

 

 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

I’m sure once we are able to play nice in our own little sandbox, we will get an invitation to another. 

 

We’ve only just started with the scientific method. The answers are out there.

 

I think that we have been around much longer than what we are told to believe. I also like to think that NA has been inhabited for a long, long time going back before the last ice age even. Once we explore the 400’ below sea level areas where ancient humans or other primates might have lived, things will get interesting. 

 

Earth is full of crazy, but similar ancient technologies and astonishing artifacts. 

“God did it” will no longer be the only and final answer to inquiry. 

[JM_]

2 hours ago, EuroCanuck said:

 

Love to hear people's thoughts about the probability of this.

So I'm just going to touch on what I think are the key failings to the alien theory.

 

1. People are smart, they have been for a very long time. The idea that people 1000s of years ago didn't have the ingenuity to do some great stuff with architecture simply has no basis. We didnn't need aliens to drop and and show us how to carve rock, move rock or learn how to trace the motion of stars and planets. People did that just fine on their own. How did people learn about the movement of the stars? They looked. They wrote stuff down. They ascertained that the motions they saw meant certain things about the universe. Its logic, not aliens. 

 

2. Evolution and bipedalism. You're assuming that "efficiency" would produce something other than how we developed... and you know this how? Given the millions of years of fossil records of bipedal ancestors we have that just makes no practical sense.

 

3. Similar stories in other regions. There are many things that occur in human mythology. There are many cultures that have 'great flood' stories. Or virgin birth of deities. And on and on. It isn't evidence of aliens, its evidence of a commonality in human imagination. 

 

4. Math and engineering. We have a great deal of written history showing how all of this developed.... not sure where you are getting the idea that all of this was just dropped on us one day. In smaller scale societies people were also able to devise and hand down engineering knowledge, e.g., the engineering needed to build a kayak by ancient Inuit people 1500 years ago was a beautiful piece of engineering, an amazing solution to their environment and materials at hand. By suggesting some kind of parachuted in alien knowledge you are dismissing the achievements of people like this. 

 

There simply isn't a need for an ancient alien theory to describe what people have achieved or to explain evolutionary biology, thats the biggest flaw with this topic. 

[Aladeen]

26 minutes ago, EuroCanuck said:

I reek hey? your pathetic attempts at insults show anger and a closed mind.

 

They must have been some damn smart people to look up at the sky with their bare eyes and figure out mars, saturn, venus etc lol....dude - what do you expect wiki to say? that they had help? wow just wow

 

Good luck in life i have no time for children who can't actual open their minds and consider alternatives. You want to be 'right' and sadly you're not.

I won’t respond directly to hugor as I have no desire to get into a forum argument. All you can do is say what you believe and that don’t worry about those who oppose it with anger.

 

Something that I find interesting is that in reality opposition to the ancient alien theory can never be proved to be the case, only the affirmative stance on it. So that alone tells me the odds are that it is true in some shape or form.

 

I will comment on what he says about a bunch of religions not having angels and that is in reality incorrect.

 

Buddhism/Hinduism/Jainism - Devas and Asuras 

Sumerians/Babalonians - Annunaki

Shintos - Kami, Tengu and Oni

Egyptians, Mayans, Aztecs, Incas - Their Many various deities

Taoism - Xian “the immortals” - They rode dragons as an FYI. Also other Chinese religions rooted in Taoism use things like firecrackers to ward of guei or demons.

Sikh - Puri

 

Mormons 

Christians

Judism/Hermetic Qabala

Muslim/Islam 

Baha’i

Jehovah’s Witnesses

Wiccan

Satanic Church

 

This last group all believes in the same angels pretty much.

 

Not to mention smaller localized religions like that of the Dogon tribe and their oral records of their “sky brothers” from Sirius in Orion’s Belt. Interestingly enough their oral tradition says that this is a binary system something we have only realized in the last half century or so.

 

Or the shamanistic religions within the aboriginal peoples of Australia who believe in the “Dreaming Beings” who created life on this planet with different individual dream beings responsible for different people and areas of the planet.

 

Or the First Nations religious beliefs in guardian spirits, tricksters and shape shifters or some believing in the “sky woman” giving birth to the first woman.

 

 

[EuroCanuck]

14 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

So I'm just going to touch on what I think are the key failings to the alien theory.

 

1. People are smart, they have been for a very long time. The idea that people 1000s of years ago didn't have the ingenuity to do some great stuff with architecture simply has no basis. We didnn't need aliens to drop and and show us how to carve rock, move rock or learn how to trace the motion of stars and planets. People did that just fine on their own. How did people learn about the movement of the stars? They looked. They wrote stuff down. They ascertained that the motions they saw meant certain things about the universe. Its logic, not aliens. 

 

2. Evolution and bipedalism. You're assuming that "efficiency" would produce something other than how we developed... and you know this how? Given the millions of years of fossil records of bipedal ancestors we have that just makes no practical sense.

 

3. Similar stories in other regions. There are many things that occur in human mythology. There are many cultures that have 'great flood' stories. Or virgin birth of deities. And on and on. It isn't evidence of aliens, its evidence of a commonality in human imagination. 

 

4. Math and engineering. We have a great deal of written history showing how all of this developed.... not sure where you are getting the idea that all of this was just dropped on us one day. In smaller scale societies people were also able to devise and hand down engineering knowledge, e.g., the engineering needed to build a kayak by ancient Inuit people 1500 years ago was a beautiful piece of engineering, an amazing solution to their environment and materials at hand. By suggesting some kind of parachuted in alien knowledge you are dismissing the achievements of people like this. 

 

There simply isn't a need for an ancient alien theory to describe what people have achieved or to explain evolutionary biology, thats the biggest flaw with this topic. 

I guess I question how man made the intellectual leap from cave to looking up in the sky and being able to discern the difference between a star and a planet and knowing how they moved and in what order they aligned in our solar system. As I said to another person, I bet 99% of people with  high school education, who know the order of the planets couldn't even tell  you the order, let alone identify them in they night sky with a bare eye.

 

I personally think, based on your comments you are applying a level of intelligence we know today and moving backwards and saying well they could figure it out. But in my view, you ignore what 'their starting point' was. ie ZERO  knowledge of even what a star or planet was! this is the point, cave man to somehow knowing advanced mathematics over time. 

 

If it were that simple, children would be born speaking and knowing calculus today based on evolution my friend. The leaps of knowledge required in such a short period of history do not add up, at least in my view. But I respect your skeptical view.

 

Devices like this were not (at least in my view) natural outgrowths of human ingenuity- this thing is from 100bc and has machined gears my friend....sorry but where are the machines that machined this then? where are the other sources that created things like this. And not just the knowledge and skill to build it, but rather the knowledge of what it was 'for'....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

[JM_]

7 minutes ago, EuroCanuck said:

I guess I question how man made the intellectual leap from cave to looking up in the sky and being able to discern the difference between a star and a planet and knowing how they moved and in what order they aligned in our solar system.

 

I personally think, based on your comments you are applying a level of intelligence we know today and moving backwards and saying well they could figure it out. But in my view, you ignore what 'their starting point' was. ie ZERO  knowledge of even what a star or planet was! this is the point, cave man to somehow knowing advanced mathematics over time. 

 

If it were that simple, children would be born speaking and knowing calculus today based on evolution my friend. The leaps of knowledge required in such a short period of history do not add up, at least in my view.

No, I'm not. We made the leap by starting with what we had at hand. e.g., we have evidence of the first hand tools being made about 2 million years ago. Then we figured out fire. Started learning how to make art. How to make iteration after iteration of better homes.  

 

Mayans tracking the motion of stars - or whatever they called them when they first took note of the motions - postulated hey, maybe those things are similar to what we live on. Its human imagination at work.

 

That last  sentence makes no sense. We are born with a capacity for learning, not a head full of data. 

[EuroCanuck]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

No, I'm not. We made the leap by starting with what we had at hand. e.g., we have evidence of the first hand tools being made about 2 million years ago. Then we figured out fire. Started learning how to make art. How to make iteration after iteration of better homes.  

 

That last  sentence makes no sense. We are born with a capacity for learning, not a head full of data. 

Learn yes, can you learn the levels of science shown by early man, by simply looking at the sky? if you do, i'm impressed

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

[JM_]

1 minute ago, EuroCanuck said:

Learn yes, can you learn the levels of science shown by early man, by simply looking at the sky? if you do, i'm impressed

yes you can. In order to track the motions and learn that they are predictable, a certain level of math makes itself apparent. People can also learn many basic engineering principles by trial and error. None of this requires an alien. 

 

We have millions of years of fossil records showing how our ancestors learned over time how to manipulate their environment and learn to understand things like the motion of objects in the sky. They knew there was a sun, and some kind of dirt we live on. It didn't take a huge leap to wonder if all those other shiny things up there were similar.

 

 

[EuroCanuck]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yes you can. In order to track the motions and learn that they are predictable, a certain level of math makes itself apparent. People can also learn many basic engineering principles by trial and error. None of this requires an alien. 

 

We have millions of years of fossil records showing how our ancestors learned over time how to manipulate their environment and learn to understand things like the motion of objects in the sky. They knew there was a sun, and some kind of dirt we live on. It didn't take a huge leap to wonder if all those other shiny things up there were similar.

 

 

so you think these ancient people could look at the sky, discern what is a star vs a planet and know which ones are in our solar system? cool

 

I bet you cant do that, nor most people on this site, who don't have a clue what up there is a star or a planet to start with.

 

We agree to disagree...I keep asking why, why did they look up there, how did they discern the difference, this is not normal nor simple, so much so as I said 99.5% of people today are incapable of this probably even with a telescope and knowledge of our solar system sir.

 

My view is quite simple. Suggesting early man somehow made these intellectual leaps that even man today doesn't understand tells me one thing, we don't have all the answers. So to summarily dismiss that the could have had help lacks an open mind.

 

We all had help learning calculus, astronomy etc, somehow early man had the intellectual capacity to learn all this with no established mathematical basis, no 'starting point/library of knowledge to draw on'. to me i ask how.

[Aladeen]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

So I'm just going to touch on what I think are the key failings to the alien theory.

 

1. People are smart, they have been for a very long time. The idea that people 1000s of years ago didn't have the ingenuity to do some great stuff with architecture simply has no basis. We didnn't need aliens to drop and and show us how to carve rock, move rock or learn how to trace the motion of stars and planets. People did that just fine on their own. How did people learn about the movement of the stars? They looked. They wrote stuff down. They ascertained that the motions they saw meant certain things about the universe. Its logic, not aliens. 

 

2. Evolution and bipedalism. You're assuming that "efficiency" would produce something other than how we developed... and you know this how? Given the millions of years of fossil records of bipedal ancestors we have that just makes no practical sense.

 

3. Similar stories in other regions. There are many things that occur in human mythology. There are many cultures that have 'great flood' stories. Or virgin birth of deities. And on and on. It isn't evidence of aliens, its evidence of a commonality in human imagination. 

 

4. Math and engineering. We have a great deal of written history showing how all of this developed.... not sure where you are getting the idea that all of this was just dropped on us one day. In smaller scale societies people were also able to devise and hand down engineering knowledge, e.g., the engineering needed to build a kayak by ancient Inuit people 1500 years ago was a beautiful piece of engineering, an amazing solution to their environment and materials at hand. By suggesting some kind of parachuted in alien knowledge you are dismissing the achievements of people like this. 

 

There simply isn't a need for an ancient alien theory to describe what people have achieved or to explain evolutionary biology, thats the biggest flaw with this topic. 

1. People are smart and if human intelligence can explain away 99% of the technological marvels that existed in the the ancient world that wouldn’t surprise me but look up puma punku or the dropa stones. Those things couldn’t have been made by smart people they needed precise technological equipment such as lasers to have been created.

 

2. Evolution is slow... there is no doubt that if that is our understanding of evolution then it is flawed because there exists a quantum leap between primates and human beings. And not just biological evolution but you would have us believe that 10,000 or so years ago we were scraping by surviving in caves and then all of a sudden organizing and building massive stone structures just cause? 

 

3. Your third point almost shows that their must have been contact between religions and cultures in the past. So either you believe in a human collective consciousness that imagined contact with gods/angels etc in the past or they physically recorded what they saw with their ability to describe what they saw. So many cultures have a flood story because there is no doubt there was one. They recorded what happened. Maybe not exactly as it happened but within their capability to describe what they were actually witness to. As you say  early man was smart. Why lie about a flood? Why lie about contact with supernatural beings?

 

4. Much of our engineering has come from studying these ancient structures almost like reverse engineering technology. So although we may not have been handed the information directly from a green Martian in a flying saucer if the ancient alien theory is correct that is exactly where we got our information from. As far as math is concerned we do have a written record of it’s development but so what? It’s not like anyone thinks aliens are doing our math homework for us but you have to realize the math needed to build things like the pyramids and other monolithic structures didn’t have that development record to show how they knew the mathematical equations and formulas needed to ensure such fine precision in the actual building of them. 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, EuroCanuck said:

so you think these ancient people could look at the sky, discern what is a star vs a planet and know which ones are in our solar system? cool

 

I bet you cant do that, nor most people on this site, who don't have a clue what up there is a star or a planet to start with.

 

We agree to disagree...I keep asking why, why did they look up there, how did they discern the difference, this is not normal nor simple, so much so as I said 99.5% of people today are incapable of this probably even with a telescope and knowledge of our solar system sir.

Yes I do think people were and are that smart.  And I don't agree, I'm saying you have no logical basis to say 1. people didn't have the capacity to do what we've done, or 2. that an alien provided the info. 

 

Why did people look up? Because they were smart and curious. Why else? Have you ever seen the night sky away from the city? Its quite something. 

 

Here's an example for you of how some basic logic and careful observations can lead to some great information. Eratosthenes figured out 2,000 years ago that the earth was round by using a stick. Not alien tech, a stick. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/ancient-greeks-proved-earth-round-eratosthenes-alexandria-syene-summer-solstice-a8131376.html

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Aladeen said:

1. People are smart and if human intelligence can explain away 99% of the technological marvels that existed in the the ancient world that wouldn’t surprise me but look up puma punku or the dropa stones. Those things couldn’t have been made by smart people they needed precise technological equipment such as lasers to have been created.

 

2. Evolution is slow... there is no doubt that if that is our understanding of evolution then it is flawed because there exists a quantum leap between primates and human beings. And not just biological evolution but you would have us believe that 10,000 or so years ago we were scraping by surviving in caves and then all of a sudden organizing and building massive stone structures just cause? 

 

3. Your third point almost shows that their must have been contact between religions and cultures in the past. So either you believe in a human collective consciousness that imagined contact with gods/angels etc in the past or they physically recorded what they saw with their ability to describe what they saw. So many cultures have a flood story because there is no doubt there was one. They recorded what happened. Maybe not exactly as it happened but within their capability to describe what they were actually witness to. As you say  early man was smart. Why lie about a flood? Why lie about contact with supernatural beings?

 

4. Much of our engineering has come from studying these ancient structures almost like reverse engineering technology. So although we may not have been handed the information directly from a green Martian in a flying saucer if the ancient alien theory is correct that is exactly where we got our information from. As far as math is concerned we do have a written record of it’s development but so what? It’s not like anyone thinks aliens are doing our math homework for us but you have to realize the math needed to build things like the pyramids and other monolithic structures didn’t have that development record to show how they knew the mathematical equations and formulas needed to ensure such fine precision in the actual building of them. 

1. "couldn't have been made"? of course they could. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131106-how-ancient-people-moved-huge-structures-archaeology/

 

2. Caves? I think you're missing the development of agriculture.

 

3. People imagining metaphysical beings is evidence of imagination, not real beings. You simply can't make that leap. Everything we imagined in every religion isn't based in fact. 

 

4. We got the engineering information from our own experience. Again, no alien needed. 

[EuroCanuck]

11 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

Yes I do think people were and are that smart.  And I don't agree, I'm saying you have no logical basis to say 1. people didn't have the capacity to do what we've done, or 2. that an alien provided the info. 

 

Why did people look up? Because they were smart and curious. Why else? Have you ever seen the night sky away from the city? Its quite something. 

 

Here's an example for you of how some basic logic and careful observations can lead to some great information. Eratosthenes figured out 2,000 years ago that the earth was round by using a stick. Not alien tech, a stick. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/ancient-greeks-proved-earth-round-eratosthenes-alexandria-syene-summer-solstice-a8131376.html

Who helped all these people with their theorums? Sadly man doesn't come out of the womb in ancient life and say hey let me invent geometry, mathematics, and engineering sir.

 

You again, apply our knowledge today and say see they used math! Well how did MATH START SIR..that's the question, how do you go from probably counting your sticks to Pythagorean thearum to calculus to identifying stars vs planets (which you have avoided I see). Again, work backwards and look even before the greeks and

ask, how in the world did these people "teach themselves" this with no basis upon which to build from. The sumerians were as far ahead as the greeks if not more so sir...

 

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/01/math-whizzes-ancient-babylon-figured-out-forerunner-calculus

 

they figured out the motion of jupiter sir, with their eyes and no mathematical library of knowledge and no teachers? ok cool

 

1. You dont just figure out what a planet is vs a star by staring at the sky without first knowing the are planets and stars

 

2. You have to be able to discern which is a star and which is a planet, and that the planets move and stars do not

 

3. You have to have a basis in advanced mathematics to come up with even these IDEAS to begin with

 

4. You are ignoring all the steps required to 'get there' and saying well they were smart they could figure it out. Yes if they had the basis upon which to build those theories.

 

We disagree thats fine.

[Aladeen]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

1. "couldn't have been made"? of course they could. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131106-how-ancient-people-moved-huge-structures-archaeology/

 

2. Caves? I think you're missing the development of agriculture.

 

3. People imagining metaphysical beings is evidence of imagination, not real beings. You simply can't make that leap. Everything we imagined in every religion isn't based in fact. 

 

4. We got the engineering information from our own experience. Again, no alien needed. 

Puma punku and the droga stones have nothing to do with “moving rocks” my friend. 

 

At least read and look into what I say if you actually want to have a debate about this it until then I’m not going to bother.

[JM_]

1 minute ago, EuroCanuck said:

Who helped all these people with their theorums? Sadly man doesn't come out of the womb in ancient life and say hey let me invent geometry, mathematics, and engineering sir.

 

You again, apply our knowledge today and say see they used math! Well how did MATH START SIR..that's the question, how do you go from probably counting your sticks to Pythagorean thearum to calculus to identifying stars vs planets (which you have avoided I see). Again, work backwards and look even before the greeks and

ask, how in the world did these people "teach themselves" this with no basis upon which to build from. The sumerians were as far ahead as the greeks if not more so sir...

 

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/01/math-whizzes-ancient-babylon-figured-out-forerunner-calculus

 

they figured out the motion of jupiter sir, with their eyes and no mathematical library of knowledge and no teachers? ok cool

 

We disagree thats fine.

What is your basis for saying we needed help? Observation, trial and error, thats the basis for learning. We come out of the womb with the capacity for learning.

 

Again, you have not presented any logical need for aliens. I'm not sure why you want to discount all of the amazing things so many ancient cultures did, but you don't have a logical or factual basis for it. Call it faith if you want to but there's no facts to support your idea. 

 

 

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Aladeen said:

Puma punku and the droga stones have nothing to do with “moving rocks” my friend. 

 

At least read and look into what I say if you actually want to have a debate about this it until then I’m not going to bother.

Pumapunku is a temple made of rock.

 

Those dropa stones have been debunked over and over. 

[EuroCanuck]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

What is your basis for saying we needed help? Observation, trial and error, thats the basis for learning. We come out of the womb with the capacity for learning.

 

Again, you have not presented any logical need for aliens. I'm not sure why you want to discount all of the amazing things so many ancient cultures did, but you don't have a logical or factual basis for it. Call it faith if you want to but there's no facts to support your idea. 

 

 

Well if I had facts supporting alien intervention on planet earth, I guess I would be famous right? your argument is nonsense.

The point is, a rational person should ask how did these ancient people have such knowledge without the starting basis to build it from.

 

As I said we agree to disagree move on

 

 

 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, EuroCanuck said:

Well if I had facts supporting alien intervention on planet earth, I guess I would be famous right? your argument is nonsense.

The point is, a rational person should ask how did these ancient people have such knowledge without the basis to build it from.

no yours is. So your saying the lack of alien evidence is evidence of aliens 

 

Rational people have looked at ancient knowledge and have credited them with the human ingenuity needed to get it done over time.

 

You're arguing there was no basis to learn things ourselves, thats ridiculous. We have millions of years of evidence showing how our ancestors learned things. 

 

You want aliens, OK have aliens. But you have no evidence to back that up. 

[EuroCanuck]

15 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

no yours is. So your saying the lack of alien evidence is evidence of aliens 

 

Rational people have looked at ancient knowledge and have credited them with the human ingenuity needed to get it done over time.

 

You're arguing there was no basis to learn things ourselves, thats ridiculous. We have millions of years of evidence showing how our ancestors learned things. 

 

You want aliens, OK have aliens. But you have no evidence to back that up. 

never said aliens were a certainty son. Sadly nuance is not your thing but dogma is.

 

I have an open mind and suggested our history is perhaps not as we know

 

Many are scared to open their minds. Your points ignore everything i said and simply repeat the same thing. Not once have you addressed the fact that ancient man had a library of knowledge of math and astronomy that by all accounts does not make sense based on their level of scientific knowledge (the library upon which science and math are built - the building blocks, nor the instrumentation). Much of what they knew is even just being confirmed today.

 

Science and Math are like blocks, they build on each other. You don't start at calculus and advanced astronomy. If you dont have the foundations to build to that, how do you get there? you cant. This is the POINT. So either there is a major gap in our understanding of how they built to it, which there is, and all of that knowledge somehow disappeared, or someone helped them with that knowledge.

 

To you, this means well they just figured it out. Well if we just figured it out based on building off THEIR knowledge, hmm how did they figure it out?

 

It is clear you can't comprehend the arguments being made. 

 

From the article I posted earlier that you conveniently ignored

 

The Babylonians had developed “abstract mathematical, geometrical ideas about the connection between motion, position and time that are so common to any modern physicist or mathematician,” - todays scientists know this because its learned, built on knowledge, yet these people just 'came up with it' with sticks I guess, or looking in the sky! As I said, damn they must be smart. Or we are damn stupid because we needed all that mathematical and astronomical knowledge and study built over centuries and advances in scientific method and instruments to figure much of it out!

 

Take care.

[Aladeen]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

Pumapunku is a temple made of rock.

 

Those drops stones have been debunked over and over. 

Puma punku is not about the building of it persay... it’s about the precision of the cutting of the stones like the perfect circles and angles carved into the stone that can only be replicated using laser guidance.

 

dropa stones haven’t been allowed to be studied by independent sources since they were first discovered. They are rotting away in some Chinese vault somewhere and they say it’s nothing and yet the people who were able to study them for a short time intially found microscopic hieroglyphs as well as strange electromagnetic frequencies emanating from them as well as observed that they hummed and yet dated to be thousands of years old (these are the smart humans you say explain everything throughout our history) 

 

How can they be debunked if they have not been studied thoroughly in the first place and now are even denied to have existed at all even though there is photographic evidence and various scientists who say they do? 

 

If you believe the Chinese government on this one I hate to break it to you but governments don’t always tell you the truth.