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The New NHL ( A Draft Discussion)


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Bear with me....a long read (sorry)

 

In the end, this is still a big man's game, where very few little men dominate. Take in point, the final 4 playoff combatants. Most all players have size, and smaller players seem to disappear, aka Ehlers.......there are a few small men contributing, but all and all...most players are over 6 ft. and over 195 lbs..........some much larger! In saying this, skill still wins out in most cases, but I would take a big man with skill over a small man with skill.......and these final 4 teams are loaded with big skilled forwards  in their top 6, if not their top 9.

 

The defensemen are pretty much all 6 ft.+ and 205 lbs. +, all skate well, and in general hit and play both sides of the puck well.

 

Why then, is there such a discrepancy, in the regular season? Well, in short, IMO, players could not play 82 games with that intensity without major injuries and man games lost. This causes players and teams in general to throttle back through the regular season, which in the ends allows the pure talent to run amuck, and the lesser talented players to show better than then they would in a playoff series. In the playoffs, those teams with more talent and depth can survive for the most part, but in the end when everything else is equal, a skilled big man, will beat a skilled small man 9 times out of 10.

 

You must have a very (elite) high end offense (aka Pittsburgh 2015 - 2017) to win cups over a generally larger skilled aggressive team. Mass matters! Speed kills! A lethal combination when in one body! (Note* In Pittsburgh's case....it doesn't hurt to have good goaltending as well)

 

This brings me to the comment everyone uses......."The New NHL"..........which has in general seemed to have gotten a little younger...........but strangely enough those teams still playing are only sparsely scattered with rookies, and only elite young players at that! The general make up is largely the same as always......where the core players are generally 25 to 30 years old. None competitive teams, such as Vancouver, Buffalo, Chicago are littered with either a very young core, or a very old core, and lack the experienced depth player that is able to play a dependable, intense game, for a short run.

 

When looking at the Canucks, I see players like Horvat, Boeser Virtanen, Gaunce, and Gaudette being of the ilk, that Stanley Cup teams are made up of, but I am a little concerned with the size of Pettersson, Dahlen, Goldobin, Mottes, and Leipsic on forward....as for Defense we have decent size in Gudbranson, Hutton, Pouliot, and possibly Tryamkin. Rookies such as Lind, Gadjovich, Brisebois, Sautner, McEneny and Juolevi are all reasonable in size, but not large by any means. Demko is a proto-type sized Goalie, but DiPietro is boarder line in that regard.

 

So entering the June draft, the Combine becomes very important, but in the end Benning will have to wade through the size and skill projections, and ask himself if pure skill, (if projected to be undersized), will win out over skill and size over all.......In the end, it is all projections, as all these prospects are 17/18 years old and could reach their ceiling or fall flat on their faces.......

 

Do you take Hughes or Boqvist over Bouchard, Dobson or Wahlstrom.............(this makes me wonder about genetics, and the size of their siblings and parents. I wonder if that matters?)

 

(I also wonder about the aging programs that the police use in missing person cases, where children are missing and they show a computer generated image of what they would look like 15 yars later.......is this applied to the prospects, when projecting?)

 

Are you sure you take pure skill over the latter (skill with size)?

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10 hours ago, luckylager said:

 

Depends on who's faster

I am very conflicted,  Lager

 

Lots of thoughts about this draft and not too many the same......

 

I can see so many arguments either way....

 

I would like 3 picks in the top 7 or 8

 

Not sure who I would take though

 

I am a big Dobson supporter.........but I ain't gotta no clue??? :unsure:

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20 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

I am very conflicted,  Lager

 

Lots of thoughts about this draft and not too many the same......

 

I can see so many arguments either way....

 

I would like 3 picks in the top 7 or 8

 

Not sure who I would take though

 

I am a big Dobson supporter.........but I ain't gotta no clue??? :unsure:

Hear ya. I really like the way Bouchard eats minutes and piles up points.

 

Thing is- It's the draft. Half of the top ten may not outperform the second round picks in any given year.

 

I'm still inclined to prefer size and speed over small and skilled (not saying Dobson is, Hughes though..), but whatever.

 

Hope JB kills it like he did last year. 

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NHL AVERAGE AGE:

76-77: 26y 3mo
86-87: 25y 6mo
96-97: 27y
06-07: 27y 8mo
16-17: 26y 9mo

The league isn't getting any younger than it naturally is. Journalists gotta write about something...

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9 hours ago, Zfetch said:

NHL AVERAGE AGE:

76-77: 26y 3mo
86-87: 25y 6mo
96-97: 27y
06-07: 27y 8mo
16-17: 26y 9mo

The league isn't getting any younger than it naturally is. Journalists gotta write about something...

Well, this dispels one myth.......

I would imagine the other 2 myths are smaller and faster......

Maybe faster over the years (20 years), but not over a short period of time (didn't happen over night)

What is this "New NHL" anyways?

I look at these playoffs and they look pretty much as they have for the last 10 years generally

Minus the %&%$$## Bruins..............but not really

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Guardian...not sure if you beered me because....

 

A) I want 3 picks in the first 10

B). There is so many arguments either way

C). I am very conflicted

D). It's a confusing draft

E). I am a Dobson supporter

F). or I ain't gotta a clue

G). all of the above

 

LOL.............Chances are JB drafts a defenseman........because there will be several sitting at the #7 spot and because of positional need.......the question is which ones will be there and which one will make the biggest impact in the NHL...........is the million dollar question!

 

PS.......pardon my ignorance, but you referred to you having scouted........what level and for who, if you don't mind.

 

Cheers!

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Size matters, in tight checking playoffs the bigger player will win more puck battles.

In the Nucks 94 cup run they had only 6 players under 6', one of which was a goalie. They had 26 players 6' and over. They had only 10 players under 195 lbs, 2 were goalies.

2010/11 cup run they had only 5 players under 6' and 7 players under 195 lbs, one listed at 192 lbs.

2017/18 the team had 13 players 6' and under, 14 under 195 lbs.

 

I hope Benning doesn't carry any anger about himself being cut because he was small, skilled but considered too soft.

 

OJ is now listed at 6'3" so his size can get him into and keep him there, the NHL he is the 2nd biggest dman next to Guddy and if they compare the offensive out put there should be no contest, OJ should be able to get 12 pts a year, over double Guddy's average.

 

The regular season is business time for selling tickets, players don't want to get hurt because their bodies are their business, there is much more game management from ref's. The playoffs are still the "standard" of the NHL and the cup, the hardest to win of all leagues, small players can be worn down, skill players checked into the ice with the relaxation of calls.

 

I haven't looked at the average over the decades but last year the league average was 27.8 and the Nucks were 28,the oldest in the two decades.

12 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Guardian...not sure if you beered me because....

 

A) I want 3 picks in the first 10

B). There is so many arguments either way

C). I am very conflicted

D). It's a confusing draft

E). I am a Dobson supporter

F). or I ain't gotta a clue

G). all of the above

 

LOL.............Chances are JB drafts a defenseman........because there will be several sitting at the #7 spot and because of positional need.......the question is which ones will be there and which one will make the biggest impact in the NHL...........is the million dollar question!

 

PS.......pardon my ignorance, but you referred to you having scouted........what level and for who, if you don't mind.

 

Cheers!

A B C D E.

 

Definitely hits on just about everything, used to say if a kid ducks walking through the door he can be taught to skate.

 

Big Buff is a freak but it is so funny watching him rag doll a player in each hand, and neither ever does a thing, no face wash, nothing, I think that is intimidation, won't ever see Stecher or most of the Canucks D ever doing that, maybe Tryamkin, I like when he took on all five Ducks.

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Maybe it's the time of year (playoffs), and what I see is speed, speed and more speed, with a big dash of grit and great goaltending. The Canucks need elite players with speed and grit. If it's a smaller player with high end skill, then he'd better be able to take a beating, or be fast/slippery enough to avoid big hits.

 

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Maybe it's the time of year (playoffs), and what I see is speed, speed and more speed, with a big dash of grit and great goaltending. The Canucks need elite players with speed and grit. If it's a smaller player with high end skill, then he'd better be able to take a beating, or be fast/slippery enough to avoid big hits.

Yes, there is speed, but from big guys.......have you seen Ehlers in these playoffs?

 

 

Nuck

 

You have to read Guardians post just before yours..............

It is not a matter of the small skilled guys slipping a check

It is a matter of the ones they don't..............just look at Tanev......he slips a lot of checks, but what happens when he does get hit?

Well, it is a collective thing when he doesn't get hit by a bad one....it still causes injury and poorer play by accumulation

 

There is a reason why , light weight boxers don't fight heavy weights.....

The light weight will hit him 10 to 1, but when the heavyweight does connect it causes damage

 

This is physics, and can not be controlled.....this is why I have concern for Hughes and Boqvist.......this is why I want to trade Tanev

Rob Zepp will tell you.....there is plenty of real talented juniors selling cars...some with decent skill and speed

 

It is a very interesting draft, and small guys do make it, and some grow after their 17 birthday.......we certainly put on muscle mass

And Kegs if we don't watch it! LOL

 

Do you think Stecher grew much after he was 17? Maybe weight....not height!

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13 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Bear with me....a long read (sorry)

 

In the end, this is still a big man's game, where very few little men dominate. Take in point, the final 4 playoff combatants. Most all players have size, and smaller players seem to disappear, aka Ehlers.......there are a few small men contributing, but all and all...most players are over 6 ft. and over 195 lbs..........some much larger! In saying this, skill still wins out in most cases, but I would take a big man with skill over a small man with skill.......and these final 4 teams are loaded with big skilled forwards  in their top 6, if not their top 9.

 

The defensemen are pretty much all 6 ft.+ and 205 lbs. +, all skate well, and in general hit and play both sides of the puck well.

 

Why then, is there such a discrepancy, in the regular season? Well, in short, IMO, players could not play 82 games with that intensity without major injuries and man games lost. This causes players and teams in general to throttle back through the regular season, which in the ends allows the pure talent to run amuck, and the lesser talented players to show better than then they would in a playoff series. In the playoffs, those teams with more talent and depth can survive for the most part, but in the end when everything else is equal, a skilled big man, will beat a skilled small man 9 times out of 10.

 

You must have a very (elite) high end offense (aka Pittsburgh 2015 - 2017) to win cups over a generally larger skilled aggressive team. Mass matters! Speed kills! A lethal combination when in one body! (Note* In Pittsburgh's case....it doesn't hurt to have good goaltending as well)

 

This brings me to the comment everyone uses......."The New NHL"..........which has in general seemed to have gotten a little younger...........but strangely enough those teams still playing are only sparsely scattered with rookies, and only elite young players at that! The general make up is largely the same as always......where the core players are generally 25 to 30 years old. None competitive teams, such as Vancouver, Buffalo, Chicago are littered with either a very young core, or a very old core, and lack the experienced depth player that is able to play a dependable, intense game, for a short run.

 

When looking at the Canucks, I see players like Horvat, Boeser Virtanen, Gaunce, and Gaudette being of the ilk, that Stanley Cup teams are made up of, but I am a little concerned with the size of Pettersson, Dahlen, Goldobin, Mottes, and Leipsic on forward....as for Defense we have decent size in Gudbranson, Hutton, Pouliot, and possibly Tryamkin. Rookies such as Lind, Gadjovich, Brisebois, Sautner, McEneny and Juolevi are all reasonable in size, but not large by any means. Demko is a proto-type sized Goalie, but DiPietro is boarder line in that regard.

 

So entering the June draft, the Combine becomes very important, but in the end Benning will have to wade through the size and skill projections, and ask himself if pure skill, (if projected to be undersized), will win out over skill and size over all.......In the end, it is all projections, as all these prospects are 17/18 years old and could reach their ceiling or fall flat on their faces.......

 

Do you take Hughes or Boqvist over Bouchard, Dobson or Wahlstrom.............(this makes me wonder about genetics, and the size of their siblings and parents. I wonder if that matters?)

 

(I also wonder about the aging programs that the police use in missing person cases, where children are missing and they show a computer generated image of what they would look like 15 yars later.......is this applied to the prospects, when projecting?)

 

Are you sure you take pure skill over the latter (skill with size)?

I believe we should be thinking defence at this year's draft.

I'm an old school guy, so I lean toward the bigger, physical, mean defenders first.

Noah Dobson can put up offence but seems disinterested in using his size to his advantage. I've watched a lot of footage of him and have seen very few instances of physicality and scouts don't mention much on the subject, leading me to believe it's not a big part of his game. At the end of the day, it's hard to ignore our need for a powerplay quarterback. If he's still on the board at seven, I believe he becomes a Vancouver Canuck.

JB has made interesting comments in post tdl interviews that made it sound like he will be looking to add more picks for the draft. I'm really hoping he aggressively seeks another top fifteen pick. Picking up Bode Wilde as a physical element to our blue line could really set the tone for a new defence core.

 

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Stecher is a battler for sure, for a smaller player, he takes a beating, but pushes himself, very tenacious.

 

I think Leipsic might be a valuable player. He's smallish, but he's fast, very skilled, has a great shot, and he has grit, isn't afraid to go to the dirty areas. Biega is another smallish player who has a ton of grit and battles hard.

 

I PVRd the Sedins last home game against ARI, and just watched it yesterday. I was actually at the game, but wanted to watch from a TV perspective, plus all of the intermission stuff. Here are my thoughts on some of the younger players, after watching that game: (Boeser, Baertschi, Granlund, Eriksson, Tanev and Gudbranson were out with injuries),

 

LEIPSIC - As mentioned, he was flying, scored a beautiful spin-o-rama backhand goal, was in on a lot of plays, very fast and tenacious

 

VIRTANEN - Again, very fast, and scored a beautiful wrister, top shelf off the faceoff. When he's not flying around the ice and creating scoring chances, he's hitting people.  

 

GAUDETTE - For a kid playing his first few games you can see how good he's going to be,. Very responsible defensively. He was battling in his own end, unlike a player like Goldobin, who cherry-picks by the blueline, waiting for a pass. Gaudette also has a lot of speed and size. He gets it, and he's going to be great for us. Also created a few scoring chances.

 

GOLDOBIN - Very skilled and has some speed, but lacks a defensive game. I find he'll either make a beautiful impossible pass or else he'll try to do too much and lose the puck. He's a work in progress.

 

GAUNCE - He'll never be more than a depth centreman on the Canucks IMO. My guess is a possible callup from Utica on occasion. 

 

 

 

 

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I agree with the need for size so long as they can still skate and contribute something on the offensive or physical side of play.

 

You lost me at Gaunce being of the ilk Stanley cup winners are made of... guy is a decent enough checker but cant win draws, cant hit, can't shoot, can't pass, how does he help us win a cup? He literally almost brings nothing to the table.

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I'm leaning towards Wahlstrom on forwards and Boucher and Dobson on D. They seem more NHL ready.

In the payoffs the smaller D seem to have lessened their impact quite a bit (Ellis/McAvoy) 

On forward, Gallagher/Zuchrello weren't near as effective during the regular season. (NB.Forward looks good for Biega because he is tougher. I could see him being a more nasty 4th liner)

Although I get more flak for bringing up OJ. At the time I wanted the more NHL ready players in MT, Sergei and my darkhorse was Chychrun. Bigger bodies able to play against men.. 

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17 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

In the end, this is still a big man's game, where very few little men dominate.

We're off track again! 9 of the top 12 scorers are either smaller, or lighter than your threshold.

 

1/2 of them are both.

 

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20172018&seasonTo=20172018&gameType=3&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,gamesPlayed

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 5 in 6 of Tampa's top scorers don't meet the threshold either. Only Hedman and Stamkos are over 6'. Stamkos has a heavy shot, not heavy hit. He does not weigh 200 lbs.

 

Palat

Johnson

Point

Kucherov

 

 

 

Boston has the best top line in hockey?

 

None of Bergeron, Marchand & Pastrnak are over 200 lbs. Only Bergeron is over 6'

 

I guess all the weight is in the swag of Marchands tongue? 

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2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

What you need is size in your line up. Not that you have to build a team around size.

Hey Surfer

 

Yes, my numbers probably are off a little, but not a lot (I don't think?) I thought we spitball around here???

But the point is that smaller players do have a tougher time, compared to a larger player with a "little" less talent

I am not saying we have to build our team around only larger players...........not at all

I am just saying that when all other things are equal, pick the larger player

 

Everyone has to remember Boqvist and Hughes have their issues also, and the GM's looking at them and Bouchard and Dobson have to weigh things out and it may still take 3 or 4 years to find out which one was the best pick.......we here on CDC talk big, but honestly, unless you can actually see all them play in person, or you know exactly what to look for.......your peeing into the wind

 

I certainly don't know which one will come out best..............maybe all of them............wouldn't that be something!

 

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Size matters only when that size has skill and speed to match the small speeding bullets like Marchesault on Las Vegas.

 

A great skater with speed with solid hockey IQ can be a menace as a 2 way guy. Las Vegas works hard and plays with team speed which makes them an Excellent 2 way team.

 

Some skills can be improved yes with a combo of added size or strength and technique but rarely drastically. What is hard to change is work ethic and Hockey IQ and natural born offensive skills.

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