The New NHL ( A Draft Discussion)

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 minutes ago, Chip Kelly said:

Size matters only when that size has skill and speed to match the small speeding bullets like Marchesault on Las Vegas.

 

A great skater with speed with solid hockey IQ can be a menace as a 2 way guy. Las Vegas works hard and plays with team speed which makes them an Excellent 2 way team.

 

Some skills can be improved yes with a combo of added size or strength and technique but rarely drastically. What is hard to change is work ethic and Hockey IQ and natural born offensive skills.

Funny you say that Chip........most coaches will say that all skills can be taught, but you can't teach size.........(It's a quote used by professional coaches and best ever exec's all the time)............I do say I agree with your IQ point to a large extent............but skating can be taught, shooting can be practiced..........positional play, taught and practiced..........Size and IQ..........not so much...........but that too can be neutralized with speed and tenacity

[Canucklehead73]

I think the biggest issue the Canucks have with size is that our middle weight forwards cannot skate... you can be effective if you outrace players to pucks and elude checks.

 

Our guys get caught and neutralized way to easily for my taste... baerschti is a good example of a mid sized skill guy who is pretty useless when he HAS the puck. He can sneak in and use his good shot but cannot play the board game or carry the puck very well.

 

Gotta be able to skate.... 

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Funny you say that Chip........most coaches will say that all skills can be taught, but you can't teach size.........(It's a quote used by professional coaches and best ever exec's all the time)............I do say I agree with your IQ point to a large extent............but skating can be taught, shooting can be practiced..........positional play, taught and practiced..........Size and IQ..........not so much...........but that too can be neutralized with speed and tenacity

Well?

 

You cannot teach someone to dangle, dish & shoot like Crosby, Giroux or Gaudreau? You either have it, or you don't. Maybe that is exaggerating... 

 

Digging deeper? The dangle itself can probably be learned? Its practice, repition, practice, practice practice. You still need the confidence to pull it off.  But you also still need off the charts balance, agility, quickness, endurance & hand eye. Those are genetic. Although can be enhanced by training. And what phenomena is the 6th sense vision of the true masters? To know where they are going with such moves. To see plays evolving two moves before everyone else & in split second moments.

 

There are more big hockey players that show up for tryouts than their are Kucherov's.

[Canuck Surfer]

What I will say is every team needs a Zach Kassian?  Between practice & training, he never quite became a Crosby Malkin Shanahan? 

 

But he had size & speed, puck skill.  He helps a possession style game because, funny enough, he's position ally responsible? HIs size can be a weapon, he can check & help out the team. There is always a role, and 8or 14 minutes a night he can both be deployed? And create problems for other teams.  

 

But I would take Arvidsson's stick out of the pile at centre ice first, ten times out of ten.

 

The guy who plays harder is always worth more! 

[J.I.A.H.N]

15 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

What I will say is every team needs a Zach Kassian?  Between practice & training, he never quite became a Crosby Malkin Shanahan? 

 

But he had size & speed, puck skill.  He helps a possession style game because, funny enough, he's position ally responsible? HIs size can be a weapon, he can check & help out the team. There is always a role, and 8or 14 minutes a night he can both be deployed? And create problems for other teams.  

 

But I would take Arvidsson's stick out of the pile at centre ice first, ten times out of ten.

 

The guy who plays harder is always worth more! 

I did say "when Equal"

 

But let's look at Chara at let's say 30 years of age.....10 years ago

 

Everyone is smaller, and how many got past him?

 

I don't disagree with your point about those small players, but they have to be so much more skilled to dominate

 

I have said this to hockey friends a lot......."If that small was the same size as (insert name of big player) he would kill him!

 

So, yes there are some great small players, but how many compared to the average player size, etc

 

Name the greats..........there are not many short of 6ft. and 200 lbs.

 

I do like Arvidsson

[Bruce Boudreau]

23 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Funny you say that Chip........most coaches will say that all skills can be taught, but you can't teach size.........(It's a quote used by professional coaches and best ever exec's all the time)............I do say I agree with your IQ point to a large extent............but skating can be taught, shooting can be practiced..........positional play, taught and practiced..........Size and IQ..........not so much...........but that too can be neutralized with speed and tenacity

Even Horvat didn't change his technique he just got more stronger and explosive but his skating style never really changed. He is still a chugging power guy he is not smooth and effortless like Duncan Keith or heck, even Quinn Hughes, doesn't glide or move with ease out there. (Few guys do to be fair)

 

Jake Virtanen wants to improve his puck skills/hands but it will be hard for him because his mental/Hockey IQ/ positioning and decision making is not great but like you said speed and size do make up for it especially if he adopts the tenacious Jannik Hansen mindset.

 

Tanev has wanted to put up more points for forever now by chipping in more goals and improving his shot. Has he done it? Not really...he has gained some weight and some strength since he was a 21 year old rookie tooth pick, like Elias Petersson, but has still been injury prone and his shot makes it look like Bieksa has a cannon.

 

The only other guy I can think of who really changed his game is PK Subban he gained weight and got much stronger from where he was at as a rookie and only had an above average shot. Now with the added weight he has an absolute  boomerang bomb that he unleashes and his added weight helps him for puck battles.

 

So yes you can improve all aspects. But to the extent where it makes you noticeably better and more productive I would argue is pretty hit or miss.

 

These guys are pros already. By 25 physically most guys are maxed out in their height and weight potential.

 

They already have meals ready for them, shooting coaches, skating coaches, skills aka stick handling coaches that teams employ and they have their own separate guys as well.

 

These guys are not some raw clay mouldable 8 year olds who can learn quickly and make big changes to their games year to year.

 

It's just tweaks for guys who are already at the pro level in all aspects. Fitness or skills mental or whatever.

[Bruce Boudreau]

I also thinking the NHL is trending to less hitting to go along with fighting you don't see much physical play even in the playoffs any more. The game moves so fast guys are scare dog hitting hard and getting fined or suspended or caught out of position hurting their team hunting for hits.

 

There are a lot of measly hit attempts that 10 years would not be considered hits much less called big hitting or physical games.

[J.I.A.H.N]

24 minutes ago, Chip Kelly said:

Even Horvat didn't change his technique he just got more stronger and explosive but his skating style never really changed. He is still a chugging power guy he is not smooth and effortless like Duncan Keith or heck, even Quinn Hughes, doesn't glide or move with ease out there. (Few guys do to be fair)

 

Jake Virtanen wants to improve his puck skills/hands but it will be hard for him because his mental/Hockey IQ/ positioning and decision making is not great but like you said speed and size do make up for it especially if he adopts the tenacious Jannik Hansen mindset.

 

Tanev has wanted to put up more points for forever now by chipping in more goals and improving his shot. Has he done it? Not really...he has gained some weight and some strength since he was a 21 year old rookie tooth pick, like Elias Petersson, but has still been injury prone and his shot makes it look like Bieksa has a cannon.

 

The only other guy I can think of who really changed his game is PK Subban he gained weight and got much stronger from where he was at as a rookie and only had an above average shot. Now with the added weight he has an absolute  boomerang bomb that he unleashes and his added weight helps him for puck battles.

 

So yes you can improve all aspects. But to the extent where it makes you noticeably better and more productive I would argue is pretty hit or miss.

 

These guys are pros already. By 25 physically most guys are maxed out in their height and weight potential.

 

They already have meals ready for them, shooting coaches, skating coaches, skills aka stick handling coaches that teams employ and they have their own separate guys as well.

 

These guys are not some raw clay mouldable 8 year olds who can learn quickly and make big changes to their games year to year.

 

It's just tweaks for guys who are already at the pro level in all aspects. Fitness or skills mental or whatever.

I do not disagree with you in general on what your saying.....but

 

I do know for fact that tweaks, can be the difference between winning a race for the puck and not.......I am speaking of technique

Power can also improve general speed.....and I agree we are speaking of milliseconds in most cases

 

BUT, "I don't have to run faster than the bear...just you!"

 

Shooting is another thing that can be improved on......release, power, and accuracy........shooting a zillion pucks a day........works to some point

 

"wack a mole" or neuron tests can be improved .......... unfortunately, I suffered a heart attack years ago, and was coached to react quicker........

(Neuron test/practice.....................when you see the light, press the button........practice can develop quicker response 

 

BUT....................and it is a big but! Nothing takes the place of god given talent.....which I think was your point...and which I agree with

 

Random Thought

 

I read somewhere that "man" has not physically changed in 50 thousand years.......but man has gotten faster and faster and faster

Are we saying that man has reached his peak and can not get faster/quicker/stronger?

We do know for a fact that man's IQ has increased over the years and that a person can increase his/her IQ within their lifetime,

 

So what are we saying about self improvement and how it relates to hockey skills?

[Rob_Zepp]

On 5/18/2018 at 6:33 PM, Chip Kelly said:

Size matters only when that size has skill

That's what she said......

[Bruce Boudreau]

17 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

I do not disagree with you in general on what your saying.....but

 

I do know for fact that tweaks, can be the difference between winning a race for the puck and not.......I am speaking of technique

Power can also improve general speed.....and I agree we are speaking of milliseconds in most cases

 

BUT, "I don't have to run faster than the bear...just you!"

 

Shooting is another thing that can be improved on......release, power, and accuracy........shooting a zillion pucks a day........works to some point

 

"wack a mole" or neuron tests can be improved .......... unfortunately, I suffered a heart attack years ago, and was coached to react quicker........

(Neuron test/practice.....................when you see the light, press the button........practice can develop quicker response 

 

BUT....................and it is a big but! Nothing takes the place of god given talent.....which I think was your point...and which I agree with

 

Random Thought

 

I read somewhere that "man" has not physically changed in 50 thousand years.......but man has gotten faster and faster and faster

Are we saying that man has reached his peak and can not get faster/quicker/stronger?

We do know for a fact that man's IQ has increased over the years and that a person can increase his/her IQ within their lifetime,

 

So what are we saying about self improvement and how it relates to hockey skills?

Not saying we as humans can't improve. Athletics are different 25 year olds all things being equal will always be superior to 35 year olds physically. In terms of stamina,recovery time, etc.

 

The rare cases like LeBron James are the ones who can maintain their abilities well past their peak thanks to advances in science, technology, and nutrition. Also doesn't hurt to have great genetics and work ethic and drive to have long careers an maintain their bodies to recover.

 

Analytics estimates that by 23 most NHL caliber forwards have shown a glimpse into the best they can be and will not be significantly better than shown.

 

For d men that comes later around 25-27.

 

Goalies peak around 30 when they are still in good physical shape but have mastered techniques that work for them and the mental game of goaltending and handling pressure.

 

As it relates to Hockey skills how many guys are better after 30 as opposed to before?

 

Think of gymnastics.. how many girls are better after 23 than before?