Where are we now?

[JM_]

14 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I love our city too, and I’m certain it’s the best city in the world.  However, I don’t think NHL UFAs will choose us over a US city if the money is the same.  Cost of living and the fishbowl, especially for guys with families, will factor in to their choice.  And we lose out to all the US cities on those.

From what I've read from players and even our own resident goalie @Rob_Zepp a lot of it, maybe the deciding factor a lot of the time, has to do with playing opportunity as well. Its such an individual decision with so many factors out of players control I don't see how a generalization on any city makes sense tbh. 

 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, gurn said:

Messier

Sundin

Sutter

Erickson

35 year old Messier, you know the one who just skated ovals from blue line to blue line, half of one year of Sundin (for half of 10 million, like WTF he was almost retired) Sutter, whoopie, L.E., funny. 

 

Not an impressive list.  Two years around the 2000s with the NYR blows that away, Lindros, Jagr, Fluery, Bure etc etc.

[Gurn]

10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

35 year old Messier, you know the one who just skated ovals from blue line to blue line, half of one year of Sundin (for half of 10 million, like WTF he was almost retired) Sutter, whoopie, L.E., funny. 

 

Not an impressive list.  Two years around the 2000s with the NYR blows that away, Lindros, Jagr, Fluery, Bure etc etc.

Salary cap?

[Rob_Zepp]

53 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

From what I've read from players and even our own resident goalie @Rob_Zepp a lot of it, maybe the deciding factor a lot of the time, has to do with playing opportunity as well. Its such an individual decision with so many factors out of players control I don't see how a generalization on any city makes sense tbh. 

 

Things change over time but the "vibe" on vancouver is excellent for most UFA types that I am aware of.   Chatter about Vancouver as a great place to play, raise a family and generally just "live" puts it well into the upper part of the league as a destination.   The travel amount is much better today than 20 years ago with charters etc. but players DO like winning and when a team is at lower part of their cycle, it can be harder for sure but once a corner is turned, playing for an emerging team is a blast.   Playing opportunity (ability to show what you can do) is probably right at top of the list but few players don't pay attention to the city and being largely paid in US dollars, living in a beautiful Canadian city.....live can be worse.

[CupIsComing]

Where are we now?

 

In terms of qualifying for playoffs...in a much worse position now that the gilded Knights have a powerhouse team and more/better draft opportunities than the Canucks.

 

I can't even allow myself to think about when the next expansion super-team is also in our playoff qualifying path. 

[Primal Optimist]

6 hours ago, gurn said:

I liked the Suave pick, shame he got hit by that car and sustained a concussion. Another what could have been player.

 

I was thinking that I sort of recalled he had a car accident...glad you heard it too. That was a painful storyline to read on the forums, yikes too many years back to think about. 

53 minutes ago, CupIsComing said:

Where are we now?

 

In terms of qualifying for playoffs...in a much worse position now that the gilded Knights have a powerhouse team and more/better draft opportunities than the Canucks.

 

I can't even allow myself to think about when the next expansion super-team is also in our playoff qualifying path. 

I love that the golden knights are proving, in a way, that you can succeed with 23 players earning 3.5 million each, even more so than with two players earning 8 million and trickling down to the 750k kids.   I know it is a little more unbalanced but in a nutshell: the slightly above average totallity of the 23 players beats having 2 superstars and an okay netminder and a bunch of filler. I love that, and I expect more teams will learn from it and things going forward in the league may begin to change. ALso, I don't know the name of the guy who is only paid to fight on the Golden Knights, if there is one...its not really front and center....so that is a bonus for me too: yes i think organic pugilism is part of hockey but not the paid scrapper who is out there with a training skate buddy to help him get up and down the ice between rounds of punching. 

[Gurn]

7 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said:

yikes too many years back to think about. 

get used to it,  for me years go by like fence posts on the highway.

[Primal Optimist]

I am pretty used to it, over 15 years on this version of Canucks Talk and i was well into my married life by the time I made the account. o.O

 

 

[DSVII]

Two to Three years from a playoff berth IMO. But we'll get there.

[PhillipBlunt]

The Canucks are far closer to contention than most realize. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

The more important question is where will we be in 2 years

 

As I understand it, we have 17(-1) players on the Canucks, worth $52,811,000 ($50,161,000)............so the proper total is $50,161,000 after Derek Dorsett

Which is tied with Vegas for the 4th lowest Cap Total and gives us approx. $30,000,000 to sign our existing RFA's and and UFA's we want.........................

So, allowing for Brock Boeser's bridge deal a year from now (4 million), and signing Stecher, Pouliot and Jake Virtanen this year(2 million each), it leave us with

about $20,000,000 to play with.........( trading RFA's Baertschi and Granlund will keep that $20,000,000 for remedies-UFA signings)........and trading UFA MDZ

will further reduce our payroll by an additional 3 million...giving us approx. 23 million to play with. (payroll will be at approx. $47,000,000 before signings.

 

Signing 1 UFA will not break the bank, and will allow us enormous flexibility, and taking on a short term contract (1 or 2 years) for a decent pick would be enough additions

 

 

So, because I see this as a 2 year rebuild from this point on...........yes 2 years! I would sign 26 year old E. Kane (6.5 million), take a bad contract(short term 5 million),

and sign Pettersson, Saunter, Archibald, and keep Goldobin short term (at least)

 

On the block would be..........values

Baertschi.....................2 round pick

Granlund.....................3 round pick

MDZ............................2 round pick

 

Now, West Coast feels that trading veterans would be terrible, and I would agree except, adding Kane and the cash dump puts us back to almost the same level 

of veterans, with a much better team, and money to buy with next year

 

I hope, that Benning does something like this..........maybe not all, but along these lines

 

I would be Trading Tanev next year, if not this year, and would be giving him much easier minutes, to increase his saleability ..................

 

My point is that there is always a lot of moving parts, and things can move quickly.......we have capspace, it is like real money!

 

 

[DrJockitch]

On 5/19/2018 at 7:35 PM, thrago said:

Personally I think we need 3 more drafts after this one with high picks for us to win the Cup. What I think is going to happen however is we are going to get better too quickly lose in the first or maybe the second round for 3-5 years then start this all over again.  

 

This group of young talent I fear will have to be the veterans on the team with the next wave of high picks coming in on ELC's to push us to the top. 

 

We are probably looking at 2025-30 as our next Cup window. We really needed to start clearing House in a big way after the 2012 season then we could have taken advantage of still having the Sedin's. Instead we went on life support and wasted our opportunity. But that's just my opinion.

 

Better late then never I guess.

I would agree with the timing here.  Benning tried to respect the Sedins by making the team competitive.  He did this with middling free agents and questionable trades and even more questionable contracts.  This is where the pro-scouting side of the Canucks has really shown it's stripes and those stripes are really ugly and has ultimately slowed the build down.  I hope that what they have been saying in the press is accurate and they are going very young this year. 

 

I think that the temptation of all that cap space might be too much to bare for Linden and Benning and they will start going after the big names (which is reasonable if you can get a star player you get a star player) and if they loose out will make some bad decisions like adding Bozak for too much money and term (like last call at the Roxy).  Free agency is a trap this year, and one I think Linden and Benning lack the subtlety to avoid.  If they make any offseason moves this year it should start with adding an experienced VP hockey ops and boost the funding of the pro-scouting department, it has consistently let them down.  

 

The rebuild has added some nice pieces (almost all from the amateur scouting side).  Petterson is probably the best prospect this organization has ever had.  Bo and Brock have already shown they are good pros and there is a heaping bucket full of potential wingers, Gaudette looks like a pro (how good, who knows) and Demko looks like he will get there.  Now short of Bo these guys all need significant seasoning.  We are probably 5-6 quality D prospects short of a set and they take longer to develop.  This rebuild still has a long way to go and will likely hit a few more bumps along the way especially if we fall into the free agent trap of adding middling to low end pros.  Outside of maybe 3-4 guys out there, and those are the big names, it is time to stay out of free agency and see what you have so that you can then develop a better strategy to complement the true building blocks of the next version of this team.  Oh and draft a boat load of mobile d-men.

[thrago]

29 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

I would agree with the timing here.  Benning tried to respect the Sedins by making the team competitive.  He did this with middling free agents and questionable trades and even more questionable contracts.  This is where the pro-scouting side of the Canucks has really shown it's stripes and those stripes are really ugly and has ultimately slowed the build down.  I hope that what they have been saying in the press is accurate and they are going very young this year. 

 

I think that the temptation of all that cap space might be too much to bare for Linden and Benning and they will start going after the big names (which is reasonable if you can get a star player you get a star player) and if they loose out will make some bad decisions like adding Bozak for too much money and term (like last call at the Roxy).  Free agency is a trap this year, and one I think Linden and Benning lack the subtlety to avoid.  If they make any offseason moves this year it should start with adding an experienced VP hockey ops and boost the funding of the pro-scouting department, it has consistently let them down.  

 

The rebuild has added some nice pieces (almost all from the amateur scouting side).  Petterson is probably the best prospect this organization has ever had.  Bo and Brock have already shown they are good pros and there is a heaping bucket full of potential wingers, Gaudette looks like a pro (how good, who knows) and Demko looks like he will get there.  Now short of Bo these guys all need significant seasoning.  We are probably 5-6 quality D prospects short of a set and they take longer to develop.  This rebuild still has a long way to go and will likely hit a few more bumps along the way especially if we fall into the free agent trap of adding middling to low end pros.  Outside of maybe 3-4 guys out there, and those are the big names, it is time to stay out of free agency and see what you have so that you can then develop a better strategy to complement the true building blocks of the next version of this team.  Oh and draft a boat load of mobile d-men.

I'm holding judgement on Benning and Linden for all that at the moment as I get the feeling they where given a directive by ownership to go in a certain direction. I believe that directive changed and what happens now is purely on those two.  I do think that Benning has a very keen hockey mind and have a lot of faith in his ability.  I was one of the people who thought the term and to some extent although I understand it the pay of LE was off. I don't think anyone could honestly say they knew that LE offense would dry up so fast and to such an extent.  

 

All of the other FA signings are short enough term and pay to have any long term effects on the Canucks.  Like you I hope they don't panic which I feel the LE deal kind of was and make another mistake on a Bozak or the like.  However  if a JT deal was able to be made it might be worth the risk.  

 

I might be a minority but I am hoping for a quiet off season, keep the cap space for now unless of course something comes up you can't refuse like JT for example. 

[DrJockitch]

Sure JT, Carlsson and Kane are probably worth a solid bid.  Though less sold on Kane because it is a position of strength and significant expenditure already.

 

JT and Carlsson represent really hard assets to find and ones we don't have.  I think any chance you get to get top notch players for free you take, independent of where you are in your "build".  Stars are the hardest thing to get in the league especially at centre and D.

 

I can appreciate that ownership may have played a role in the direction the team took, as is their right.  My question is the quality of pros that were brought in and overpaid.  Really the terms that comes to mind with so many vets on this team is over-rated and over-paid.  Sutter, Gudbranson, Dorset, Erikkson, the list goes on.  The best signings have been of flawed players to short term deals, last year was a good example of that.  The issue I have is that what we have has been so bad that players that should really be seeing limited roles and spot duty like MDZ and Gagner are playing too many minutes and all situations.

 

If you think about the GM job as having two basic parts (from a hockey ops perspective) evaluation, drafting and development of amateur players and the evaluation, signing and trading for pro players, Benning has done a fantastic job of the first but has really handicapped himself by doing such a poor job of the latter (worst team in the league over three years while spending to the cap speaks for itself).  Luckily he is doing such a good job of the first part and in our situation that is by far the more important part.  Now for a little luck in the lottery.

 

[Gurn]

12 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Though less sold on Kane because it is a position of strength and significant expenditure already.

Isn't the left wing spot the shallowest on the team?

Baertschi and then a drop off to Liepsic, Gaunce Boucher Motte

In the future   Dahlen and Gads, but they are perhaps 2 years away.

[DrJockitch]

more of a prospect I was discussing wing in general and from a prospect/young player perspective.  I think having a player like Kane would be valuable and may be the right type of player to ride shotgun with EP on the right wing.  Just with what Brock is going to be making after next year and what LE makes now, a lot of money is going to be spent on the wing.

[coolboarder]

We are in a much better shape than most teams at the bottom due to salary cap constraint with millions of cap hits coming off the book in next two seasons and we could jump in any bidding wars only if we are ready to make move for a quality UFA in their late 20's.  Better prospect pool than rest of other teams in similar position in term of having veterans around mentoring them.    We would be able to protect and have a less impact of losing a player to expansion draft.   We do not have to protect Eriksson.   All things considering, we still have a long way to go but we are in a much better shape.  

[Vanisleryan]

As of now we are still the last Canadian team to make the Stanley Cup final. Hate on us all you want Eastern media TO fanboys, can't take that away from us. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 5/20/2018 at 1:15 PM, IBatch said:

35 year old Messier, you know the one who just skated ovals from blue line to blue line, half of one year of Sundin (for half of 10 million, like WTF he was almost retired) Sutter, whoopie, L.E., funny. 

 

Not an impressive list.  Two years around the 2000s with the NYR blows that away, Lindros, Jagr, Fluery, Bure etc etc.

Sundin actually I thought was one our better forwards in the post-season (took him THAT long to get into shape LOL).  A shame about that errant Mitchell pass as I think Sundin was close to kicking it up another notch.

 

Plus we'll always have this moment (never a bad moment to taste the tears of LeafNation....)

 

 

[WHL rocks]

On 2018-05-19 at 10:32 AM, Chris12345 said:

Great question. Hard to answer as there can be many variables in play very quickly.

 

This won't be popular but I think the Canucks are being set up nicely to be a pretender for the next decade and do a lot of nothing for a long time.

Well, with the current players including prospects in the system we are no where near being a contender. This team needs a lot more at every position. Still looking for future 1C and future 1D. Once we get those players in the system it'll take years to develop them. 

 

Not all prospects work out. Some won't meet expectations and some won't even make the NHL. Three years ago many people on these boards thought this would be a Cup contending team by now. Now they think we'll be a Cup contender in 2 or 3 years from now. But the reality is different. 

 

One needs to look at the teams playing in the final 4 playoffs and look at how much talent and depth those teams have. then look at the Canucks and realize it will take many many years for this team to acquire that talent depth and develop it and build a team around it. 

 

If things go right in terms of drafting and development and winning some trades and signing UFA's we should be a playoff team in 4 years.