Canuck Young Forwards: Assessing 2017-18

[J.I.A.H.N]

18 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I think that Baertchi's name gets passed around unjustly imo.  He's a bona fide 2LW as all the stats would tell you but on this team he is playing in the 1LW slot.  He's good defensively and scores at a 20 goal pace.  What's not to like?

 

On this team, they're going to have to decide between Baertschi and Goldobin at some point.  Goldy has more high end skill but is a liability defensively so far.  By the end of next season, Benning will know which player to keep.  Baer is an RFA this year so needs a new contract. 

Is Dahlen the same type of player?  There's probably only room for 1 of them long term.

 

If Gadjovich can develop right, he would make a nice 2LW with grit.  He is probably 2-3 years away.  

 

So this is the question for me, would you add Kane, who is not much of a team player, more of a me first player to fit that role long term?  He seems to be a nice fit in San Jose and Joe Thornton rolled out the welcome wagon for him but he's still saying that he's going to explore free agency.  He doesn't know when he's got it good.  Pass.

 

I think a lot of posters see this line up with multiple players who fit the same slot and are uncomfortable with it.  Benning wants players to always feel that they have to compete hard to keep their position in the line up no matter where they fit in.  We need to get used to this.  It is healthy for the team.

Hi CC

 

I don't mean this at you....but mean to be critical of the situation

 

We have too many LWers that all have to clear wavers

 

This is before we even get into our prospects that are coming......

 

I agree that it is good to have competition, and do not want to trade away that ability

 

But we have X amount of contracts to take, and a back log at LW

 

Also, Joe Thorton was basically a none entity in SJ this year, and the younger core has taken over

 

Kane is 26 years old and has grown up by all reports out of San Jose....rep is a hard thing to shake

 

On Baertschi.............I have never once seen him take over a game or be amazing....never

 

To me, and I could be wrong, he is a complimentary player who benefits playing with Horvat

 

Think of it this way......."IF" Baertschi is a honest to goodness 1st or 2nd line player, who is 25ish, then his value would be high

 

I don't think that is the case........I think some of us see him as that.....not sure the rest of the league see him that high.....

[Crabcakes]

21 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Hi CC

 

I don't mean this at you....but mean to be critical of the situation

 

We have too many LWers that all have to clear wavers

 

This is before we even get into our prospects that are coming......

 

I agree that it is good to have competition, and do not want to trade away that ability

 

But we have X amount of contracts to take, and a back log at LW

 

Also, Joe Thorton was basically a none entity in SJ this year, and the younger core has taken over

 

Kane is 26 years old and has grown up by all reports out of San Jose....rep is a hard thing to shake

 

On Baertschi.............I have never once seen him take over a game or be amazing....never

 

To me, and I could be wrong, he is a complimentary player who benefits playing with Horvat

 

Think of it this way......."IF" Baertschi is a honest to goodness 1st or 2nd line player, who is 25ish, then his value would be high

 

I don't think that is the case........I think some of us see him as that.....not sure the rest of the league see him that high.....

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Benning decides between Goldy and Baer this year.  Maybe Baer needing a new contract forces the issue.  Between the two, there is no decision this year.  Goldy goes.  You keep the complete player.

 

The following year, Leipsic is an RFA and you make the same decision between him and Dahlen

 

The year after, Dahlen is an RFA and you make the same call between him and Gadjovich

 

Or you move Baertschi and keep Dhalen and Gadjovich.  Nothing is ever a set in stone.

 

Kane said that re-signing in San Jose is not a given and implied that he's going to free agency.  SJ is a quality organization with good, stable management.  It's the best organization that he's ever played for.  I wouldn't write them out of the playoffs ever.  Based on interviews that I've heard with George McPhee and other GM's, I think that most wouldn't touch Kane with a 10 foot pole because they look for the intangibles (character) first.  After the draft, Benning said that one of the big reasons why he selected Pettersson over Glass was that he felt that Pettersson would be a better fit with the group.  Doesn't that scream team chemistry?  Why then would Benning sign a square peg? 

 

Fwiw, I wouldn't expect anybody named Tkachuk to get drafted by the Canucks for the same reason.

 

 

[JamesB]

1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said:

It dawned on me after these posts that

 

a ). we do not have a bonified  #1 LWer yet

b ). Baertschi isn't that guy, but has value in that he can play up for a short time

c ). Pettersson may be our #1 LWer....probably will be

d ). Leipsic is probably a #3

e ). Goldobin isn't that LWer we are looking for

f  ). Dahlen, although having potential may not be the guy either (remains to be seen)

g ). Which means to me there is an actual void at #2 LW

h )  E. Kane may be the LWer we are looking for, because there is no one with size and aggressiveness that can match what he brings to the  #1 or #2 LW Position

I ).  Gaunce needs to look around and ask himself if he wants to play in the NHL.(he has size and IQ) (Motte probably pushes him out)

 

I also believe that we should clear some of these players out while they have value.........aka Goldobin for sure, and maybe Baertschi sooner  than later also.

It should be noted that "IF" Baertschi is a 2nd line LW, we will be expecting (3 to 4 million) on this contract.....his value is not worth that, and Kane is a mere 3 million or so extra on top of that, but he is a bonified #1/#2 LW, something that Baertschi is not. I also don't think Baertschi is a good fit for the #3 or 4 LW spot........makes him kind of redundant ...

 

 

24 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Benning decides between Goldy and Baer this year.  Maybe Baer needing a new contract forces the issue.  Between the two, there is no decision this year.  Goldy goes.  You keep the complete player.

 

The following year, Leipsic is an RFA and you make the same decision between him and Dahlen

 

The year after, Dahlen is an RFA and you make the same call between him and Gadjovich

 

Or you move Baertschi and keep Dhalen and Gadjovich.  Nothing is ever a set in stone.

 

Kane said that re-signing in San Jose is not a given and implied that he's going to free agency.  SJ is a quality organization with good, stable management.  It's the best organization that he's ever played for.  I wouldn't write them out of the playoffs ever.  Based on interviews that I've heard with George McPhee and other GM's, I think that most wouldn't touch Kane with a 10 foot pole because they look for the intangibles (character) first.  After the draft, Benning said that one of the big reasons why he selected Pettersson over Glass was that he felt that Pettersson would be a better fit with the group.  Doesn't that scream team chemistry?  Why then would Benning sign a square peg? 

 

Fwiw, I wouldn't expect anybody named Tkachuk to get drafted by the Canucks for the same reason.

 

 

Very interesting exchange between Jan and CC over the LW position and the potential for Evander Kane to fill a top 6 LW slot.

 

I agree that there is a competition shaping up between Goldy and Baer for an "offence first" LW slot in the top 6, and neither guy is well-suited to the bottom 6. And neither guy is waiver-exempt. I agree with CC that Baertschi is obviously ahead right now due to having a more complete game and that if one guy has to go, it would be Goldy. Baertschi has zero chance of clearing waivers, and even Goldy would probably get picked up. Trading one of those guys is possible but I expect both to be on the team that breaks camp in the fall.

 

The above para assumes that Kane is not picked up as a UFA. If he is, I think Goldy has to go unless Benning makes a good trade for Baertschi. But I am with CC on this one. During the "glory years" that including two President's trophies and a run to the SCF, the Canucks had a great "room" by all accounts, led by the Sedins obviously, but guys like Hammer and Burrows played a key role. And even though Kesler was an a**hole in general, he gave everything he had on the ice and had a great two-way game.

 

Now the leadership mantle is obviously passing on. Regardless of who gets the "C", the two young leaders are obviously Horvat and Boeser, and they both seem like great team-first guys. But the identity of the team will be up for grabs to some extent this year. Bringing in a guy like Kane could really disrupt the chemistry. Even if he has "grown up" and manages to avoid off-ice media headlines, it is hard to see him as a "team-first" guy in the room or on the ice. Plus he will get overpaid in free agency and we don't need another bloated contract as guys like Boeser and Pettersson will need big money contracts fairly soon and, if other guys develop as we hope, cap space could become an issue as the team rebuilds. One bad long-term contract (Eriksson) is enough.

 

Personally I would avoid the UFA market entirely this year except for short term deals for guys who might be traded at the deadline and/or provide short term toughness and physical play.

 

 

[canuckleheads fan]

3 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

I think that Baertchi's name gets passed around unjustly imo.  He's a bona fide 2LW as all the stats would tell you but on this team he is playing in the 1LW slot.  He's good defensively and scores at a 20 goal pace.  What's not to like?

 

On this team, they're going to have to decide between Baertschi and Goldobin at some point.  Goldy has more high end skill but is a liability defensively so far.  By the end of next season, Benning will know which player to keep.  Baer is an RFA this year so needs a new contract. 

Is Dahlen the same type of player?  There's probably only room for 1 of them long term.

 

If Gadjovich can develop right, he would make a nice 2LW with grit.  He is probably 2-3 years away.  

 

So this is the question for me, would you add Kane, who is not much of a team player, more of a me first player to fit that role long term?  He seems to be a nice fit in San Jose and Joe Thornton rolled out the welcome wagon for him but he's still saying that he's going to explore free agency.  He doesn't know when he's got it good.  Pass.

 

I think a lot of posters see this line up with multiple players who fit the same slot and are uncomfortable with it.  Benning wants players to always feel that they have to compete hard to keep their position in the line up no matter where they fit in.  We need to get used to this.  It is healthy for the team.

You do NOT introduce a cancer like Kane to a young team with little veteran leadership.  That would be the worst thing you could possibly do to the Canucks.  Kane works in SJ because they have lots of veterans to keep him in line.  Do you anticipate Edler keeping Kane in line?  I'm not sure even Gudbranson would be up for that.

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

I think that Baertchi's name gets passed around unjustly imo.  He's a bona fide 2LW as all the stats would tell you but on this team he is playing in the 1LW slot.  He's good defensively and scores at a 20 goal pace.  What's not to like?

 

On this team, they're going to have to decide between Baertschi and Goldobin at some point.  Goldy has more high end skill but is a liability defensively so far.  By the end of next season, Benning will know which player to keep.  Baer is an RFA this year so needs a new contract. 

Is Dahlen the same type of player?  There's probably only room for 1 of them long term.

 

If Gadjovich can develop right, he would make a nice 2LW with grit.  He is probably 2-3 years away.  

 

So this is the question for me, would you add Kane, who is not much of a team player, more of a me first player to fit that role long term?  He seems to be a nice fit in San Jose and Joe Thornton rolled out the welcome wagon for him but he's still saying that he's going to explore free agency.  He doesn't know when he's got it good.  Pass.

 

I think a lot of posters see this line up with multiple players who fit the same slot and are uncomfortable with it.  Benning wants players to always feel that they have to compete hard to keep their position in the line up no matter where they fit in.  We need to get used to this.  It is healthy for the team.

Baertschi had 2LW #'s with 1 LW & 2knd PP deployment.Did not quite produce. Doesn't that cast him as a good 3LW, debateable 2LW??

[mll]

6 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Baertschi had 2LW #'s with 1 LW & 2knd PP deployment.Did not quite produce. Doesn't that cast him as a good 3LW, debateable 2LW??

He played 15:36 on average and started less than 30 games with Horvat-Boeser.  That line was pretty much broken up by the end of November when Goldobin got recalled.  They started only 7 games together after that date.  

 

Horvat-Boeser-Daniel-Henrik were always top-6.  When Baer wasn't playing with Horvat his Cs were Sutter, Dowd, Gagner, Granlund and even Chaput. He finished the season on a line with Gagner-Virtanen.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, mll said:

He played 15:36 on average and started less than 30 games with Horvat-Boeser.  That line was pretty much broken up by the end of November when Goldobin got recalled.  They started only 7 games together after that date.  

 

Horvat-Boeser-Daniel-Henrik were always top-6.  When Baer wasn't playing with Horvat his Cs were Sutter, Dowd, Gagner, Granlund and even Chaput. He finished the season on a line with Gagner-Virtanen.

I think TG wants his guys to be hard to play against.  Baer is a soft player.  I doubt he lasts the season. 

[Canuck Surfer]

7 minutes ago, mll said:

He played 15:36 on average and started less than 30 games with Horvat-Boeser.  That line was pretty much broken up by the end of November when Goldobin got recalled.  They started only 7 games together after that date.  

 

Horvat-Boeser-Daniel-Henrik were always top-6.  When Baer wasn't playing with Horvat his Cs were Sutter, Dowd, Gagner, Granlund and even Chaput. He finished the season on a line with Gagner-Virtanen.

Good stats for perspective, thanks!

[Smashian Kassian]

Exceeded expectations? Virtanen was really playing great hockey at the end of the year. But for a 6th overall pick this far removed I think you would hope a guy with his speed/skill could be establishing himself in a top 9 role. This year was a big year for Jake and he took a big step. This next year will be another big year for Jake hopefully he can take the next step. I voted Leipsic, didn't expect him to immediately be a good/capable top 9 guy but looks like that's what we have.

 

The biggest disappointment has to be Granlund. The other candidate would be Gaunce. I'm not as down on Granlund as some others might be, but you would hope for better production after last season. Tough year for him but hopefully he can rebound next year. Worse case he's a good bottom 6 forward, but hopefully he can show a bit more offense & build off the 19 goals he had the year prior.

[Canuck Surfer]

These results indicate to me we absolutely have a shortfall of forward talent in the current domain.  Particularly LW.

 

Some encouraging prospects. But a level of depth where guys are fighting for jobs (1LW for example) that may be ahead of any players current level of development? Many are suggesting we have so much depth, we need to trade a Baer, or Goldobin. Not when you take into account the role being asked of them?

 

My take is that we should acquire a UFA LW for our top 6.  Let the real battles be who secures 1st, 2knd & 3rd line LW among the UFA, Leipsic & Baer. If someone can push Gaunce out of 4LW, so be it. But I have him pencilled in as incumbent. If Gadgy or Dahlen was showing undeniable readiness to grab a top 9 role it might change the outlook. Having Pettersson play some 1LW or 2LW only pushes someone to the press box, but more likely accounts for inevitable IR time for someone, not out of a job.

 

Maybe what we need is not Kane? But a big fast, fore check like a beast UFA LW to play with Sutter & Eriksson? Komorov is first to mind, a lower end option Kulemin, and Hansen springs to mind as well? Kane still works IMO.

 

 

[Crabcakes]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Baertschi had 2LW #'s with 1 LW & 2knd PP deployment.Did not quite produce. Doesn't that cast him as a good 3LW, debateable 2LW??

Ya, he's getting 1LW deployment and putting up 2LW numbers.  So it would follow that with 2LW deployment, he would put up better numbers

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Crabcakes said:

Ya, he's getting 1LW deployment and putting up 2LW numbers.  So it would follow that with 2LW deployment, he would put up better numbers

This is all too confusing.  Can a team win with Bear in their top six?  I don’t think so.  I see Baer as a placeholder.  

[Crabcakes]

4 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

You do NOT introduce a cancer like Kane to a young team with little veteran leadership.  That would be the worst thing you could possibly do to the Canucks.  Kane works in SJ because they have lots of veterans to keep him in line.  Do you anticipate Edler keeping Kane in line?  I'm not sure even Gudbranson would be up for that.

I didn't want to go there but I agree with you completely.

 

5 hours ago, JamesB said:

 

Very interesting exchange between Jan and CC over the LW position and the potential for Evander Kane to fill a top 6 LW slot.

 

I agree that there is a competition shaping up between Goldy and Baer for an "offence first" LW slot in the top 6, and neither guy is well-suited to the bottom 6. And neither guy is waiver-exempt. I agree with CC that Baertschi is obviously ahead right now due to having a more complete game and that if one guy has to go, it would be Goldy. Baertschi has zero chance of clearing waivers, and even Goldy would probably get picked up. Trading one of those guys is possible but I expect both to be on the team that breaks camp in the fall.

 

The above para assumes that Kane is not picked up as a UFA. If he is, I think Goldy has to go unless Benning makes a good trade for Baertschi. But I am with CC on this one. During the "glory years" that including two President's trophies and a run to the SCF, the Canucks had a great "room" by all accounts, led by the Sedins obviously, but guys like Hammer and Burrows played a key role. And even though Kesler was an a**hole in general, he gave everything he had on the ice and had a great two-way game.

 

Now the leadership mantle is obviously passing on. Regardless of who gets the "C", the two young leaders are obviously Horvat and Boeser, and they both seem like great team-first guys. But the identity of the team will be up for grabs to some extent this year. Bringing in a guy like Kane could really disrupt the chemistry. Even if he has "grown up" and manages to avoid off-ice media headlines, it is hard to see him as a "team-first" guy in the room or on the ice. Plus he will get overpaid in free agency and we don't need another bloated contract as guys like Boeser and Pettersson will need big money contracts fairly soon and, if other guys develop as we hope, cap space could become an issue as the team rebuilds. One bad long-term contract (Eriksson) is enough.

 

Personally I would avoid the UFA market entirely this year except for short term deals for guys who might be traded at the deadline and/or provide short term toughness and physical play.

 

 

Agree.  This is a good add to the argument.  Team chemistry is important to Benning especially in year 1 after the Sedin retirement.

 

Who on this team tosses Kane's track suit into the shower? 

[Crabcakes]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

These results indicate to me we absolutely have a shortfall of forward talent in the current domain.  Particularly LW.

 

Some encouraging prospects. But a level of depth where guys are fighting for jobs (1LW for example) that may be ahead of any players current level of development? Many are suggesting we have so much depth, we need to trade a Baer, or Goldobin. Not when you take into account the role being asked of them?

 

My take is that we should acquire a UFA LW for our top 6.  Let the real battles be who secures 1st, 2knd & 3rd line LW among the UFA, Leipsic & Baer. If someone can push Gaunce out of 4LW, so be it. But I have him pencilled in as incumbent. If Gadgy or Dahlen was showing undeniable readiness to grab a top 9 role it might change the outlook. Having Pettersson play some 1LW or 2LW only pushes someone to the press box, but more likely accounts for inevitable IR time for someone, not out of a job.

 

Maybe what we need is not Kane? But a big fast, fore check like a beast UFA LW to play with Sutter & Eriksson? Komorov is first to mind, a lower end option Kulemin, and Hansen springs to mind as well? Kane still works IMO.

 

 

Good points.  1LW would be the 2nd need behind a top pair D imo.  I would rather be patient and look for one in the draft.

 

This makes me even more interested in how Dahlen pans out.

 

Having said that, I agree, there would be no harm in finding a free agent to take Granlunds spot on the Sutter line.  It is clear to me that Granlund was wasted in this role and the stats showed that.

 

 

 

 

[smithers joe]

i like the line of gaudette, lerpsic and virtanen.  line # 3. lots of speed and energy there. if pettersson ends up being a good centre, i could see him with dahlen and boeser, that leaves a horvat, lind and gagjovich line. grit, speed and talent. 

[wildcam]

8 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

It dawned on me after these posts that

 

a ). we do not have a bonified  #1 LWer yet

b ). Baertschi isn't that guy, but has value in that he can play up for a short time

c ). Pettersson may be our #1 LWer....probably will be

d ). Leipsic is probably a #3

e ). Goldobin isn't that LWer we are looking for

f  ). Dahlen, although having potential may not be the guy either (remains to be seen)

g ). Which means to me there is an actual void at #2 LW

h )  E. Kane may be the LWer we are looking for, because there is no one with size and aggressiveness that can match what he brings to the  #1 or #2 LW Position

I ).  Gaunce needs to look around and ask himself if he wants to play in the NHL.(he has size and IQ) (Motte probably pushes him out)

 

I also believe that we should clear some of these players out while they have value.........aka Goldobin for sure, and maybe Baertschi sooner  than later also.

It should be noted that "IF" Baertschi is a 2nd line LW, we will be expecting (3 to 4 million) on this contract.....his value is not worth that, and Kane is a mere 3 million or so extra on top of that, but he is a bonified #1/#2 LW, something that Baertschi is not. I also don't think Baertschi is a good fit for the #3 or 4 LW spot........makes him kind of redundant

with the kids here. Kane can also play the #3 LW, which is a little more of a versatile roll. (If it is not Kane, it has to be something like him)

 

And although I am excited about Dahlen.........unless Pettersson does make it as a Center, there may be a question as what to do with him too. Keep in mind the age of these players, when saying we don't need Kane. Keep in mind we do have other (Gadjovich) players on the farm, and that Virtanen can play that side as well.

 

We will not be drafting LWers for a long while, unless uber skilled

 

A lot will depend on Pettersson's final position, but I see Kane (or like) coming in, Goldobin and Baertschi leaving.....both are worth 2nds at this very moment, but for how long?

 

I would support Bennings decision on these moves.

Talk show the other day was say Jake might get switched to left side...He would be fine coming off the left side with his speed driving to the net...

[luckylager]

The logjam at LW isn't too much of an issue considering none of them are very good, except Pettersson, maybe. Remains to be seen though. If there is a contender looking for LW depth Baer could be a guy to look at packaging with one of our Dmen for a D upgrade. Nashville might be a good trade partner in that case. Carolina is a good one to target for young Dmen, and they're tearing down...

 

I agree with @Alflives, Jake looks better and plays with more confidence on the LW, however I disagree he's a 1st line winger. No way I'd put him with Bo and Boes.

[J.I.A.H.N]

15 minutes ago, luckylager said:

The logjam at LW isn't too much of an issue considering none of them are very good, except Pettersson, maybe. Remains to be seen though.

 

I agree with @Alflives, Jake looks better and plays with more confidence on the LW, however I disagree he's a 1st line winger. No way I'd put him with Bo and Boes.

And there in a nut shell is why we should sign Kane

 

We are trying to build a hockey team, and out of 11 LWers.................you say we have 1 ..............maybe

 

And I agree with you totally on this post.

[J.I.A.H.N]

Let just say Kane and Pettersson are our 2 LWers, and we go into next years draft needing either a C or LW....to be interchanged with Pettersson one being a LW and the other being a center..........who ever fits better in each position.................

 

Signing Kane is like getting a free top first round pick.........pretty easy choice for me.

 

As Lucky Lager says, there isn't a lot of talent in the position right now..........which makes Baertschi and Goldobin expendable as with Granlund.........all could be moved with Pettersson and Kane coming on line..................valuable 2nd's and 3rd's in this years draft

 

It doesn't make us stronger this year, but down the road in 2 or 3 years.......we look good, and as someone on CDC has suggested, we need to start preparing for the

next expansion draft....what was it when Vegas came in? 8 forwards /3 dmen/1 goalie and 1st and 2nd year prospects on the protection list.

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 hours ago, smithers joe said:

i like the line of gaudette, lerpsic and virtanen.  line # 3. lots of speed and energy there. if pettersson ends up being a good centre, i could see him with dahlen and boeser, that leaves a horvat, lind and gagjovich line. grit, speed and talent. 

To CDC

 

Funny how even Smithers joe doesn't even see Baertschi, Goldobin and Granlund there in the future

 

And Joe is pretty astute and positive fellow!