[Discussion] Canucks turned down offers on Sutter (Sticking with the plan)

[JM_]

Just now, Provost said:

Sure it is. 

You get a (presumably decent) asset for Sutter and then sign a replacement.  You then have a comparable player and an extra asset.  There are plenty of players you can sign at that price tag or less that can play a 3rd line centre role.  Presumably you can actually find a better fit who can play the 2nd line centre spot which we need to fill (which he is terrible at).

Your investment strategy is to keep him until he declines or is no longer under club control and then have nothing?  That is literally the opposite of an investment strategy.

 

great theory. I'm talking about reality. There is no one similar that we could get and not give up other assets. We'd end up in a zero sum situation. Unless the idea is to tank and not be competitive. 

[250Integra]

Takes balls to do that. Right Sutter? 

[Provost]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

great theory. I'm talking about reality. There is no one similar that we could get and not give up other assets. We'd end up in a zero sum situation. Unless the idea is to tank and not be competitive. 

The reality is there are around a dozen UFA centres with similar or better production than he gave.  Most of them with less ice time, most of them with a lower cap hit than his on their last deals.  That is even excluding guys who didn't produce as much because they had more limited minutes being stuck behind other forwards which they wouldn't be here.

If we retain Sutter, we still need a 2nd line centre.  If we lose Sutter, we still need a 2nd line centre.

 

[Gaudette Celly]

1 hour ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

You can't tell the value unless you know what is offered. For example, if what Anaheim offered was Bieksa and a seventh rounder, then the value clearly isn't that great.

Yeah, those four teams that kept hounding Benning were sure they were eventually going to get him for that 2020 5th rounder.  Persistence over getting a fringe low-production overpaid player, makes sense.

 

Curious though, how the story goes that like Gudbranson and Dorsett and Baertschi (or half the Canucks roster) that apparently "you can easily get players like that in free agency."

[J-Dizzle]

6 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

great theory. I'm talking about reality. There is no one similar that we could get and not give up other assets. We'd end up in a zero sum situation. Unless the idea is to tank and not be competitive. 

I think a good chunk of CDC doesn’t realize that the ‘tear down’ stage of this rebuild is probably primarily over and that the older players that are left outside of perhaps a d-man are probably pieces management intends to keep around. 

 

At some point you have to actually start building to be a rebuild... Sutter is - for lack of better terms - a part of the foundation of that rebuild. 

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, Provost said:

The reality is there are around a dozen UFA centres with similar or better production than he gave.  Most of them with less ice time, most of them with a lower cap hit than his on their last deals.  That is even excluding guys who didn't produce as much because they had more limited minutes being stuck behind other forwards which they wouldn't be here.

If we retain Sutter, we still need a 2nd line centre.  If we lose Sutter, we still need a 2nd line centre.

 

No there's about 3: https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2019/caphit/all/center/ufa/desc/1/right

 

Bozak will cost just as much if not more, and the other right handed shut down C's are not as good. Beagle would be a great option as a 4C but he's nowhere near as fast as Sutter. 

 

And you'd be making the Sutter deal hoping that you get one of these free agents, which you may not. Benning would be leaving the C depth gutted and thats not how they are going to build this team. Sure you'd get some picks and maybe a prospect that can help what, 4 or 5 seasons from now? It doesn't make sense for how they want to get this team back to being competitive again. 

 

[Drakrami]

1 hour ago, captainhorvat said:

Sutters a really good 3rd line ctr that can pop 20 goals a year, if healthy. I feel like hes the type of player that would be clutch in the playoffs with timely goals. He is overpaid but thats not his fault.

right, right. That's why hes got so many cups with those 3 cup runs with the Penguins behind a stacked team of Crosby and Malkin. 

[Ghostsof1915]

So what were the offers and which 4 teams?

[HerrDrFunk]

2 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

So what were the offers and which 4 teams?

That seems like vital info to know before declaring Benning should or shouldn't have traded Sutter.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

So what were the offers and which 4 teams?

Rumoured offers from a rumoured four teams.  It’s all made up.  

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

That seems like vital info to know before declaring Benning should or shouldn't have traded Sutter.

Everyone knows what this team needs, if it was something like a young C with clear potential or a top 4 offensive D it would have happened. So my guess it wasn't close to that. 

[Rush17]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Rumoured offers from a rumoured four teams.  It’s all made up.  

It is Jason Botchford after all lol. I have to give him props tho. He knew an announcement around the twins was coming the weekend before.  To what extend he either didn't know or opted not to say.  I have to give him some credit for that.  

 

12 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

So what were the offers and which 4 teams?

That is the question we all want to know.  All Jason said was that 4 teams "apparently I've now heard all pacific division teams were calling about Sutter and team's phone was ringing for a week straight from the teams interested.  It's convenient timing this is leaked a few days ago by Jason just before Vegas was poised to make the finals.  If you were going to spew a bs rumour just before Vegas their primary competitor reaches the cup final. it would be more believable at that time more than ever.  Just the whole Vegas storyline is comical and I could use a writer making up some nonsense for the sake of creating controversy.. but with that said. I have never seen Jason Botchford ever fabricate a story. He has joked about making up stories, but he has never crossed that line to my knowledge.  He may have. But I haven't seen proof of that yet in any of his work.  The source for this was the Patcast Link here: http://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/the-pat-cast-becoming-the-pett-cast Also heard referenced again today on Nation Network Radio who are part of that tsn conglomerate. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

It is Jason Botchford after all lol. I have to give him props tho. He knew an announcement around the twins was coming the weekend before.  To what extend he either didn't know or opted not to say.  I have to give him some credit for that.  

 

That is the question we all want to know.  All Jason said was that 4 teams "apparently I've now heard all pacific division teams were calling about Sutter and team's phone was ringing for a week straight from the teams interested.  It's convenient timing this is leaked a few days ago by Jason just before Vegas was poised to make the finals.  If you were going to spew a bs rumour just before Vegas their primary competitor reaches the cup final. it would be more believable at that time more than ever.  Just the whole Vegas storyline is comical and I could use a writer making up some nonsense for the sake of creating controversy.. but with that said. I have never seen Jason Botchford ever fabricate a story. He has joked about making up stories, but he has never crossed that line to my knowledge.  He may have. But I haven't seen proof of that yet in any of his work.  The source for this was the Patcast Link here: http://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/the-pat-cast-becoming-the-pett-cast Also heard referenced again today on Nation Network Radio who are part of that tsn conglomerate. 

I’ve heard JB say he gets calls about most of their players.  Botchford could say the Canucks had calls on pretty much every player.  It’s the “offers” part I take exception to.  

[Provost]

18 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

No there's about 3: https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2019/caphit/all/center/ufa/desc/1/right

 

Bozak will cost just as much if not more, and the other right handed shut down C's are not as good. Beagle would be a great option as a 4C but he's nowhere near as fast as Sutter. 

 

And you'd be making the Sutter deal hoping that you get one of these free agents, which you may not. Benning would be leaving the C depth gutted and thats not how they are going to build this team. Sure you'd get some picks and maybe a prospect that can help what, 4 or 5 seasons from now? It doesn't make sense for how they want to get this team back to being competitive again. 

 

Now you have gone from being wrong to simply being purposefully disingenuous.  There are a dozen guys at or above his production levels, you are just picking right handed centres for no particular reason.

There is no reason to limit it to right handed centres at all, that is simply trying to make your argument.  We don't know who our 2nd and 4th line centres are going to be, so we don't know if they would both or neither be right handed.  The current other centres we have in the system for the bottom two lines in the absence of Sutter or a replacement that are most likely to play are right handed in Gagner and Gaudette.

We aren't going to go into the season with Sutter as our 2nd line centre, he is not going to be put with offensive wingers like Petterson.  The brass has pretty much said as much, that they need to find a guy to replace Hank and that Petterson will be playing the wing initially and not in that slot and needs to play with offensive players.  We will be signing or trading for someone to fill that slot.

We are talking about replacing the 3rd line centre spot.  Sutter will be the 3rd line centre in virtually every scenario except Benning trying really hard but failing to find a guy to play in the top 6 AND them deciding somehow that he is a better option on an offensive line than giving Petterson a try.  If that is the case, we have much bigger problems than our two top line centres being left handed.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Provost said:

Now you have gone from being wrong to simply being purposefully disingenuous.  There are a dozen guys at or above his production levels, you are just picking right handed centres for no particular reason.

There is no reason to limit it to right handed centres at all, that is simply trying to make your argument.  We don't know who our 2nd and 4th line centres are going to be, so we don't know if they would both or neither be right handed.  The current other centres we have in the system for the bottom two lines in the absence of Sutter or a replacement that are most likely to play are right handed in Gagner and Gaudette.

We aren't going to go into the season with Sutter as our 2nd line centre, he is not going to be put with offensive wingers like Petterson.  The brass has pretty much said as much, that they need to find a guy to replace Hank and that Petterson will be playing the wing initially and not in that slot and needs to play with offensive players.  We will be signing or trading for someone to fill that slot.

We are talking about replacing the 3rd line centre spot.  Sutter will be the 3rd line centre in virtually every scenario except Benning trying really hard but failing to find a guy to play in the top 6 AND them deciding somehow that he is a better option on an offensive line than giving Petterson a try.  If that is the case, we have much bigger problems than our two top line centres being left handed.

How do you define your centres?  Bo plays the most minutes; he’s the one.  Sutter plays against the other teams’ top centres, takes Dzone draws (on the right side) and plays PK.  He plays the second most minutes; he’s our two.  Pettersson and Gaudette play three and four, and get sheltered minutes because we have Bo and Sutter, who are both very good at logging heavy minutes.  I think having 

Sutter at two makes us look really good for now, and for the future.  

[Rush17]

I am curious if this rumour is true who that 4th Pacific team was. I suspect it was Arizona.  

 

Patcast topic starts around 33 minute mark.  http://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/the-pat-cast-becoming-the-pett-cast

[elvis15]

4 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Like every potential trade it is tough to judge if it's the right call or wrong call without knowing the key info of what the potential return would have been. If they offered garbage then of course you are right to blow them off. If they offered a massive overpayment then you are an idiot to blow them off. Sutter is a good player but not irreplaceable for the right price.

I doubt they were offering close to the right price, but if the report is true (since it's Botchford, who knows) then it does show Sutter has some worth - even at his current contract.

[ohmy]

1 hour ago, kingofsurrey said:

More like 10 goals a year and declining 

Thats statistically incorrect. Career average is 16 goals over 82 games. Just had 11 in a shortened season. 

[flickyoursedin]

My goodness other teams are about to miss the playoffs and understand the process of selling high when players are at a premium. Guys like McDonagh, JT Miller, Stastny, Hartman, Brassard and many others are moved for a premium. Then here we are holding onto Tanevs and Sutters like they’re generational talents that we’ll never be able to replace. This is going to be the LONGEST rebuild ever. Keep all your vets and let them walk when their value has diminished. What’s the point in keeping them? With Tanev and Sutter we’re picking 7th last instead of 4th last. Jeeze I’m sure glad we held onto those guys. Tanev and Sutter’s value will be less next year than this year and so on and so on. So let’s play the waiting game....brilliant.

[Vinny in Vancouver]

1 hour ago, Hutton Wink said:

Yeah, those four teams that kept hounding Benning were sure they were eventually going to get him for that 2020 5th rounder.  Persistence over getting a fringe low-production overpaid player, makes sense.

 

Curious though, how the story goes that like Gudbranson and Dorsett and Baertschi (or half the Canucks roster) that apparently "you can easily get players like that in free agency."

Goodness, Hutton. Getting uptight again over some rumours and from your favourite whipping boy local reporter to boot (I guess when the rumour fits your narrative, the unreliable reporter all of a sudden becomes reliable...) I've never seen you ever question any of the management's decision - like ever. You seem like you work for them. (I bet that if management chooses Sutter over Horvat as Team Captain, you'd find a way to justify the move.) Just tell the rest of us lower sapiens what was offered. Or even better, go to the other teams' forums and ask them what they think their team offered.