Why do some excessively criticize prospects?

[Rob_Zepp]

Hey, I get it.   Some of these kids are going to make millions, retire in their thirties, and some even marry supermodels.  The jealously factor is one card I guess in some of the vitriol.   IF they make it, they are beneficiaries of a society with some pretty odd priorities (how we pay professional athletes in compare to top teachers, doctors, nurses, police etc.).   

 

However, while these players are still essentially kids, and often before they have even played an NHL game let alone player through their ELC, they are exposed to a plethora of criticisms ranging from:

• unrealistic expectations - particularly if compared to some fantasy world where they have to develop as fast, or faster, than every other player in the world, to
• widespread contempt for being human - they cannot get sick, make a few errors in social media judgment or even sleep in late once in a while.  God forbid they have a hobby outside hockey.

 

Constructive criticism (would be great to see X work on his skating, I wish Y would get some help on rebound control, Z needs to up the physical game a bit but is making strides ...and similar) is great and seems healthy....you want the prospects for your team to improve.   However, reading some forums and listening on line to both radio hosts and some callers, wow so some some of these "fans" ever come across as clingy, vicarious humans with absolutely no lives.   It is almost that if a given prospect, let alone "their team", doesn't live up to "their expectations" then they feel personally slighted and need to lash out in some aggressive manner.   How is that remotely healthy?   It is almost like some people don't think that these 18-22 year old kids are TRYING to not improve, TRYING to not become elite or TRYING to not help the team win.   

 

Take the sports talk radio your team has - other than Todd Bertuzzi who I have heard three times now (and is excellent), have you ever listened?   The hosts are VERY negative and pass on any potential tidbit they can invent/imagine that seemingly makes the team they cover seem worse due to the addition of the given prospect.   Someone sent me a link to a recent show by David Pratt who I remember being in Toronto.   He essentially implied he KNEW something about a Canuck prospect to true even though it was not only false, but the implication was vile.   The callers in picked up on the blood in the water and they collectively worked themselves into a frenzy.   Even when a prospect does something great, it is couched with "that wasn't in the NHL" or "he is wrong body type" or "Player X did this and would been a better pick" and so on.  The callers rarely ever seem to make a valid point and those that do are seemingly ignored as they don't buy into to the fantasy/contrived controversy. Often seems like they're (both the radio host and the fans, both on radio and on the internet in forums) are venting personal frustrations. And almost always these vents seem desperate for some kind, any kind, of human contact the validates their frustration.   Again, how is that healthy for anyone?

 

I sincerely don't get it.  Your team's prospects are you team's prospects.   Whatever team(s) you choose to follow.  Why not support them?   It would be like a parent saying to their kid "You suck, why don't you be more like X?!" versus "Great game! Too bad on that chance, if you want we could spend some more time on your shot next week" or similar.  Sure, constructive criticism is fine but what value is there in the over-the-top crap?   Why repeat vicious rumours - rumours that are almost ALWAYS wrong.  Why even speculate?    Sure, it can be fun to poke at a rival team's players and there can be legitimate issues with some players (where lines are so clearly crossed that there is no question) but those are different situations.

 

A lot of various prospect combines have either started or are coming up in the next few weeks, including that for various CHL drafts and, of course, the NHL draft.   Your team will likely have 5 or 6 new prospects later this summer.   Support them.

 

Anyone who has spent time around sports is sure to have witnessed inappropriate "fan" behaviour.  A fan has an incredible opportunity to make an impact on their prospect’s success and, by extension, that fan's team.   Some may get caught up in their own frustrations in life and lose sight of this.  Inappropriate behavior can have long lasting, negative consequences on prospects.  Some seem to think things don't get back to the players - give your head a shake if you believe that. 

 

Just having a nice reflection after a long flight.   Cheer your prospects when they do well but cheer harder to encourage them when they need it the most....the times they are not doing as well.

[Fanuck]

Honestly Rob,  this wouldn't be CDC if there weren't a bunch of Jackalopes criticizing EVERYTHING this franchise does or doesn't do - this would just be the Canucks Peace Love & Harmony forum lol!

 

I get exactly what you're trying to say but I look at CDC as a reflection of greater society to some degree and you know as well as I do there are 'those' kinds of people  (hyper-critical/negative) throughout society so there's bound to be a similar sample size here.

 

Rest up from your flight.....better times ahead for our franchise! 

[Rounoush]

Canucks fans are very used to disappointment so they temper their expectations so they aren't devastated in the future if they don't pan out.

[Alflives]

I think we have fans of other teams, who are infiltrating our board, especially ones who’s teams don’t have active boards.  Those posters make some nasty comments about our players, and our city.  They are, of course, entitled to their opinions.  

[BlackBeard]

Why do some fans excessively hype/exaggerate their prospects potentials? Could it be that their high expectation of this prospects leads them to become more critical of them when they dont live up to what they were suppose to be? Hmmmm.

[richado]

People get upset when the reality doesn't unfold like their expectations (even beyond hockey), which they feel justified in having. Instead of critiquing your own expectations it's easier to pin the fault on the player or management, despite drafting often being a crapshoot. You either reconsider your evaluation or management's evaluation, and it's much easier to point blame elsewhere than take responsibility or admit you were somehow wrong.

 

It's also an easy way to try and appear intelligent, or at least feel intelligent, as you're putting your opinion up against a professional management team who have had successful careers in order to get where they are and claiming that they're wrong, or that they missed something that you claim to know about the prospect. You can inflate your ego this way and it can feel pretty good, I guess.

 

Having said that I think reasonable criticism is good. I just think personal egos get wrapped up in prospect evaluations, and an opinion of a prospect can end up being an act of defending your ego or saving face. Maybe I'm wrong but that's the thoughts coming to my mind.

[Alflives]

Just now, BlackBeard said:

Why do some fans excessively hype/exaggerate their prospects potentials? Could it be that their high expectation of this prospects leads them to become more critical of them when they dont live up to what they were suppose to be? Hmmmm.

So true.  I read this all the time on the Laugh’s propaganda machines - TSN and Rogers.  Their franchise and fans are so duped by these lies, that they actually believe the garbage they are sold.  Leaf’s have to be the worst for overvaluing their players, by far.  I don’t blame them though.  It’s the propaganda that is controlling their beliefs.  

[Coconuts]

Unrealistic expectations is a big one, as a person and as a professional. We've been spoiled with some great players over the last decade and a bit and we've had some great character guys come through the organization. Not everyone is going to have the sublime skill or bulletproof professionalism of the Sedin twins. Not everyone can be big, munch minutes, contribute offensively, fight and hit like Ohlund. Not everyone is tough as nails and defensively sound like Mitchell. Not every goaltender is going to be able to dominate and almost will us to the playoffs like Luongo did in the early days. Hell, not every prospect is going to come in as mature as Horvat has. But some people reach for the best we've had and drag our guys down when they're anything less. Unrealistic expectations of potential will almost always lead to disappointment. Sometimes you just gotta take a step back and watch a player be the best player they can be. Horvat isn't gonna be the next Bergeron, he's gonna continue working to be the best Bo Horvat he can be.

 

Some folks make the mistake of expecting perfection as if our guys are hockey machines out there while simultaneously expecting them to be perfect off the ice. Charity work, community involvement, hospital visits, ect. I get that they make a lot of money and they're public figures but they're humans too and none of us are perfect. Instead of railing on supposed video game addiction and whatnot we should be trying to support our guys the best we can. That's not to say we should all be blind kool-aid drinking hockey fanatics who blindly cheer for everything, but so many hockey fans misconstrue their negativity for constructive criticism.  

[Ghostsof1915]

If you look at our draft history, until Benning came along having an impact player late in the first round was unthinkable. 

Yet the team has more than it's fair share of disappointments. Like Nedved instead of Jagr. Herter over Adam Foote. 

Bryan Allen over Tangay or Simon Gagne (Or Regher for that matter). 

 

But its the same problem in the NFL draft. They don't look at the attributes the kid can bring to the table, and exaggerate the average skills until it's a negative. 

The reality is these are 18 year old kids, you are trying to project where they will end up after 5-10 years. 

 

At least in Football you've got 4 years of college to see what you've got. In the NHL draft you have only junior to really draw upon. And a lot of times junior doesn't always translate into success. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Competition is what makes sport so great. We all want our team to win. Being a fan doesn’t mean you have to blindly believe every player on our roster is destined for greatness. Even on our own roster it’s extremely competitive. If someone isn’t holding there own we don’t want politics preventing others from getting opportunity.  Just look st what happened it’s Sven in Calgary. He didn’t get the opportunity that others got and ended up breaking out for another team. 

 

Being a fan doesn’t mean you can’t also be a fan of the sport. it doesn’t mean you have to hold our own players to easier standards. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with every decision this team has done. It doesn’t even mean you have to like every player, that’s not being a fan, that’s being homer.  I’m sure there were players you played with on your own team that you didn’t like very much  it didn’t mean you were hoping to still win. 

 

I think the line gets crossed too often where people ignore reslity and live in a dream world where everything is perfect. The last think we want this base to become is the next leafs nation. Calling a rookie on another team a bust while stating a rookie of our own is great (despite having accomplished less) doesn’t mean you’re fan. It means you’re stupid. Being a fan. Cheer for the Canucks to win but leave the rose covered glasses to the leafs fans. 

 

If a player cant handle criticism from fans they likely aren’t going to make it anyway. We want players who thrive under tough situations who can kick it up a gear when they face adversity. 

 

 

[Rick Blight]

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Hey, I get it.   Some of these kids are going to make millions, retire in their thirties, and some even marry supermodels.  The jealously factor is one card I guess in some of the vitriol.   IF they make it, they are beneficiaries of a society with some pretty odd priorities (how we pay professional athletes in compare to top teachers, doctors, nurses, police etc.).   

 

However, while these players are still essentially kids, and often before they have even played an NHL game let alone player through their ELC, they are exposed to a plethora of criticisms ranging from:

• unrealistic expectations - particularly if compared to some fantasy world where they have to develop as fast, or faster, than every other player in the world, to
• widespread contempt for being human - they cannot get sick, make a few errors in social media judgment or even sleep in late once in a while.  God forbid they have a hobby outside hockey.

 

Constructive criticism (would be great to see X work on his skating, I wish Y would get some help on rebound control, Z needs to up the physical game a bit but is making strides ...and similar) is great and seems healthy....you want the prospects for your team to improve.   However, reading some forums and listening on line to both radio hosts and some callers, wow so some some of these "fans" ever come across as clingy, vicarious humans with absolutely no lives.   It is almost that if a given prospect, let alone "their team", doesn't live up to "their expectations" then they feel personally slighted and need to lash out in some aggressive manner.   How is that remotely healthy?   It is almost like some people don't think that these 18-22 year old kids are TRYING to not improve, TRYING to not become elite or TRYING to not help the team win.   

 

Take the sports talk radio your team has - other than Todd Bertuzzi who I have heard three times now (and is excellent), have you ever listened?   The hosts are VERY negative and pass on any potential tidbit they can invent/imagine that seemingly makes the team they cover seem worse due to the addition of the given prospect.   Someone sent me a link to a recent show by David Pratt who I remember being in Toronto.   He essentially implied he KNEW something about a Canuck prospect to true even though it was not only false, but the implication was vile.   The callers in picked up on the blood in the water and they collectively worked themselves into a frenzy.   Even when a prospect does something great, it is couched with "that wasn't in the NHL" or "he is wrong body type" or "Player X did this and would been a better pick" and so on.  The callers rarely ever seem to make a valid point and those that do are seemingly ignored as they don't buy into to the fantasy/contrived controversy. Often seems like they're (both the radio host and the fans, both on radio and on the internet in forums) are venting personal frustrations. And almost always these vents seem desperate for some kind, any kind, of human contact the validates their frustration.   Again, how is that healthy for anyone?

 

I sincerely don't get it.  Your team's prospects are you team's prospects.   Whatever team(s) you choose to follow.  Why not support them?   It would be like a parent saying to their kid "You suck, why don't you be more like X?!" versus "Great game! Too bad on that chance, if you want we could spend some more time on your shot next week" or similar.  Sure, constructive criticism is fine but what value is there in the over-the-top crap?   Why repeat vicious rumours - rumours that are almost ALWAYS wrong.  Why even speculate?    Sure, it can be fun to poke at a rival team's players and there can be legitimate issues with some players (where lines are so clearly crossed that there is no question) but those are different situations.

 

A lot of various prospect combines have either started or are coming up in the next few weeks, including that for various CHL drafts and, of course, the NHL draft.   Your team will likely have 5 or 6 new prospects later this summer.   Support them.

 

Anyone who has spent time around sports is sure to have witnessed inappropriate "fan" behaviour.  A fan has an incredible opportunity to make an impact on their prospect’s success and, by extension, that fan's team.   Some may get caught up in their own frustrations in life and lose sight of this.  Inappropriate behavior can have long lasting, negative consequences on prospects.  Some seem to think things don't get back to the players - give your head a shake if you believe that. 

 

Just having a nice reflection after a long flight.   Cheer your prospects when they do well but cheer harder to encourage them when they need it the most....the times they are not doing as well.

Unfortunately, it will always be thus until the Canucks go 82 - 0 and win 16 straight to capture the Cup.

 

Fans will always want to critique their teams and will offer their views on what can be done to improve team performance ranging from management to the on ice product. However, some go over the top with their strong opinions (both ways) and is not always well received by those with the opposing points of view. There is not much that can be done about that and we all need to be a little more tolerant of these differing views.

 

I take exception to those that make personal attacks on our management, players or other posters as I do not believe that is necessary to make your point. Those that truly believe they can do a better job at managing the team, coaching the team or playing on the team are delusional but those that are just offering an opinion, either seriously or in jest, should have their opinions received without fear of reprisal.

 

As has been stated in an earlier post, this is a reflection of today's social media driven society and I truly doubt we will see it change.

[bloodycanuckleheads]

Why do some people obsessively and delusionally fawn over prospects (even though the vast majority of the prospects they were fawning over in the past have no chance of making the NHL now)?

[captainhorvat]

Because we are all canucks

[Odd.]

49 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

 

 

 

I sincerely don't get it.  Your team's prospects are you team's prospects.   Whatever team(s) you choose to follow.  Why not support them?   It would be like a parent saying to their kid "You suck, why don't you be more like X?!" versus "Great game! Too bad on that chance, if you want we could spend some more time on your shot next week" or similar.  Sure, constructive criticism is fine but what value is there in the over-the-top crap?   Why repeat vicious rumours - rumours that are almost ALWAYS wrong.  Why even speculate?    Sure, it can be fun to poke at a rival team's players and there can be legitimate issues with some players (where lines are so clearly crossed that there is no question) but those are different situations.

 

 

 

 

Criticism is good, if it's deserved. You say some overly criticize players, but I would say there are more people who hype up prospects and put on insane expectations, and when they don't reach those expectations, they become upset.

 

When a team has gone through nearly a decade of poor drafting with barely any NHL'ers coming out in that span, not to mention poor drafting that dates even further, and then all of a sudden we now have the strongest prospect pool this franchise has ever seen, we don't know what it feels to have this amount of good prospects. Expectations are going to be all over the place. There's always going to be people who cannot distinguish fantasy and reality.

 

Virtanen, for example, as much as I hope he achieves his potential, has been disappointing, there's no denying that and that's okay. Players can have setbacks and whatnot, or it basically means he just hasn't turned out to what we had originally hoped. But when you criticize other team's prospects and claim that our player will turn out better, despite that player so far showing no significant signs, when the others have already accomplished some terrific feats, then you really need to ask yourself this: Are you really a fan, or just delusional?

[Rob_Zepp]

4 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Competition is what makes sport so great. We all want our team to win. Being a fan doesn’t mean you have to blindly believe every player on our roster is destined for greatness. Even on our own roster it’s extremely competitive. If someone isn’t holding there own we don’t want politics preventing others from getting opportunity.  Just look st what happened it’s Sven in Calgary. He didn’t get the opportunity that others got and ended up breaking out for another team. 

 

Being a fan doesn’t mean you can’t also be a fan of the sport. it doesn’t mean you have to hold our own players to easier standards. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with every decision this team has done. It doesn’t even mean you have to like every player, that’s not being a fan, that’s being homer.  I’m sure there were players you played with on your own team that you didn’t like very much  it didn’t mean you were hoping to still win. 

 

I think the line gets crossed too often where people ignore reslity and live in a dream world where everything is perfect. The last think we want this base to become is the next leafs nation. Calling a rookie on another team a bust while stating a rookie of our own is great (despite having accomplished less) doesn’t mean you’re fan. It means you’re stupid. Being a fan. Cheer for the Canucks to win but leave the rose covered glasses to the leafs fans. 

 

If a player cant handle criticism from fans they likely aren’t going to make it anyway. We want players who thrive under tough situations who can kick it up a gear when they face adversity. 

 

 

I agree with all of this...well said.   I am not questioning legitimate constructive criticism....just the out of left field, fantasy world crap where these kids not only have to be perfect and impervious to injury, illness and, God forbid, a slower development path than another of the earth's 6 billion people, but have to also endure the fabricated, vile and (if not doing anonymously on the internet or call-in radio) near libelous claims on everything in their lives.    I personally think it is sick.

 

Mistakes are going to happen.   Every player, ever team - yup, will make them.   However, once a mistake is made by a player, it cannot be undone.    Same with management.   You can't blame a prospect for being drafted or traded for by the team that you follow.   Right?   

 

Again, I have no issue with constructive criticism.    In the case of the Canucks, more of the prospects with threads on this will NOT succeed in the NHL than do....simply historical facts about the NHL and prospects more than assures that.   However, none of these kids are not trying to improve, not trying to make the big club someday and not trying to juggle all the various challenges becoming a young adult under a microscope entails.   Keeping out of their personal lives, particularly when it is invented crap, and giving them some time to develop to see where they get to - does that really take that much effort?    

 

Everyone (well, not so sure sometimes on this board) have jobs and contribute to society.   Every one in those jobs has to be open to constructive criticism - part of the gig.   Even if someone is a Fortune 500 CEO, they answer to a Board who will hold feet to a fire.    All that is fine.   There are clear lines though - just as their is with fans and prospects - why do people cross them?   It is so bizarre to me.   

[Rob_Zepp]

10 minutes ago, Odd. said:

 

 

Criticism is good, if it's deserved. You say some overly criticize players, but I would say there are more people who hype up prospects and put on insane expectations, and when they don't reach those expectations, they become upset.

 

When a team has gone through nearly a decade of poor drafting with barely any NHL'ers coming out in that span, not to mention poor drafting that dates even further, and then all of a sudden we now have the strongest prospect pool this franchise has ever seen, we don't know what it feels to have this amount of good prospects. Expectations are going to be all over the place. There's always going to be people who cannot distinguish fantasy and reality.

 

Virtanen, for example, as much as I hope he achieves his potential, has been disappointing, there's no denying that and that's okay. Players can have setbacks and whatnot, or it basically means he just hasn't turned out to what we had originally hoped. But when you criticize other team's prospects and claim that our player will turn out better, despite that player so far showing no significant signs, when the others have already accomplished some terrific feats, then you really need to ask yourself this: Are you really a fan, or just delusional?

This is solid too.   Yes, some get over the top hyped about kids and that can lead to disappointment too but the difference I see is other than some disappointment, at least no ones personal life is being lied about.   Being disappointed in a prospect is more than OK - again, you say it really well in that you point to a player you are disappointed in but hope he achieves his potential.   That means you still support that player.    Great!   He can't change that he is a player/prospect for your team and either can you - my guess he is more disappointed with not meeting his full potential than anyone but knowing fans still support him potentially getting there certainly will help.    However, until someone is truly through their ELC, comparing them to anyone else seems very premature....as half the Vegas team are showing the rest of the NHL.   Moreover, people often see other team's players in a better light than they see their own (if they are prone to being critical) - trust me, Winnipeg "fans" and Toronto "fans" have had some pretty mean (and over the top) things to say about Nylander and Ehlers (sticking with your example) after this years playoffs.

 

I do, apparently like yourself, get a kick out of people putting together a team's projected roster a year or two down that road that has pretty much every draft pick making the NHL.   NHL teams are LUCKY if two players per draft make it and stay with that organization more than five years.   There are year-on-year exceptions to that rule but over time, that is about the average.   For example, will all of Gadjovich, Lind, Gaudette and DiPietro make the NHL and be stars?   Statistically, not a hope.   However, they are Canuck prospects so as fans, why not support them to see what happens?

 

Anyway, good post.   

[higgyfan]

I find that the majority of CDC fans (at least the posts that I have read over the years) are fairly reasonable in there assessment of prospects.  This board has a very different tone than say...HFboards.

 

I don't mind criticism of our teams young players, as long as the comments are well thought out and not just "he sucks, he's a bum, etc."  Obviously young players have weaknesses in their game and there is always room to improve.  Any deficiency identified by fans has already been addressed by the coach and the prospect is well aware of the improvement he needs to make.

 

Some people get really intense with their opinions and sometimes cross the line of civility, which is too bad.  Canuck fans are a passionate lot and can jump into a heated argument quickly.

 

CDC has a large membership, so there are fans with different levels of understanding of the game.  A relatively new fan isn't likely going to post the more balanced comments that a long time fan might.  There's a good chance that, like our young prospects...they will learn and develop too.

 

 

[guntrix]

It's threads like these that make me wonder if CDC lives under a rock. Criticism is part of not only every NHL team but every single sport in existence. When someone tries to psycho-analyze why fans are criticizing a professional athlete, it's difficult not to let out a laugh. 

 

Criticism is justified when it's deserved. If you want to understand how sheltered Vancouver is in this regard, you should see how intense it gets with soccer over in Europe and in South America. Maybe then there wouldn't be so much pouting about potentially hurting someone's feelings. 

[oldnews]

[TimberWolf]

Why do some fans excessively criticize the fan base?