(Proposal) All in this Draft

[TheGuardian_]

1 minute ago, higgyfan said:

 

They were a playoff team from 2008-2014, but for the one season when Torts was the coach, which  many considered an anomaly; possibly even the management staff. The following season the team had 101pts in the regular season and the twins were still putting up almost a ppg.

 

Just because a team loses in round 1 of the playoffs, doesn't mean it should be stripped down and rebuilt.

 

I suspect the majority on this board would say that the rebuild started in the 2015/16 season.  That would be Canucks are going into their 3rd year of rebuild actually.  That was when it became clear that the team could not keep up with the rest of the league. 

 

Regardless, how can you compare the Canucks rebuild to the Oilers, who had 9 top 10 draft picks (4 that were 1st overall) in the past 9 years?  Oh yeah, and here they are getting another top 10 this year.  LOL

Making the playoffs wasn't the issue, they only had to be better than two other clubs, it was only winning one playoff game out of 9 and 3 out of 14.

How to compare? Are Virtanen and OJ doing any worse than some of Edmonton's? Edmonton had to build up to 10 years of being crappy, the Nucks are in year 6? The best draft pick the Nucks/Linden/Benning have so far was a 26th or so, 25 other GM's passed on him but he was BPA and ranked right where the Nucks drafted him.

While the Nucks were winning Pres trophies and 29th picks, Edmonton missed on a lot of later picks as well and in Vancouver we don't know because none have made or played on the team. 

I believe that Linden was not lying when he said they would not rebuild as long as the Sedins were here, he did say that more than once so I hope the rebuild starts this year. Trading Burrows and Hansen are minimal moves that teams outside of the playoffs routinely make, it was just a big deal here because it hadn't happened with this management group until then, but it is just expected to happen. Rebuidling and trading at the trade deadline, IMO, would have been more impactful players for early draft picks the following year, planning ahead for the draft 2 or 3 years in the future.  

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, TheGuardian_ said:

You are probably correct, but I wonder how much trying to replace 150 pts out of the line up will dictate their decisions. That does give me concern because they didn't have a transition plan evident. Also I am not sure how much more rope they have with regards to being almost DFL for the last three years. Certainly the Sedins were supposed to be mentors for the top line and other players but there really isn't any except Boeser maybe, Sven, Granlund, Sutter, Gudbranson, Gagner and most of the team aren't the guys in the future. That was the age group Benning/Linden jettisoned when first hired in favour of older players.

 

Those teams that had loads of picks, ya, I am thinking that the Canucks may be going the same route, it is nice to have veterans but it nice if those veterans have been on winning teams and apart from very few players on the team, most have not played more than one winning season. It is great that the vets can help the players stay steady but those same players aren't exactly lynch pins of success. Most of them were support players on teams they have played for before.

 

Edmonton's 10 year joke was also broken up with an appearance in the playoffs, the Canucks would now be in year six with the team being the worst team in the league over the last three years barring loser/OT points. Getting Oilish.

You bet.  Getting Oilish without the luxury of first overalls...I'm thinking we are closer to following ARI and CAR, some good pieces but way too many holes to plug.  We knew this team wouldn't bottom out until the Sedins were done, thankfully they are and we can get on with it.   As far as replacing those points, Benning could sign Vanek  again, that would help and his contract length fits our current model, and it's possible Pettersson can score 25 goals which would replace the actual goals that left which is really what matters the most.  Hopefully this years pick won't take long to make the lineup, draft plus one would be great. 

 

Its our our defense that worries me the most, adding Green to a fair contract I'd be ok with we need the goals from the back end too.  Bouchard or Dobson would help eventually, seeing all the draft picks in suits shaking hands with Cherry Hughes looked tiny tiny tiny small next to Bouchard, so did Dobson he's a skinny guy, only Tkchuk looked his size.   Off topic but I hope whomever we get this year can become a true number one...Bouchard and Dobson are my favourites

[J.I.A.H.N]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

You bet.  Getting Oilish without the luxury of first overalls...I'm thinking we are closer to following ARI and CAR, some good pieces but way too many holes to plug.  We knew this team wouldn't bottom out until the Sedins were done, thankfully they are and we can get on with it.   As far as replacing those points, Benning could sign Vanek  again, that would help and his contract length fits our current model, and it's possible Pettersson can score 25 goals which would replace the actual goals that left which is really what matters the most.  Hopefully this years pick won't take long to make the lineup, draft plus one would be great. 

 

Its our our defense that worries me the most, adding Green to a fair contract I'd be ok with we need the goals from the back end too.  Bouchard or Dobson would help eventually, seeing all the draft picks in suits shaking hands with Cherry Hughes looked tiny tiny tiny small next to Bouchard, so did Dobson he's a skinny guy, only Tkchuk looked his size.   Off topic but I hope whomever we get this year can become a true number one...Bouchard and Dobson are my favourites

The difference from Edmonton and Arizona is we have cap space.......so..........

Let's not get too impatient and hold onto that space, until we can spend it on a good Dmen or a Good Center when we are ready, not before

The one thing that really pissed me off last few seasons was filling our roster with veterans, when we should have been placing low

Miller and Eriksson come to mind, first off, but Vanek, Gagner, MDZ, Nilsson were all intended to help us, "while the Sedin's were here

What a bunch of bunk!

 

The Sedin's were declining, and the world wanted to win for them..............how well did that serve us?

Same as this year winning all the games at the end of the year? How did that serve us?

Well, we now have a great bunch of young players, but we are not finished our rebuild

First off, the ones we have must mature as hockey players. then we need to fill in those holes with strong, fast, smart, intense veteran UFA's

Which I don't have a problem with them doing, when the time is right.

But in the mean time, we need to move some of those that can be moved that will not be in our core in 3/4 years, and add more picks for this year.

 

Now, the reason, I believe we should be moving players that will not be in our core in 3/4 years, this year, is we want them to mature, within the

same time frame, as the other core players, or as near as possible.

 

I am not going to name the players we should move because that always starts an argument on here, but

We need to move 3 or 4 of them this year for picks......whether they be, 1st's or 2nd's, either works in a deep draft

Then stay down for the year after that and take our 2019 1st and 2nd as well..........That gives them 2 and 3 years after being picked to mature

Like I said 3/4 years to maturity............and most likely competing.

 

So, any cap space we could use must be clear by then, to A - pay our players, and to B - pick up a couple of good UFA's to fill in the holes

But again that should be at a later time, when they can be useful and help us compete for a top 10 spot

 

Love ya all, but man there has been some people here with a lack of focus

I could keep on going, but I am going to shut up!

"KIRK OUT!"

 

[higgyfan]

15 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Making the playoffs wasn't the issue, they only had to be better than two other clubs, it was only winning one playoff game out of 9 and 3 out of 14.

With the twins nearing a ppg and the team having +100 pt season, it would be pretty hard to justify a rebuild.  The real problem is that the cupboard was bare in the prospect dept.  There was no depth, so bringing in the necessary pieces was extremely difficult.

 

15 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

How to compare? Are Virtanen and OJ doing any worse than some of Edmonton's? Edmonton had to build up to 10 years of being crappy, the Nucks are in year 6?

Oilers have had far and away much better opportunities than Vancouver.  Even still, without the lucky ping pong ball McD, where do you think they would be now and in the next few years.

 

Nucks are in year 3?

 

15 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

The best draft pick the Nucks/Linden/Benning have so far was a 26th or so, 25 other GM's passed on him but he was BPA and ranked right where the Nucks drafted him.

While the Nucks were winning Pres trophies and 29th picks, Edmonton missed on a lot of later picks as well and in Vancouver we don't know because none have made or played on the team. 

So that means they never will?  The potential looks hugely better than it was a few years ago.

 

15 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I believe that Linden was not lying when he said they would not rebuild as long as the Sedins were here, he did say that more than once so I hope the rebuild starts this year.

Really?  You're the only person I know that doesn't think it started at least 2 years ago.

 

15 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Trading Burrows and Hansen are minimal moves that teams outside of the playoffs routinely make, it was just a big deal here because it hadn't happened with this management group until then, but it is just expected to happen. Rebuidling and trading at the trade deadline, IMO, would have been more impactful players for early draft picks the following year, planning ahead for the draft 2 or 3 years in the future.  

Are we talking about Hamhuis and Vrbata again?  Hamhuis had just come off an injury and only wanted to go to one team.  Nobody wanted Vrbata.  Once again the lack of prospect depth (until more recently) has put the team in the position where they need to keep vets as 'holding places.'

 

Imo, the team is heading in the right direction.  Hopefully we will see 2 or 3 rookies on the team this season and a few more next.  They may not be a contending team for awhile, but they will be young and developing.  I also think that Green is the right coach for a young developing team and will get the most out of his players.

[TheGuardian_]

1 hour ago, higgyfan said:

17 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Making the playoffs wasn't the issue, they only had to be better than two other clubs, it was only winning one playoff game out of 9 and 3 out of 14.

With the twins nearing a ppg and the team having +100 pt season, it would be pretty hard to justify a rebuild.  The real problem is that the cupboard was bare in the prospect dept.  There was no depth, so bringing in the necessary pieces was extremely difficult.

 

Quote

How to compare? Are Virtanen and OJ doing any worse than some of Edmonton's? Edmonton had to build up to 10 years of being crappy, the Nucks are in year 6?

Oilers have had far and away much better opportunities than Vancouver.  Even still, without the lucky ping pong ball McD, where do you think they would be now and in the next few years.

 

Nucks are in year 3?

 

Quote

The best draft pick the Nucks/Linden/Benning have so far was a 26th or so, 25 other GM's passed on him but he was BPA and ranked right where the Nucks drafted him.

While the Nucks were winning Pres trophies and 29th picks, Edmonton missed on a lot of later picks as well and in Vancouver we don't know because none have made or played on the team. 

So that means they never will?  The potential looks hugely better than it was a few years ago.

 

Quote

I believe that Linden was not lying when he said they would not rebuild as long as the Sedins were here, he did say that more than once so I hope the rebuild starts this year.

Really?  You're the only person I know that doesn't think it started at least 2 years ago.

 

Quote

Trading Burrows and Hansen are minimal moves that teams outside of the playoffs routinely make, it was just a big deal here because it hadn't happened with this management group until then, but it is just expected to happen. Rebuidling and trading at the trade deadline, IMO, would have been more impactful players for early draft picks the following year, planning ahead for the draft 2 or 3 years in the future.  

Are we talking about Hamhuis and Vrbata again?  Hamhuis had just come off an injury and only wanted to go to one team.  Nobody wanted Vrbata.  Once again the lack of prospect depth (until more recently) has put the team in the position where they need to keep vets as 'holding places.'

 

Imo, the team is heading in the right direction.  Hopefully we will see 2 or 3 rookies on the team this season and a few more next.  They may not be a contending team for awhile, but they will be young and developing.  I also think that Green is the right coach for a young developing team and will get the most out of his players.

At this point the only reason to look back is to learn to recognize and learn from past mistakes, unfortunately those mistakes are not unique, if fact they are quite common and repeated across the NHL, the successful experiments are there to learn from as well but new management personnel seem to believe they can build a better mouse trap and fail.

 

How long the team is in rebuild will be ultimately be decided by looking back and history, I am sure each new year Edmonton didn't start off thinking the team was going to have to start over again, but they did get caught in mediocrity because of blown draft picks. If they hadn't won the McDavid sweepstakes they would still have got a very good player, probably would not have traded Hall and not signed Lucic apart from guessing those things, what Chiarelli would have done that was different would still have left them better than before that draft. They still had a lot of good players.

 

Rebuilding vs re-tooling, rebuilding teams usually don't trade away draft picks and sign senior players o multimillion dollar long term contracts. Not moving vets off the team for picks/prospects is not a sign of rebuilding, the President of the team even stated they were not rebuilding so many times it became a media circus. Vrbata and Hamhuis, Vrbata admitted he had a very short list, a list given him by Benning/Linden, Hamhuis, there were two offers for him, he wasn't told until a week before and he wanted to look at the area for his family to live, he was told when Chicago came knocking by they moved on after 2 days, then Dallas called and there was only 1 day left before the TDL, they also moved on to #2 on their list.

So a rebuilding Canucks didn't trade for any picks and let 4 or 5 vet players go for nothing. Now you mention the clause contracts, but everyone of Gilis's clause contract players agreed to move, it was Benning/Linden clause contracts that refused.

 

Prospects, how long does a team hold on to a prospect before he is released? At a guess it would be after 4 years, that is the age area that the Nucks are trading picks for, the age other teams bail on those players, Vey, Motte, Leipsic, Sven, Granlund,...were all around 21 to 23 yrs old when their parent teams gave up on them. But apart from that there is the numbers game, there are only so many contracts available so there is some dropped off just because of the contract numbers, so again there is a time limit.

 

I don't believe I am the only person that believes the rebuild starts now, 3 draft picks in 4 years is not rebuilding, 4 if you count Tryamkin and McCann and their short time here.

 

Whatever my thoughts, my education in hockey started in the 60's but that means dog squat, this is a forum and it is entertainment, jus like the Canucks now, a single nights entertainment, that is what they are selling to try to fill the seats because the hard core educated fans have stopped buying season tickets to see a perennial 29th placed team.

 

I am not disagreeing with you, we all have our thoughts, but for the most part opinions are starting to align that this team needs draft picks and will need another two or three years to start to become consistently good, IF this management group doesn't PANIC to try to save their jobs. That is a possibility, Benning does have a 2 year contract with an option, that is a little bit like a gun to his head to improve and fill the arena or else, maybe Linden as well, how many years does he have left, likely the same term as Benning.

[aliboy]

They just said on TSN that the 7th overall pick is in play, so JB may be going after a D-man.

[Gator]

On 6/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, vannuck59 said:

This years roster

 Leipsic -  Horvat  - Boeser

Erksson - Nash -  Pettersson

Boucher -Veleno - Virtanen

Labate  - Beagle  - Archibald 

 

Edler       -        Stecher

Del Zotto  -      C. Folin

J. Moore   -     G. Peteryn 

 

Demko   -    Nilsson

 

Extras -  Gagner, E. Bouchard, McEneny

At least we'd get 4th OA lol

[TheGuardian_]

20 hours ago, aliboy said:

They just said on TSN that the 7th overall pick is in play, so JB may be going after a D-man.

Let's rebuild by trading away top draft picks, avoid the magnifying glass of past draft failures. Look at the drafts since they got here and compare to many other teams, deplorable for a supposed drafting "guru". Getting Boeser at 26, where he was ranked was not genius, it was dumb luck that so many errored on ranking him. now if Boeser was ranked 45 or much a later than 26th, then it would be genius, but he was just BPA at # 25/26.

 

This management group does not want the scrutiny of another Virtanen or Juolevi selections, IMO they would trade the pick for shat and try to sell it as "he is a really gud player for us", them, management, not the team.

Carolina want to shed Hanifin for a reason, it isn't like they are loaded up with top 4 dmen, Buffalo wants to get rid of O'Rielly's salary and attitude. For the Canucks to come out winners in trade of their #1 pick, it would have to be for a player(s) not being shopped around the league, a top end young player in the league already, not too many teams in that category.

[IBatch]

On 2018-06-06 at 1:47 AM, janisahockeynut said:

The difference from Edmonton and Arizona is we have cap space.......so..........

Let's not get too impatient and hold onto that space, until we can spend it on a good Dmen or a Good Center when we are ready, not before

The one thing that really pissed me off last few seasons was filling our roster with veterans, when we should have been placing low

Miller and Eriksson come to mind, first off, but Vanek, Gagner, MDZ, Nilsson were all intended to help us, "while the Sedin's were here

What a bunch of bunk!

 

The Sedin's were declining, and the world wanted to win for them..............how well did that serve us?

Same as this year winning all the games at the end of the year? How did that serve us?

Well, we now have a great bunch of young players, but we are not finished our rebuild

First off, the ones we have must mature as hockey players. then we need to fill in those holes with strong, fast, smart, intense veteran UFA's

Which I don't have a problem with them doing, when the time is right.

But in the mean time, we need to move some of those that can be moved that will not be in our core in 3/4 years, and add more picks for this year.

 

Now, the reason, I believe we should be moving players that will not be in our core in 3/4 years, this year, is we want them to mature, within the

same time frame, as the other core players, or as near as possible.

 

I am not going to name the players we should move because that always starts an argument on here, but

We need to move 3 or 4 of them this year for picks......whether they be, 1st's or 2nd's, either works in a deep draft

Then stay down for the year after that and take our 2019 1st and 2nd as well..........That gives them 2 and 3 years after being picked to mature

Like I said 3/4 years to maturity............and most likely competing.

 

So, any cap space we could use must be clear by then, to A - pay our players, and to B - pick up a couple of good UFA's to fill in the holes

But again that should be at a later time, when they can be useful and help us compete for a top 10 spot

 

Love ya all, but man there has been some people here with a lack of focus

I could keep on going, but I am going to shut up!

"KIRK OUT!"

 

The past few years it would have been great if Gillis left us some prospects that would be developed and ready to play, or Benning picks (Juolevi and Pettersson, Demko) were NHL ready, but nobody aside from Boeser and Tryampkin were at the start of last season and Boeser wasn't a sure thing either.  Gagne, MDZ, and even LE are just place holders, we didn't have any rookies ready to play yet.

Never had an issue with Miller, Markstrom wasn't ready and perhaps never really will be for the number one spot, and obviously we didn't have a rookie goalie until maybe this year.

 

We were so screwed by the wasteland of a pool we had for so long, a declining and all but decimated core.  The only signing I've ever had issue with is LE which should be a warning to those whom wish to weaponize our cap for a 2nd rounder and another albotross.

 

I agree we should add picks, but only if it's possible to ice an NHL team to support Boeser,Horvat, Pettersson and even Markstrom/Demko and not create an Oiler situation where guys are rushed (Yakupov) and played before the are ready.  Gaudette didn't look too bad, but didn't light it up either, I have high hopes for Dahlen, maybe he's ready and of course there is Pettersson but he looks so frail I'm not sure he won't be injured half way through the year, id certainly understand if the team decides he needs another year to build his body. 

 

Ive seen posts where half the team is proposed to be traded for picks, that's not focus, that's insanity.  Sure we could get a second for Bear, for the 35% chance at getting a Bear back, in three years....yes this is a better than average draft, but it's not as good as 2015  or 2016.  

 

I have no problem with Benning signing UFAs for three year deals, the moneys already there for Pettersson and Boeser, even with the other RFAs as nobody is up for a significant raise,  and in three years a pile of money will come available again for whomever is in the system now or the future (Sutter, Edler, LE all done)  I'd sign Vanek and Green, or just rinse and repeat what we did last year, keep two spots open in the top nine for rookies.  Then hopefully next TDL we can actually get something in return.

 

Also its not hard to make room for players if they are ready either,  my suspicion is it won't be this year but the following one  that we see three or four fuys make the transition... Spock Out.

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Let's rebuild by trading away top draft picks, avoid the magnifying glass of past draft failures. Look at the drafts since they got here and compare to many other teams, deplorable for a supposed drafting "guru". Getting Boeser at 26, where he was ranked was not genius, it was dumb luck that so many errored on ranking him. now if Boeser was ranked 45 or much a later than 26th, then it would be genius, but he was just BPA at # 25/26.

 

This management group does not want the scrutiny of another Virtanen or Juolevi selections, IMO they would trade the pick for shat and try to sell it as "he is a really gud player for us", them, management, not the team.

Carolina want to shed Hanifin for a reason, it isn't like they are loaded up with top 4 dmen, Buffalo wants to get rid of O'Rielly's salary and attitude. For the Canucks to come out winners in trade of their #1 pick, it would have to be for a player(s) not being shopped around the league, a top end young player in the league already, not too many teams in that category.

Pettersson by all appearances looks like a great pick, and he was listed closer to ten then five (9 by THN BPA) .... Gaudette, Tryamkin look to be solid NHLers, Demko maybe too.  Remember how much noise the CDC made when Horvat was selected instead of Nitchwhatever, I know it was Gillis pick, it's still early to call JV and especially Juolevi who hasn't even played yet, a bust.  If  Bennings convinced a guy at 10 is as good or better than the guys 6-8, and gets a high second for moving three spots I will probably throw the remote like I wanted to when we passed on MT.  Then i will research the crap out of Ty Smith or whomever he picks then the same for the second (there is some very strong choices in the thirties too) and maybe calm down a bit.   Maybe he's got solid intel that the guy he wants at 7 will still be there.  But I hope he keeps his pick!!'

[vannuck59]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 12:58 PM, TheGuardian_ said:

Let's rebuild by trading away top draft picks, avoid the magnifying glass of past draft failures. Look at the drafts since they got here and compare to many other teams, deplorable for a supposed drafting "guru". Getting Boeser at 26, where he was ranked was not genius, it was dumb luck that so many errored on ranking him. now if Boeser was ranked 45 or much a later than 26th, then it would be genius, but he was just BPA at # 25/26.

 

This management group does not want the scrutiny of another Virtanen or Juolevi selections, IMO they would trade the pick for shat and try to sell it as "he is a really gud player for us", them, management, not the team.

Carolina want to shed Hanifin for a reason, it isn't like they are loaded up with top 4 dmen, Buffalo wants to get rid of O'Rielly's salary and attitude. For the Canucks to come out winners in trade of their #1 pick, it would have to be for a player(s) not being shopped around the league, a top end young player in the league already, not too many teams in that category.

I agree with your statement , You should be acquiring draft picks and not shopping them . Like I said before this is a very deep draft . If Benning trades our 7 th overall  he should be fired, and Lindon also for letting him.

[vannuck59]

we need another draft pick in the 8 to 12 spot