Rob_Zepp Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, D-Money said: So...would you trade any of these for the players you identified? Michael Dipietro Jack Rathbone William Lockwood Nikita Tryamkin's rights Because that is what Benning has been getting with 3rd/4th round picks. Heck, let's say it's just a 5th/6th, would you trade Palmu? Gaudette? Jasek? Not every pick pans out, but the odds drop dramatically when you trade them away. Of course you would have to consider exactly those names as that is the whole risk-reward thing, the other team has to see a potential reward too for their risk. I don't propose any precise trade - just saying that there are so many examples of change of scenery players that this should be a considered strategy. Yes, you are more than right, the odds of a pick panning out for you once you trade them away is not high - in fact I think it is zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedinery33 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said: Those are the type of risk-reward moves that I think the Canucks should evaluate - yup. Like you, I am on fence about Dal Colle (perhaps you are not even on fence) but he is so talented and one has to wonder if he can be "fixed". I don't question his ability, I question his drive. I seen a few Bridgeport games and he just seemed disinterested. If JB can pull a couple more trade like 2nd for Baertschi, or a whats his name for Granlund, Pedan for Pouliot ect. I'd be happy with that. They don't all have to be rock stars, but if they can slot in and fill a roll, with ability to move up and down the line up during injuries fantastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, Sedinery33 said: I don't question his ability, I question his drive. I seen a few Bridgeport games and he just seemed disinterested. If JB can pull a couple more trade like 2nd for Baertschi, or a whats his name for Granlund, Pedan for Pouliot ect. I'd be happy with that. They don't all have to be rock stars, but if they can slot in and fill a roll, with ability to move up and down the line up during injuries fantastic! I can't say I have seen MDC play since junior so with that update, I have lost some of the interest for sure. Only question - could a change of scenery help? Does he potentially feel trapped with too much in front of him on a stacked forward situation in NYI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedinery33 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: I can't say I have seen MDC play since junior so with that update, I have lost some of the interest for sure. Only question - could a change of scenery help? Does he potentially feel trapped with too much in front of him on a stacked forward situation in NYI? From the sounds of things he has skating issues holding him back, along with a lack of players capable of helping him down in Bridgeport. Dal Colle would need a great playmaker to help him make the next level. - Dopper Prospects report from June 2018 Guess we kind of lucked out he wasn't there when we drafted Virtanen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Sedinery33 said: From the sounds of things he has skating issues holding him back, along with a lack of players capable of helping him down in Bridgeport. Dal Colle would need a great playmaker to help him make the next level. - Dopper Prospects report from June 2018 Guess we kind of lucked out he wasn't there when we drafted Virtanen They, with Ritchie, were all ranked about the same as the class of that year for power forwards. It came down to individual attributes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 9 hours ago, N7Nucks said: Heiskanen is a lefty is he not? A lefty yes, but plays right side. Something I am normally against. Many have issues getting to pucks & making plays on the boards with their backhand in the defensive zone. And its not just harder to make plays on your back hand, you either have to have an incredible ability to turn your neck like an owl to see the entire ice. Or you make more plays blind. It leads to mistakes. That's the position you end up in, which is most difficult for many defenders to deal with on their off side... But Heskainen is incredibly agile. He not only gets to pucks, but manoeuvres & dekes before guys get on him, onto his forehand and makes plays or heads up ice. 7 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said: Honka is another good one to pursue. Where does Petan fit? Take Goldys wing, play C on a depth scoring line (not a bad thing?)??? Is he a Tyler Johnson. hell a Marty St Louis?? 5 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said: The trouble is we are already logjammed a bit especially at forward. Trading assets for these guys doesnt work unless we are either trading from our logjam to do it or moving sone of our own players out for other picks, etc. If there is an opportunity to improve a bit on the guys we have, then look at it. If it means we will be losing someone on waivers tgen its not worth it. Realistically we need top end talent at firward and D so we should be shooting for a hone run or two. We're not really log jammed. Especially at LW. We have 5 guys who have proven they can compete for 3rd or 4th line roles. And not necessarily compete as proven NHL'ers. And one LW that has functionally dabbled in a top 6 role, Baer. But not impressed, with 2knd line numbers, at best, in a top line role. We enter the season therefore with no truly proven top 6 LW or blue chip guy to take it on. In the end we will put guys that are struggling for press box & 4th line roles on waivers. The risk is not that great. And would be offset by the upgrade? Measure that against acquiring talent that might play middle 6, or top 6 for us. Leipsic for example is probably our 1 or 2LW right now, Baer the other? Goldy our 3LW. I'm not happy with that, full stop! I prefer to add competition, have Petan thrown into that conversation than rely on that depth chart! Or Dahlen being thrown in. And I prefer Petan to overpaying a UFA. But it depends who is available. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said: A lefty yes, but plays right side. Something I am normally against. Many have issues getting to pucks & making plays on the boards with their backhand in the defensive zone. And its not just harder to make plays on your back hand, you either have to have an incredible ability to turn your neck like an owl to see the entire ice. Or you make more plays blind. It leads to mistakes. That's the position you end up in, which is most difficult for many defenders to deal with on their off side... But Heskainen is incredibly agile. He not only gets to pucks, but manoeuvres & dekes before guys get on him, onto his forehand and makes plays or heads up ice. Where does Petan fit? Take Goldys wing, play C on a depth scoring line (not a bad thing?)??? Is he a Tyler Johnson. hell a Marty St Louis?? We're not really log jammed. Especially at LW. We have 5 guys who have proven they can compete for 3rd or 4th line roles. And not necessarily compete as proven NHL'ers. And one LW that has functionally dabbled in a top 6 role, Baer. But not impressed, with 2knd line numbers, at best, in a top line role. We enter the season therefore with no truly proven top 6 LW or blue chip guy to take it on. In the end we will put guys that are struggling for press box & 4th line roles on waivers. The risk is not that great. And would be offset by the upgrade? Measure that against acquiring talent that might play middle 6, or top 6 for us. Leipsic for example is probably our 1 or 2LW right now, Baer the other? Goldy our 3LW. I'm not happy with that, full stop! I prefer to add competition, have Petan thrown into that conversation than rely on that depth chart! Or Dahlen being thrown in. And I prefer Petan to overpaying a UFA. But it depends who is available. Just my opinion. I think you may have missed my point a bit. Fresh start guy has to offset both the cost of acquiring him and the potential loss on waivers to be worth it. Plus the risk that if the player himself doesnt become what you hope that those guys are usually waiver eligible too so could be lost or forced to stay on the roster at the expense of a more helpful player. Lots of risk in trying this route as we have previously seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 There is also the fact that Bennings history with this approach has not exactly inspired a lot of confidence he can identify players that will break out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 23 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Where does Petan fit? Take Goldys wing, play C on a depth scoring line (not a bad thing?)??? Is he a Tyler Johnson. hell a Marty St Louis?? Depth C that has insane playmaking skills. He could make a powerplay hum. Before my time but people who are older I know that know Canucks say he has a middle ceiling to be a "Cliff Ronning" type - just a bit taller and faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Ok @Rob_Zepp Always willing to hear different opinions. Tell me which stalled prospects you think Benning has acquired that have turned into star level players through the change of scenery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 25 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: I think you may have missed my point a bit. Fresh start guy has to offset both the cost of acquiring him and the potential loss on waivers to be worth it. Plus the risk that if the player himself doesnt become what you hope that those guys are usually waiver eligible too so could be lost or forced to stay on the roster at the expense of a more helpful player. Lots of risk in trying this route as we have previously seen. Yes its' really about the acquisition cost. If JB believes he can get better, more reliable upside than our odds with whatever cost? Guys who teams will lose anyway, see Pouliot, come at a low cost. Its a cost so you don't have to rely being awarded them on waivers. The waivers at our end has zero influence to me. I did not miss any point. Losing Boucher, who we claimed on waivers by memory, is the most likely outcome. I have done the #'s 6 times from Sunday. Guys like Dahlen, more notably Pettersson & Gaudette can all start in the minors if, say Goldobin, outplays them. Or be papered down, brought back up as inevitably one, usually two guys have to be placed on the main roster. But actually are injured, get placed on IR and you call back up your rookie. Who would still play most of the year in the NHL if papered down, or played a few games in Utica. Guys like Leipsic, Motte (believe Motte can also start the year in minors, 1 more game to pass the requires waivers threshold) only have to be exposed if we add several bodies. And we don't start bigger name prospects in the minors. And my own built in solution, is waive a Gagner, if all 5 or 6 young guys (Goldobin, Leipsic, Motte, Pettersson, Petan, Gaudette) emphatically win roster spots. Which is unlikely anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 9 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: Ok @Rob_Zepp Always willing to hear different opinions. Tell me which stalled prospects you think Benning has acquired that have turned into star level players through the change of scenery? I don't have any names as it hasn't happened. What I said is it happens all the time in the NHL and it is a strategy Canucks should consider and then I offered three names that intrigued me. Your GM has done well with Baer and Granlund...Pouliot the jury is out but sill all three deals got far more back than gave up. Leipsic looks like it may work out in Vancouver's favour too. Who knows if Vey could have worked out....what happened in his personal life clearly made everything else moot and the poor guy had to essentially leave the continent. Motte due to his speed and grit intrigues me. None are "stars" and no one claimed there were but NHL is full of "reclamation" projects that did indeed become stars and I think at least one of the three names I put forth may surprise a lot of people but it may take a jersey/city change. Not sure how that is a "different" opinion. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said: I don't have any names as it hasn't happened. What I said is it happens all the time in the NHL and it is a strategy Canucks should consider and then I offered three names that intrigued me. Your GM has done well with Baer and Granlund...Pouliot the jury is out but sill all three deals got far more back than gave up. Leipsic looks like it may work out in Vancouver's favour too. Who knows if Vey could have worked out....what happened in his personal life clearly made everything else moot and the poor guy had to essentially leave the continent. Motte due to his speed and grit intrigues me. None are "stars" and no one claimed there were but NHL is full of "reclamation" projects that did indeed become stars and I think at least one of the three names I put forth may surprise a lot of people but it may take a jersey/city change. Not sure how that is a "different" opinion. (?) Personally, I think a rebuilding team should keep their picks rather than trade them for 22 year old stalled prospects. I don’t think any of JB’s trades for stalled prospects has been a good move. Draft picks are too valuable in today’s NHL to be giving up for guys like Baer, Vey, and Pedan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: I don't have any names as it hasn't happened. What I said is it happens all the time in the NHL and it is a strategy Canucks should consider and then I offered three names that intrigued me. Your GM has done well with Baer and Granlund...Pouliot the jury is out but sill all three deals got far more back than gave up. Leipsic looks like it may work out in Vancouver's favour too. Who knows if Vey could have worked out....what happened in his personal life clearly made everything else moot and the poor guy had to essentially leave the continent. Motte due to his speed and grit intrigues me. None are "stars" and no one claimed there were but NHL is full of "reclamation" projects that did indeed become stars and I think at least one of the three names I put forth may surprise a lot of people but it may take a jersey/city change. Not sure how that is a "different" opinion. (?) My point isBenning has tried this strategy forseveral years alteady, its not something new tohim or the canucks. It just hasnt produced much of value. The canucks need top end skill not more tweeners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Ward Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 10 minutes ago, Alflives said: Personally, I think a rebuilding team should keep their picks rather than trade them for 22 year old stalled prospects. I don’t think any of JB’s trades for stalled prospects has been a good move. Draft picks are too valuable in today’s NHL to be giving up for guys like Baer, Vey, and Pedan. In general I agree, but I also think that if you look at what we have gotten in the lower rounds for this team over the last 10 years, it is pretty few and far between. I realize everybody is excited about last years crop, as am I, but none have played in the nhl yet. The percentage of reclamation projects that have worked versus the percentage of draft picks that have become regulars in the nhl is much greater. We have done Pouliot, Leipsic, Vey, Baertschi, Granlund, Clendenning and that is about 50-50. Draft picks, particularly after the 1st round are more like 10-20%. So I think that if a team really believes in a guy who has already become a pro, you don't have to wait 2-3 years and they think he has a skill package they need, it can be a good risk to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 42 minutes ago, Dixon Ward said: In general I agree, but I also think that if you look at what we have gotten in the lower rounds for this team over the last 10 years, it is pretty few and far between. I realize everybody is excited about last years crop, as am I, but none have played in the nhl yet. The percentage of reclamation projects that have worked versus the percentage of draft picks that have become regulars in the nhl is much greater. We have done Pouliot, Leipsic, Vey, Baertschi, Granlund, Clendenning and that is about 50-50. Draft picks, particularly after the 1st round are more like 10-20%. So I think that if a team really believes in a guy who has already become a pro, you don't have to wait 2-3 years and they think he has a skill package they need, it can be a good risk to take. All true, but I just don’t see any of these stalled guys we acquired being integral to winning a Cup. However, any one of the picks we gave up to get these guys at least had a chance to become a difference maker, even if only a small one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleboy Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 They have been doing this all along. It was their first shot at retooling. Baer , Granlund , Leipsic and Pouliot. As long as we don't use draft picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 21 minutes ago, appleboy said: They have been doing this all along. It was their first shot at retooling. Baer , Granlund , Leipsic and Pouliot. As long as we don't use draft picks. Vey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, N7Nucks said: Vey That remains and overused and unfair example only as the Canucks (and Vey himself) had no clue his personal life was about to fall apart after the trade. He has been a shadow of the promising CHL player he was since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: That remains and overused and unfair example only as the Canucks (and Vey himself) had no clue his personal life was about to fall apart after the trade. He has been a shadow of the promising CHL player he was since then. Wasn't saying anything negative, just that he was an example of us grabbing other teams unwanted/stalled young guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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