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34 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

The bolded simply weren't high ceiling/likely NHL players to begin with? That's not a developmental failure, that's reality.

 

Virtanen has no control over where he was picked and is largely irrelevant to his development. And FWIW, historic 6th overalls are not remotely a guarantee of a top player. A, defensively sound, middle 6 winger with elite skating/shot/physicality is historically a win in that spot. Does he still need to work on his consistency? Absoultely.

 

 

No...but I'm pretty sure Canuck fans were hoping for a Tkachuk or Monahan type of a player when it looks like they got a Brett Connolly/Scottie Upshall type of player

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2 minutes ago, GritGrinder said:

No...but I'm pretty sure Canuck fans were hoping for a Tkachuk or Monahan type of a player when it looks like they got a Brett Connolly/Scottie Upshall type of player

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Unfortunately, reality frequently plays a role in the outcome of whatever hopes people might have ;) 

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6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Unfortunately, reality frequently plays a role in the outcome of whatever hopes people might have ;) 

Yes its amazing how reality can move the goalposts of expectations. Had you said to Canuck fans on draft day 2014 after JV was drafted that he'll become the next Brett Connolly or Scottie Upshall you would have been flamed and told you didn't know anything about hockey, and here we are almost 5 years later and that's the road JV seems to be on and most fans couldn't be more pleased with his "progress".

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4 minutes ago, GritGrinder said:

Yes its amazing how reality can move the goalposts of expectations. Had you said to Canuck fans on draft day 2014 after JV was drafted that he'll become the next Brett Connolly or Scottie Upshall you would have been flamed and told you didn't know anything about hockey, and here we are almost 5 years later and that's the road JV seems to be on and most fans couldn't be more pleased with his "progress".

To be fair, it's arguable Virtanen (while certainly not at the Monahan level) is arguably a better player than Upshall/Connolly were at the same age. He's also still developing (they aren't).

 

He's his own player and his ceiling is far from written in stone yet.

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18 minutes ago, aGENT said:

To be fair, it's arguable Virtanen (while certainly not at the Monahan level) is arguably a better player than Upshall/Connolly were at the same age. He's also still developing (they aren't).

 

He's his own player and his ceiling is far from written in stone yet.

Its not really that arguable. JV and BC have had almost identical starts to their careers, Upshall got off to a much better start but was a bit older. JV could have a higher ceiling or he could be what you see is what you get, its really 50/50 at this point.

 

JV--187gp 28-24-52 -16

BC--187gp 23-26-49 -11

SU--187gp 40-48-88 +22

 

 

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29 minutes ago, aGENT said:

To be fair, it's arguable Virtanen (while certainly not at the Monahan level) is arguably a better player than Upshall/Connolly were at the same age. He's also still developing (they aren't).

 

He's his own player and his ceiling is far from written in stone yet.

Especially considering power forwards take longer to develop. Virtanen has taken some big strides this year and will continue to do so. Plus when one does inevitably make the playoffs, and the speed and physicality pick up, we will really be happy to have Virtanen on our wing.

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2 minutes ago, GritGrinder said:

Its not really that arguable. JV and BC have had almost identical starts to their careers, Upshall got off to a much better start but was a bit older. JV could have a higher ceiling or he could be what you see is what you get, its really 50/50 at this point.

 

JV--187gp 28-24-52 -16

BC--187gp 23-26-49 -11

SU--187gp 40-48-88 +22

 

 

One, I'm not talking about simply stat lines. Two I'm talking about where he is now in his D+4 year and his present trajectory. 

 

I'd take D+4 Virtanen over D+4 Connolly or Upshall any day.

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1 hour ago, Dats hockey said:

Ok but think of it like this Utica hasn’t developed us anything special, Virtanen has to work on conditioning IQ and Compete there.

 

Some failures they have had though, Archie despite his offensive side disappearing in the NHL his physical side would to, Gaunce his offensive side became not existent in the NHL hunter shinkuarik( can’t remember how to spell his name) have 1 good half season in Utica but was a straight failure all together, how long was pedan down there so we even talk about this? List go on and on. I’m just saying Utica hasn’t had much success with much and sure I do think Virt is some ways is a success he’s a very inconsistent 2nd line winger but a good 3rd line winger with still room to go but he was a 6th overall pick he was picked there because he should have already had some of these things right?

 

Edit: long story short do you think Utica is doing a goos job developing our guys? 

Yes I do, you do not as you are focusing on the wrong things in my mind.   If you look at the current crop of prospects in Utica, and some of the graduates (Demko likely the next), you see something different.   Manitoba is easier to cite as it takes time to evaluate that value but Kesler grew leaps and bounds in the AHL as did CS (who became Bo Horvat).   Gaunce showed more offensive flair at the start of this season but where you need to track/evaluate is players like Dahlen, Gadj, Lind, Audette, Juolevi, McK, and several other notables.   Next wave will include the TU's of the world - and AHL/Utica will be a great place.   Their GM/Coach are extremely well-respected in the hockey world.

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By the time the likes of Lind, Gadjoich, Jasek et all have become Archibald clones there'll be yet another bunch of prospect to distract from their lack of success. It diverts the fan base but rarely produces quality players, if indeed any.

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000392019.html

 

From the current roster I just don't see any significant parts from the farm.  I don't consider Virtanen time in Utica as a year of enlightenment …. to me he returned pretty much the way he left. His following year in Vcr was forgettable and it's only now that he's showing the least glimmer of hope ( he's 22 )

Other that have had a cup of coffee in Utica can hardly be considered graduates of the Utica system, but transients passing through. They certainly haven't been able to get Boucher over the hump is his time. They ( Vcr ) seem unwilling to submit other Utica players to a fire test. As of now I'd say Gaudette is the best candidate who's in a holding pattern in Utica primarily because of roster numbers in Vcr. 

 

I'd really really like to shown to be wrong and see a flood of Utica players knocking down the door to Vcr, but it hasn't happened in the past and I have doubts about the future. Madden is thankfully in the best place he can be for his devlopment

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4 hours ago, Dats hockey said:

Then what is a developmental failure... you are picking raw unrefined talent most drafts and it upto your management to develope it. Utica failed to set these guys up to make it to the NHL.

 

Irrelevant? No there were reason why he was such a high pick and it wasn’t to become a bottom 6 bang em up forward at the time, I agree it’s irrelevant now, not at the time but I’m still alright with what he’s turned into you can’t bang them out of the park every pick, but saying its completely irrelevant is putting some kind of blinders on 

Personally, I think Jake is one the teams top 3-4 most effective fwds.  He might not be scoring a ton, but man, is he great at other things.  

 

It really irks me that people put so much emphasis on scoring, when it's such a small part of the game.  The things jake does in a game are more valuable than what most of the pure offensive players offer.  Jake impacts the game in a big way, just maybe not the way that garners a lot of notice.

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2 minutes ago, stawns said:

Personally, I think Jake is one the teams top 3-4 most effective fwds.  He might not be scoring a ton, but man, is he great at other things.  

 

It really irks me that people put so much emphasis on scoring, when it's such a small part of the game.  The things jake does in a game are more valuable than what most of the pure offensive players offer.  Jake impacts the game in a big way, just maybe not the way that garners a lot of notice.

110% bang on.  I think JB is a friggin’ genious.  Who are the other two players drafted soon after Jake often used as comparables here?  Nylander and .ehlers, right?  JB foresaw these two as 60 Point, soft wingers who do nothing to help a team win a Cup, but who’s stats will have them both eat up huge cap dollars.  He knew that’s bad for our team, so he went with a guy who would score less, but contribute in other ways.  And these ways of contributing would cost less in cap, and be more valuable in the playoffs.  

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49 minutes ago, Alflives said:

110% bang on.  I think JB is a friggin’ genious.  Who are the other two players drafted soon after Jake often used as comparables here?  Nylander and .ehlers, right?  JB foresaw these two as 60 Point, soft wingers who do nothing to help a team win a Cup, but who’s stats will have them both eat up huge cap dollars.  He knew that’s bad for our team, so he went with a guy who would score less, but contribute in other ways.  And these ways of contributing would cost less in cap, and be more valuable in the playoffs.  

Back to the time line. Where will Jake be in another 2 - 3 seasons? As Stawns mentioned his physical game has really exploded. He has absolutely dominated a number of games this year. His defensive game has improved dramatically. Puck possession way better. Jake's game should thrive in CUP play.  

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12 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Back to the time line. Where will Jake be in another 2 - 3 seasons? As Stawns mentioned his physical game has really exploded. He has absolutely dominated a number of games this year. His defensive game has improved dramatically. Puck possession way better. Jake's game should thrive in CUP play.  

He may be one of the best takeaway players in the league.  That's my favourite part of his game.

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2 hours ago, Fred65 said:

By the time the likes of Lind, Gadjoich, Jasek et all have become Archibald clones there'll be yet another bunch of prospect to distract from their lack of success. It diverts the fan base but rarely produces quality players, if indeed any.

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000392019.html

 

From the current roster I just don't see any significant parts from the farm.  I don't consider Virtanen time in Utica as a year of enlightenment …. to me he returned pretty much the way he left. His following year in Vcr was forgettable and it's only now that he's showing the least glimmer of hope ( he's 22 )

Other that have had a cup of coffee in Utica can hardly be considered graduates of the Utica system, but transients passing through. They certainly haven't been able to get Boucher over the hump is his time. They ( Vcr ) seem unwilling to submit other Utica players to a fire test. As of now I'd say Gaudette is the best candidate who's in a holding pattern in Utica primarily because of roster numbers in Vcr. 

 

I'd really really like to shown to be wrong and see a flood of Utica players knocking down the door to Vcr, but it hasn't happened in the past and I have doubts about the future. Madden is thankfully in the best place he can be for his devlopment

Umm, wrong. He returned better. His conditioning improved a lot when he went down to Utica. The following year, which was last year, he showed lots of improvement, especially during the last few months, which he carried over into this season. So, yeah, actually he has improved, and it started down in Utica.

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20 minutes ago, The Great Canucks said:

Umm, wrong. He returned better. His conditioning improved a lot when he went down to Utica. The following year, which was last year, he showed lots of improvement, especially during the last few months, which he carried over into this season. So, yeah, actually he has improved, and it started down in Utica.

Was Green Jake's coach in Utica?  

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39 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Was Green Jake's coach in Utica?  

For a full season. Apparently he would call Jake in for training sessions after games and late at night to jump on the bike and ride. JV was given extra attention the way he is giving to Goldobin currently. Green is an exceptional coach, because he knows what it takes to get to the show.

 

How about that Tyler Madden though. I had to check to see which thread I was in. Madden has the added bonus of being the son of an NHL'r. I always thought those legacy players whose fathers played in the league, always have a leg up, because they are getting NHL training from an early age.

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5 minutes ago, canuckledraggin said:

For a full season. Apparently he would call Jake in for training sessions after games and late at night to jump on the bike and ride. JV was given extra attention the way he is giving to Goldobin currently. Green is an exceptional coach, because he knows what it takes to get to the show.

 

How about that Tyler Madden though. I had to check to see which thread I was in. Madden has the added bonus of being the son of an NHL'r. I always thought those legacy players whose fathers played in the league, always have a leg up, because they are getting NHL training from an early age.

Madden was a steal.  It’s like JB and his staff can find these super good players in later rounds.  It’s like turning over a rock, and finding a fifty dollar bill under it.  

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4 hours ago, The Great Canucks said:

Umm, wrong. He returned better. His conditioning improved a lot when he went down to Utica. The following year, which was last year, he showed lots of improvement, especially during the last few months, which he carried over into this season. So, yeah, actually he has improved, and it started down in Utica.

Every one has their own opinion, mine is what it is. Even now I see nothing remarkable. His Hockey IQ is average, he get's in the odd hit but not that he has  opponents quivering in their boots. Green doesn't see him as a top 6 forward, he get's the odd run in that role but not a lot comes from it. He is a+1 in his +/- which is good. He's 23 come next season. He has one more year on his contract and frankly unless he starts offering some game changing element to his game I can't see him getting a huge raise, and that after all is the yard stick of his worth. The salary he has now is less than Granlund and Schaller and he and his agent agreed to that figure, he might hit $2.5 mill ….might ! Agents, GM's and management crew are not as a rule that far off in values ( Ericksson aside :) ) Looks like Gadjovich is a slower model of the same qualities

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5 hours ago, Alflives said:

Madden was a steal.  It’s like JB and his staff can find these super good players in later rounds.  It’s like turning over a rock, and finding a fifty dollar bill under it.  

Exactly why it would be nice to gather more assets next draft. Use this as the final "tank:" year and then strive for the playoffs in the coming years. We have the potential to be a dominating team in the west in a couple years but we need a few more elite assets to push this team over the top. No point being mediocre like the Oilers when we can build to win. Trade the veterans this year and next and then slowly bring in elite prospects to fill their roles.

 

Edler should be traded the deadline if he could be talked into waiving. Then sign him in the offseason because he wants to be here. it can be his gift to the club. With regards to centres we have 3 I can see here for at least the next 2 years. Pettersson, Horvat, Beagle and then Gaudette should take the 4th spot. Madden is a few years off so his arrival should be able to coincide with Beagle leaving. Meaning Sutter should be traded as soon as his limited NTC kicks in. Ideally you go into next year fighting for a playoff spot with a forward lineup resembling this.

 

Goldy/Dahlen-Pettersson-Boeser

Baertschi-Horvat-Virtanen

Leivo-Gaudette-MacEwen

Eriksson-Beagle-Motte

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