Sign in to follow this  
Tomato Pajamas

Tyler Madden | C

Recommended Posts

Just now, Dats hockey said:

Ok but think of it like this Utica hasn’t developed us anything special, Virtanen has to work on conditioning IQ and Compete there.

 

Some failures they have had though, Archie despite his offensive side disappearing in the NHL his physical side would to, Gaunce his offensive side became not existent in the NHL hunter shinkuarik( can’t remember how to spell his name) have 1 good half season in Utica but was a straight failure all together, how long was pedan down there so we even talk about this? List go on and on. I’m just saying Utica hasn’t had much success with much and sure I do think Virt is some ways is a success he’s a very inconsistent 2nd line winger but a good 3rd line winger with still room to go but he was a 6th overall pick he was picked there because he should have already had some of these things right?

 

The bolded simply weren't high ceiling/likely NHL players to begin with? That's not a developmental failure, that's reality.

 

Virtanen has no control over where he was picked and is largely irrelevant to his development. And FWIW, historic 6th overalls are not remotely a guarantee of a top player. A, defensively sound, middle 6 winger with elite skating/shot/physicality is historically a win in that spot. Does he still need to work on his consistency? Absoultely.

 

 

  • Hydration 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Dats hockey said:

We’ll have to wait and see but I’ve watch a good chunk of game and the way to team runs they don’t seem to want people to improve on the offensive side of the game.

 

they let the vets run wild while all the young guys sit or play on line with less offensive upside.

Kids need to learn to be pros. No different than the treatment Goldobin is getting here.

 

Adapt or die.

 

And given there's a 5 vet roster limit in the AHL, that's not particularly true anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, aGENT said:

 

The bolded simply weren't high ceiling/likely NHL players to begin with? That's not a developmental failure, that's reality.

 

Virtanen has no control over where he was picked and is largely irrelevant to his development. And FWIW, historic 6th overalls are not remotely a guarantee of a top player. A, defensively sound, middle 6 winger with elite skating/shot/physicality is historically a win in that spot. Does he still need to work on his consistency? Absoultely.

 

 

Then what is a developmental failure... you are picking raw unrefined talent most drafts and it upto your management to develope it. Utica failed to set these guys up to make it to the NHL.

 

Irrelevant? No there were reason why he was such a high pick and it wasn’t to become a bottom 6 bang em up forward at the time, I agree it’s irrelevant now, not at the time but I’m still alright with what he’s turned into you can’t bang them out of the park every pick, but saying its completely irrelevant is putting some kind of blinders on 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Kids need to learn to be pros. No different than the treatment Goldobin is getting here.

 

Adapt or die.

 

And given there's a 5 vet roster limit in the AHL, that's not particularly true anyway.

On but in Utica, they should be give more of a leash more of a chance because those guys might be your future  people like Kero Archie was he was there getting put out there over everyone at important times doesn’t really help these prospects grow. I understand insulting prospect with vet but the deployment is poor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Dats hockey said:

Then what is a developmental failure...

 

Taking a likely NHL player like Virtanen or Demko or Gaudette etc and turning them from likely NHL'ers to busts.

 

5 minutes ago, Dats hockey said:

you are picking raw unrefined talent most drafts and it upto your management to develope it. Utica failed to set these guys up to make it to the NHL.

You're ignoring the % of players taken where they were that actually become 200+ game NHL'ers, let alone anything resembling star players. It's LOW. It's exceedingly normal for players like you posted to not make it at all or have entirely brief, and peripheral/depth NHL careers. This is not unique to the Canucks or Utica. Low probability players are low probability players. Gaunce is actually a decent/comparative success given his draft position and is still somewhat young/not necessarily done in the NHL at this point either.

 

10 minutes ago, Dats hockey said:

No there were reason why he was such a high pick and it wasn’t to become a bottom 6 bang em up forward at the time, I agree it’s irrelevant now, not at the time but I’m still alright with what he’s turned into you can’t bang them out of the park every pick, but saying its completely irrelevant is putting some kind of blinders on 

Who's says he's a 'bottom 6 bang em up forward'? I said:

 

18 minutes ago, aGENT said:

A, defensively sound, middle 6 winger with elite skating/shot/physicality is historically a win in that spot.

Again, that's a win. Could we have won 'more' if we'd picked an Ehlers or Pastrnak? Sure. But that's captain hindsight material (which especially with Pastnrak) I have little interest in and happens to every GM/team, every draft.

 

Now his development after being drafted has certainly been bumpy but again, THAT has nothing to do with where he was drafted and seems to be slowly working itself out regardless. Fortune favours the patient, not the panicky.

 

14 minutes ago, Dats hockey said:

On but in Utica, they should be give more of a leash more of a chance because those guys might be your future  people like Kero Archie was he was there getting put out there over everyone at important times doesn’t really help these prospects grow. I understand insulting prospect with vet but the deployment is poor

Sorry, but simply giving ice time to prospects who haven't earned it is exactly the opposite of development. Again, just like Goldy here or Virtanen previously etc, you get the ice time you earn. It's the only way to develop pros. Jasek = earning ice time. Gaudette = earning ice time etc, etc, etc....

 

Basically, you couldn't be more wrong. Sorry.

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

The bolded simply weren't high ceiling/likely NHL players to begin with? That's not a developmental failure, that's reality.

 

Virtanen has no control over where he was picked and is largely irrelevant to his development. And FWIW, historic 6th overalls are not remotely a guarantee of a top player. A, defensively sound, middle 6 winger with elite skating/shot/physicality is historically a win in that spot. Does he still need to work on his consistency? Absoultely.

 

 

No...but I'm pretty sure Canuck fans were hoping for a Tkachuk or Monahan type of a player when it looks like they got a Brett Connolly/Scottie Upshall type of player

Capture.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, GritGrinder said:

No...but I'm pretty sure Canuck fans were hoping for a Tkachuk or Monahan type of a player when it looks like they got a Brett Connolly/Scottie Upshall type of player

Capture.JPG

Unfortunately, reality frequently plays a role in the outcome of whatever hopes people might have ;) 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Unfortunately, reality frequently plays a role in the outcome of whatever hopes people might have ;) 

Yes its amazing how reality can move the goalposts of expectations. Had you said to Canuck fans on draft day 2014 after JV was drafted that he'll become the next Brett Connolly or Scottie Upshall you would have been flamed and told you didn't know anything about hockey, and here we are almost 5 years later and that's the road JV seems to be on and most fans couldn't be more pleased with his "progress".

Edited by GritGrinder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, GritGrinder said:

Yes its amazing how reality can move the goalposts of expectations. Had you said to Canuck fans on draft day 2014 after JV was drafted that he'll become the next Brett Connolly or Scottie Upshall you would have been flamed and told you didn't know anything about hockey, and here we are almost 5 years later and that's the road JV seems to be on and most fans couldn't be more pleased with his "progress".

To be fair, it's arguable Virtanen (while certainly not at the Monahan level) is arguably a better player than Upshall/Connolly were at the same age. He's also still developing (they aren't).

 

He's his own player and his ceiling is far from written in stone yet.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, aGENT said:

To be fair, it's arguable Virtanen (while certainly not at the Monahan level) is arguably a better player than Upshall/Connolly were at the same age. He's also still developing (they aren't).

 

He's his own player and his ceiling is far from written in stone yet.

Its not really that arguable. JV and BC have had almost identical starts to their careers, Upshall got off to a much better start but was a bit older. JV could have a higher ceiling or he could be what you see is what you get, its really 50/50 at this point.

 

JV--187gp 28-24-52 -16

BC--187gp 23-26-49 -11

SU--187gp 40-48-88 +22

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, aGENT said:

To be fair, it's arguable Virtanen (while certainly not at the Monahan level) is arguably a better player than Upshall/Connolly were at the same age. He's also still developing (they aren't).

 

He's his own player and his ceiling is far from written in stone yet.

Especially considering power forwards take longer to develop. Virtanen has taken some big strides this year and will continue to do so. Plus when one does inevitably make the playoffs, and the speed and physicality pick up, we will really be happy to have Virtanen on our wing.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, GritGrinder said:

Its not really that arguable. JV and BC have had almost identical starts to their careers, Upshall got off to a much better start but was a bit older. JV could have a higher ceiling or he could be what you see is what you get, its really 50/50 at this point.

 

JV--187gp 28-24-52 -16

BC--187gp 23-26-49 -11

SU--187gp 40-48-88 +22

 

 

One, I'm not talking about simply stat lines. Two I'm talking about where he is now in his D+4 year and his present trajectory. 

 

I'd take D+4 Virtanen over D+4 Connolly or Upshall any day.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dats hockey said:

Ok but think of it like this Utica hasn’t developed us anything special, Virtanen has to work on conditioning IQ and Compete there.

 

Some failures they have had though, Archie despite his offensive side disappearing in the NHL his physical side would to, Gaunce his offensive side became not existent in the NHL hunter shinkuarik( can’t remember how to spell his name) have 1 good half season in Utica but was a straight failure all together, how long was pedan down there so we even talk about this? List go on and on. I’m just saying Utica hasn’t had much success with much and sure I do think Virt is some ways is a success he’s a very inconsistent 2nd line winger but a good 3rd line winger with still room to go but he was a 6th overall pick he was picked there because he should have already had some of these things right?

 

Edit: long story short do you think Utica is doing a goos job developing our guys? 

Yes I do, you do not as you are focusing on the wrong things in my mind.   If you look at the current crop of prospects in Utica, and some of the graduates (Demko likely the next), you see something different.   Manitoba is easier to cite as it takes time to evaluate that value but Kesler grew leaps and bounds in the AHL as did CS (who became Bo Horvat).   Gaunce showed more offensive flair at the start of this season but where you need to track/evaluate is players like Dahlen, Gadj, Lind, Audette, Juolevi, McK, and several other notables.   Next wave will include the TU's of the world - and AHL/Utica will be a great place.   Their GM/Coach are extremely well-respected in the hockey world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the time the likes of Lind, Gadjoich, Jasek et all have become Archibald clones there'll be yet another bunch of prospect to distract from their lack of success. It diverts the fan base but rarely produces quality players, if indeed any.

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000392019.html

 

From the current roster I just don't see any significant parts from the farm.  I don't consider Virtanen time in Utica as a year of enlightenment …. to me he returned pretty much the way he left. His following year in Vcr was forgettable and it's only now that he's showing the least glimmer of hope ( he's 22 )

Other that have had a cup of coffee in Utica can hardly be considered graduates of the Utica system, but transients passing through. They certainly haven't been able to get Boucher over the hump is his time. They ( Vcr ) seem unwilling to submit other Utica players to a fire test. As of now I'd say Gaudette is the best candidate who's in a holding pattern in Utica primarily because of roster numbers in Vcr. 

 

I'd really really like to shown to be wrong and see a flood of Utica players knocking down the door to Vcr, but it hasn't happened in the past and I have doubts about the future. Madden is thankfully in the best place he can be for his devlopment

Edited by Fred65

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Dats hockey said:

Then what is a developmental failure... you are picking raw unrefined talent most drafts and it upto your management to develope it. Utica failed to set these guys up to make it to the NHL.

 

Irrelevant? No there were reason why he was such a high pick and it wasn’t to become a bottom 6 bang em up forward at the time, I agree it’s irrelevant now, not at the time but I’m still alright with what he’s turned into you can’t bang them out of the park every pick, but saying its completely irrelevant is putting some kind of blinders on 

Personally, I think Jake is one the teams top 3-4 most effective fwds.  He might not be scoring a ton, but man, is he great at other things.  

 

It really irks me that people put so much emphasis on scoring, when it's such a small part of the game.  The things jake does in a game are more valuable than what most of the pure offensive players offer.  Jake impacts the game in a big way, just maybe not the way that garners a lot of notice.

  • Hydration 1
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, stawns said:

Personally, I think Jake is one the teams top 3-4 most effective fwds.  He might not be scoring a ton, but man, is he great at other things.  

 

It really irks me that people put so much emphasis on scoring, when it's such a small part of the game.  The things jake does in a game are more valuable than what most of the pure offensive players offer.  Jake impacts the game in a big way, just maybe not the way that garners a lot of notice.

110% bang on.  I think JB is a friggin’ genious.  Who are the other two players drafted soon after Jake often used as comparables here?  Nylander and .ehlers, right?  JB foresaw these two as 60 Point, soft wingers who do nothing to help a team win a Cup, but who’s stats will have them both eat up huge cap dollars.  He knew that’s bad for our team, so he went with a guy who would score less, but contribute in other ways.  And these ways of contributing would cost less in cap, and be more valuable in the playoffs.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Alflives said:

110% bang on.  I think JB is a friggin’ genious.  Who are the other two players drafted soon after Jake often used as comparables here?  Nylander and .ehlers, right?  JB foresaw these two as 60 Point, soft wingers who do nothing to help a team win a Cup, but who’s stats will have them both eat up huge cap dollars.  He knew that’s bad for our team, so he went with a guy who would score less, but contribute in other ways.  And these ways of contributing would cost less in cap, and be more valuable in the playoffs.  

Back to the time line. Where will Jake be in another 2 - 3 seasons? As Stawns mentioned his physical game has really exploded. He has absolutely dominated a number of games this year. His defensive game has improved dramatically. Puck possession way better. Jake's game should thrive in CUP play.  

  • Like 1
  • Hydration 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Back to the time line. Where will Jake be in another 2 - 3 seasons? As Stawns mentioned his physical game has really exploded. He has absolutely dominated a number of games this year. His defensive game has improved dramatically. Puck possession way better. Jake's game should thrive in CUP play.  

He may be one of the best takeaway players in the league.  That's my favourite part of his game.

  • Like 1
  • Hydration 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Fred65 said:

By the time the likes of Lind, Gadjoich, Jasek et all have become Archibald clones there'll be yet another bunch of prospect to distract from their lack of success. It diverts the fan base but rarely produces quality players, if indeed any.

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000392019.html

 

From the current roster I just don't see any significant parts from the farm.  I don't consider Virtanen time in Utica as a year of enlightenment …. to me he returned pretty much the way he left. His following year in Vcr was forgettable and it's only now that he's showing the least glimmer of hope ( he's 22 )

Other that have had a cup of coffee in Utica can hardly be considered graduates of the Utica system, but transients passing through. They certainly haven't been able to get Boucher over the hump is his time. They ( Vcr ) seem unwilling to submit other Utica players to a fire test. As of now I'd say Gaudette is the best candidate who's in a holding pattern in Utica primarily because of roster numbers in Vcr. 

 

I'd really really like to shown to be wrong and see a flood of Utica players knocking down the door to Vcr, but it hasn't happened in the past and I have doubts about the future. Madden is thankfully in the best place he can be for his devlopment

Umm, wrong. He returned better. His conditioning improved a lot when he went down to Utica. The following year, which was last year, he showed lots of improvement, especially during the last few months, which he carried over into this season. So, yeah, actually he has improved, and it started down in Utica.

  • Hydration 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.