Sign in to follow this  
RUPERTKBD

The World Events Thread

Recommended Posts

https://www.foxnews.com/world/canada-snowboarders-lost-backcountry-burned-homework-survival-rescue

 

Quote

 

Two teenage snowboarders rescued Monday from the Candian backcountry had burned their homework to stay warm through the night after getting lost in poor weather conditions, officials said.

The boys, both aged 16, failed to return from their Sunday snowboarding outing at the Whitewater Ski Resort near Nelson in southern British Columbia, Nelson Search and Rescue said in a news release.

A 10-member ground team patrolled the roads overnight, but their efforts to attract the teens to safety by shining lights were unsuccessful, the release said. A helicopter was dispatched on Monday morning to help ground teams in the search along the backcountry.

Rescuers found the boys at 8:45 a.m. in the Qua Valley, just south of the resort, and flew them to safety.

Jim Kyle, manager of Nelson Search and Rescue, told the CBC that the boys were “extremely lucky” that the snowy weather conditions let up long enough to allow the use of a helicopter.

He added the lost teens “did all the right things" until they could be rescued, one of which was to build a fire to stay warm.

"One young person had homework in his backpack and that definitely helped keep the fire going," Kyle said.

Cpl. Jesse O’Donaghey, Royal Candian Mounted Police Southeast District Media Relations Officer, shared details on the boys’ overnight survival against the elements with The Nelson Daily.

"We are told that the pair had the wherewithal to construct a shelter and build a fire for warmth, and more importantly stay put and wait for help," O’Donaghey said.

Both boys appeared in good health at the time of the rescue Monday morning, according to officials.

 

The lengths some kids will go to, just to get out of doing homework....

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, AV's Coin said:

they must have had a lighter or matches... I wonder why?

I think the word "snowboarder" should be your first clue....

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AV's Coin said:

they must have had a lighter or matches... I wonder why?

You never never know when you might need to light up your........snowboard.

  • Hydration 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

You never never know when you might need to light up your........snowboard.

I'm thinking the homework weren't the only "papers" that went up in smoke....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I'm thinking the homework weren't the only "papers" that went up in smoke....

When I was a young guy we had these things called herbarium for biology class.

You were supposed to collect plants, flowers etc. 

So maybe these kids had some plants in their herbarium.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Facebook blames 'technical issue' for offensive Xi Jinping translation

image.png.60db5bf071f9065494a16513db4d5767.png

 

Facebook has apologised for translating Chinese President Xi Jinping's name from Burmese to English into an obscenity on its platform.

 

The translation gaffe came to light on the second day of Mr Xi's state visit to Myanmar.

 

On Saturday, Mr Xi met Myanmar's leader Aung San Suu Kyi to enhance bilateral relations.

 

In Burmese Facebook posts about their meeting, Mr Xi's name in English was translated erroneously.

 

His name appeared as "Mr $&!#hole" in Facebook posts shared on the official accounts of Ms Suu Kyi and her office.

 

 

image.png

 

Facebook addressed the mishap in a statement on Saturday, blaming a "technical issue" for the mistranslation.

"We fixed a technical issue that caused incorrect translations from Burmese to English on Facebook," said Andy Stone, a spokesman for Facebook. "This should not have happened and we are taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again."

 

Burmese is the official language in Myanmar, where it is spoken by two-thirds of the population.

 

Facebook admitted that Mr Xi's name had not been inputted into the database that translates Burmese into English.

 

In instances where data for a word is missing, Facebook's system guesses the translation, using similar syllables to replace it, the company said.

 

Translation tests of similar words that start with "xi" and "shi" in Burmese also produced "$&!#hole", it added.

 

"We are aware of an issue regarding Burmese to English translations on Facebook, and we're doing everything we can to fix this as quickly as possible," Mr Stone added in the statement.

 

As of Sunday morning, the English translation function did not appear to be working on the Burmese posts of official Facebook pages belonging to Ms Suu Kyi and the Myanmar government.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51166339

Edited by nuckin_futz
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't know where to put gun crap. This is more than annoying. Anyone can easily get a gun. Frickin' 15 years old, I miss the days of good scraps between children. Not this garbage. 

 

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/gun-at-b-c-mall-teen-struck-with-butt-of-firearm-in-langley-assault-rcmp-say-1.4779416

Gun at B.C. mall: Teen struck with butt of firearm in Langley assault, RCMP say

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

Don't know where to put gun crap. This is more than annoying. Anyone can easily get a gun. Frickin' 15 years old, I miss the days of good scraps between children. Not this garbage. 

 

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/gun-at-b-c-mall-teen-struck-with-butt-of-firearm-in-langley-assault-rcmp-say-1.4779416

Gun at B.C. mall: Teen struck with butt of firearm in Langley assault, RCMP say

I don't know why but the bolded line made me laugh.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some good news for a change:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/what-in-the-sam-hill-are-you-doing-out-here-snowmobiler-finds-family-of-5-stuck-in-frozen-wilderness/ar-BBZiLtK?li=AAggFp5

Quote

 

Phil Waldner wasn't expecting to come across a stranded family of five when he went out for a snowmobile ride in rural Manitoba after Christmas last month.

The Steinbach, Man., resident was on a trail near Whitemouth Lake, which is nearly 130 kilometres southeast of Winnipeg, when he saw car tracks, which seemed odd.

"It was about 15 or 16 kilometres in when I came upon the car that had broken through the ice, and in the car there was an elderly gentleman and two young children," Waldner said. 

"They were huddled up in blankets trying to keep warm and I asked them, 'What in the Sam Hill are you doing out here in the middle of nowhere?' and they said they're going to Toronto."

Waldner believes the children's parents, from Calgary, Alta., were using their cellphones for directions and were misguided. The area has poor cell reception, he said.

They apparently had tried everything to move the vehicle, but it wouldn't budge from the ice. They had been there for more than 24 hours, Waldner said.

As a last resort, they left the safety of the vehicle in sub-zero temperatures to go for help.

Waldner hopped back on his snowmobile to go look for them, and they're lucky he did.

"They were pretty much in a shutdown mode because they were so cold they couldn't walk anymore. It was -15 C. They were just wearing runners in six or seven inches of snow," he said.

Waldner took off some of his layers for the couple to wear. He took them to a nearby warming shelter maintained by South East Sno-Riders and built a fire before returning to the car to pick up the children and the grandfather.

Once the family was out of immediate danger, Waldner set off an SOS beacon, which the RCMP's Steinbach detachment received.

Mitch Gobeil, the president of the Sno-Riders, said he and another member of the group were called by RCMP to help them get to the remote spot where the family was stuck.

The group reached the warming shelter six hours after Waldner had taken them there.

'Extremely lucky'

Waldner, who is an avid outdoorsperson, said the family is "extremely lucky" to be alive, partly because of the temperature, but also because of the wildlife.

Bears are hibernating now, so they aren't a risk, "but this area is just overridden with wolves. This could have been extremely bad."

The area is quite remote, too, so it's not likely another person would have found them, or that the family would ever have reached a main road to call for help.

"It was another 50 or 60 kilometres out to any road," Waldner said. "You wouldn't have been found until spring maybe or something like that."

CBC News wasn't able to reach the family, but Waldner said they were grateful to be alive.

"The mother was crying on my shoulders because she was so happy."

 

Well done, Mr Waldner....that family was extremely lucky you came along.

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/24/2020 at 3:10 PM, RUPERTKBD said:

Some good news for a change:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/what-in-the-sam-hill-are-you-doing-out-here-snowmobiler-finds-family-of-5-stuck-in-frozen-wilderness/ar-BBZiLtK?li=AAggFp5

Well done, Mr Waldner....that family was extremely lucky you came along.

Yeah, no kidding!  Nice ending to the story, for sure.

 

  On top of a number of other things, people gotta learn not to depend on their phones when they are in the boonies. There's still a need for paper maps.

  • Hydration 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A reminder for all parents of small children- be extremely careful when going to a hospital with your young one: 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/an-er-doctor-was-charged-with-abusing-his-baby-but-15-experts-say-theres-no-proof/ar-BBZpdMw?ocid=spartandhp

 

"

MILWAUKEE — Dr. John Cox knew as soon as he heard the baby's cry that he had hurt his 1-month-old adopted daughter. He'd accidentally fallen asleep while cuddling the girl in bed early one morning last May, he said, and must have turned on top of her.

Cox, 39, a pediatric emergency room doctor at Children's Wisconsin hospital, sat up, panicked. His hands shook as he assessed the baby, he said, fearing that he'd smothered her. She wasn't in distress, but he said he could tell from the way she was moving her left arm that he might have broken her collarbone, a common injury in infants that typically heals on its own without medical treatment.

 

Cox called his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi, who was out of town with their two older children, and cried as he explained what had happened. Dobrozsi, a pediatric oncologist at the same hospital, said she told him to calm down and asked to video chat. The baby appeared fine to her, but to be safe, Dobrozsi suggested that Cox take her to see her pediatrician.

"That's what normal parents who aren't doctors would do," she told him.

What followed, according to more than 15 medical experts who later reviewed Cox's case, was a series of medical mistakes and misstatements by hospital staff members that has devastated Cox's family and derailed his career. A nurse practitioner on the hospital's child abuse team confused the baby's birthmarks for bruises, according to seven dermatologists who have reviewed the case. A child abuse pediatrician misinterpreted a crucial blood test, four hematologists later said. Then, two weeks after the incident, armed with those disputed medical reports, Child Protective Services took the child.

"In hindsight," Cox said in a recent interview, "taking her to our own hospital was the single most harmful decision that we made for our baby."

Children's Wisconsin officials declined interviews and did not respond to detailed written questions. In a joint statement with the Medical College of Wisconsin, which employs physicians who practice at the hospital, officials said they could not comment on a pending legal matter.

"Prevention of child abuse and neglect is core to Children's mission of caring for kids," the statement said. "We take seriously our responsibility to protect children and take action on their behalf."

Cox and Dobrozsi's story demonstrates the remarkable power granted to child abuse pediatricians, a small but growing subspecialty of doctors who work closely with child welfare agencies and whose work was the subject of an NBC News and Houston Chronicle investigation. Some of the doctors have at times overstated the certainty of their conclusions, the investigation found. Child welfare agencies and law enforcement officials often rely on their reports as the sole basis for removing children and filing criminal charges, sometimes in spite of contradictory opinions from other medical specialists.

Several Children's Wisconsin specialists were among those who reviewed Cox's case and wrote reports concluding that there was little reason to believe that he or anyone intentionally harmed his daughter, but that has not persuaded authorities in Wisconsin. Despite the growing stack of exculpatory medical reports and dozens of letters of support from fellow physicians who describe Cox as a caring and gentle father, the state placed the girl in foster care weeks after the incident, and now, eight months later — after another child abuse pediatrician reviewed the case on behalf of the state and agreed that the baby was abused — a prosecutor has filed felony abuse charges against Cox.

If convicted, he faces up to six years in prison.

Matthew Torbenson, the Milwaukee County deputy district attorney who brought the charges, declined to comment, citing a temporary gag order that was issued at his request on Thursday, just hours after an NBC News reporter contacted him requesting an interview.

Officials from the Wisconsin Department of Children and Families also declined to comment, citing a state law that prevents the agency from disclosing details about child welfare investigations. After receiving specific questions about the case from NBC News on Friday, the agency sent a reporter a cease and desist letter warning of possible criminal charges for publishing information contained in a child abuse investigation file.

This article is based on hours of interviews with Cox and Dobrozsi, conducted prior to the issuance of the gag order, as well as a review of records filed as part of the criminal case against Cox in Milwaukee County Circuit Court.

Share your story: Tell us your experience with doctors and the child welfare system

Dr. Eli Newberger, a former Harvard Medical School professor who established the child abuse program at Boston Children's Hospital 40 years ago, is among the physicians who've reviewed Cox's case and identified mistakes by hospital child abuse specialists.

"I am baffled by why there was such a rush to label and judge Dr. Cox as a child abuser," Newberger wrote.

Cox's ordeal has also opened a rift at Children's Wisconsin, where some treating physicians say they are so alarmed by what's happened to him that they now hesitate to refer injured children for evaluations by child abuse pediatricians, fearing that an abuse specialist might jump to the wrong conclusion and needlessly report parents to Child Protective Services.

A dozen members of the hospital's medical staff spoke to a reporter on the condition of anonymity, worried that they would be punished for discussing their concerns publicly.

Several emergency room doctors described an "out of control" child abuse team that is too quick to report minor injuries to authorities and that is too closely aligned with state child welfare investigators. Three of the doctors recalled being pressured by child abuse pediatricians to alter medical records, removing passages where they had initially reported having little or no concerns about abuse, though there's no evidence that happened in Cox's case.

"Essentially they've asked us to edit medical records to help the state prosecute parents," one doctor said. "It's completely inappropriate."

Five doctors told a reporter they're even afraid to bring their own children to their hospital after accidental injuries, fearing that a misdiagnosis or miscommunication might lead Child Protective Services to break their family apart.

"This is a disease in our hospital," one physician said. "The way John's case has been mishandled has opened all of our eyes to how big the problem is."

'This could spin out of control'

A month before the incident, Cox and Dobrozsi had rushed to the hospital, eager to meet their new baby girl.

The child's biological parents had chosen them a few weeks earlier from a list of adoptive families as the ones that they wanted to raise their soon-to-be-born daughter. Cox and Dobrozsi had previously adopted two boys, and they were excited to have their family grow again.

"From the moment that we sat in that room with them and they told us they chose us, she was our daughter and that was it," said Dobrozsi, comparing it to the way other mothers must feel when they learn they're pregnant. "All of the love you have for your child shows up in that moment."

They arrived minutes after the baby was born in early April and stayed with her overnight. They were there for her first bottle, her first diaper change, her first bath. They also gave her a name, but NBC News is not publishing it.

Dobrozsi's father videotaped the moment they brought the baby home to meet her brothers. Aiden, now 5, and Charlie — a 3-year-old who was born with spina bifida and who requires daily medical care from his parents — squirmed with excitement and begged to hold their new sister.

That first month together, Cox and Dobrozsi would each say later, was the happiest of their lives. "It felt like our family was complete," Cox said.

Dobrozsi hated to leave town on May 6, one month into her maternity leave, but she and her parents had been planning a trip to Washington, D.C., for months. They were taking the boys to an event hosted by the national Spina Bifida Association, to lobby Congress for improved health care funding. Dobrozsi said she had no concerns about leaving their newborn with her husband, a pediatric physician and experienced father.

On the evening of May 8, one of Cox's friends came over to watch the Milwaukee Bucks game. Cox held the baby the entire night, the friend recalled in an interview, doting on his new daughter. "It was almost annoying," he said. "Like, John, can you put her down so we can watch the game? You could tell he was genuinely in love."

The baby woke up in her bassinet at around 5 the next morning, as she did most days, Cox said. He picked up the baby and held her in bed until she fell back to sleep, he said. Then he made the mistake of getting himself more comfortable.

"We were chest to chest, cuddling," Cox said. "I distinctly remember thinking, 'This is nice. I haven't gotten this yet with my daughter.'"

    • Your account
      mike
      msa_enabled.png
       
      • Change language and content:Afrique francophone (français)América Latina (español)Argentina (español)Australia (English)België (Nederlands)Belgique (français)Brasil (português)Canada (English)Canada (français)Česká republika (čeština)Chile (español)Colombia (español)Danmark (Dansk)Deutschland (Deutsch)España (español)France (français)India (English)India (मराठी)India (हिंदी)India (বাংলা)India (తెలుగు)Indonesia (Bahasa Indonesia)International Edition (English)Ireland (English)Italia (italiano)Magyarország (magyar)Malaysia (English)México (español)Nederland (Nederlands)New Zealand (English)Norge (norsk, bokmål)Österreich (Deutsch)Perú (español)Philippines (English)Polska (polski)Portugal (Português)Schweiz (Deutsch)Singapore (English)South Africa (English)Suisse (français)Suomi (suomi)Sverige (svenska)Türkiye (Türkçe)United Arab Emirates (English)United Kingdom (English)United States (English)United States (español)Venezuela (español)Việt Nam (Tiếng Việt)Ελλάδα (ελληνικά)Россия (Pусский)ישראל (עברית)‏الإمارات العربية المتحدة (العربية‏)المملكة العربية السعودية (العربية‏)مصر (العربية‏)ไทย (ไทย)한국 (한국어)中华人民共和国 (简体中文)台灣 (繁體中文)日本 (日本語)香港特别行政區 (繁體中文)
      • Settings
      • Feedback
  • en
    • Choose a language
    • Canada (English) - en
    • Canada (français) - fr
 
NBC News

An ER doctor was charged with abusing his baby. But 15 experts say there's no proof.

 
 
Mike Hixenbaugh
14 hrs ago
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

  • a man wearing glasses and looking at the camera: Dr. John Cox and his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi.
  • a man holding his hand up to his mouth: Dr. John Cox and his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi.
  • a tall building in a city: Children's Wisconsin in Wauwatosa.
  • a group of people sitting around a living room: Dr. John Cox and his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi.
  • a man wearing a suit and tie: Dr. Lynn Sheets.
  • a man and a woman sitting on a bench: Dr. John Cox and his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi.
a man wearing glasses and looking at the camera: Dr. John Cox and his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi.
Previous SlideNext Slide
1/6 SLIDES © Darren Hauck
Dr. John Cox and his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi.
2/6 SLIDES© Darren Hauck
Dr. John Cox and his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi.
3/6 SLIDES© Kristyna Wentz-Graff
Children's Wisconsin in Wauwatosa.
4/6 SLIDES© Darren Hauck
Dr. John Cox and his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi.
5/6 SLIDES© Scott Paulus
Dr. Lynn Sheets.
6/6 SLIDES© Darren Hauck
Dr. John Cox and his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi.
6/6 SLIDES

 

MILWAUKEE — Dr. John Cox knew as soon as he heard the baby's cry that he had hurt his 1-month-old adopted daughter. He'd accidentally fallen asleep while cuddling the girl in bed early one morning last May, he said, and must have turned on top of her.

Cox, 39, a pediatric emergency room doctor at Children's Wisconsin hospital, sat up, panicked. His hands shook as he assessed the baby, he said, fearing that he'd smothered her. She wasn't in distress, but he said he could tell from the way she was moving her left arm that he might have broken her collarbone, a common injury in infants that typically heals on its own without medical treatment.

Cox called his wife, Dr. Sadie Dobrozsi, who was out of town with their two older children, and cried as he explained what had happened. Dobrozsi, a pediatric oncologist at the same hospital, said she told him to calm down and asked to video chat. The baby appeared fine to her, but to be safe, Dobrozsi suggested that Cox take her to see her pediatrician.

"That's what normal parents who aren't doctors would do," she told him.

What followed, according to more than 15 medical experts who later reviewed Cox's case, was a series of medical mistakes and misstatements by hospital staff members that has devastated Cox's family and derailed his career. A nurse practitioner on the hospital's child abuse team confused the baby's birthmarks for bruises, according to seven dermatologists who have reviewed the case. A child abuse pediatrician misinterpreted a crucial blood test, four hematologists later said. Then, two weeks after the incident, armed with those disputed medical reports, Child Protective Services took the child.

"In hindsight," Cox said in a recent interview, "taking her to our own hospital was the single most harmful decision that we made for our baby."

Children's Wisconsin officials declined interviews and did not respond to detailed written questions. In a joint statement with the Medical College of Wisconsin, which employs physicians who practice at the hospital, officials said they could not comment on a pending legal matter.

"Prevention of child abuse and neglect is core to Children's mission of caring for kids," the statement said. "We take seriously our responsibility to protect children and take action on their behalf."

Cox and Dobrozsi's story demonstrates the remarkable power granted to child abuse pediatricians, a small but growing subspecialty of doctors who work closely with child welfare agencies and whose work was the subject of an NBC News and Houston Chronicle investigation. Some of the doctors have at times overstated the certainty of their conclusions, the investigation found. Child welfare agencies and law enforcement officials often rely on their reports as the sole basis for removing children and filing criminal charges, sometimes in spite of contradictory opinions from other medical specialists.

Several Children's Wisconsin specialists were among those who reviewed Cox's case and wrote reports concluding that there was little reason to believe that he or anyone intentionally harmed his daughter, but that has not persuaded authorities in Wisconsin. Despite the growing stack of exculpatory medical reports and dozens of letters of support from fellow physicians who describe Cox as a caring and gentle father, the state placed the girl in foster care weeks after the incident, and now, eight months later — after another child abuse pediatrician reviewed the case on behalf of the state and agreed that the baby was abused — a prosecutor has filed felony abuse charges against Cox.

If convicted, he faces up to six years in prison.

Matthew Torbenson, the Milwaukee County deputy district attorney who brought the charges, declined to comment, citing a temporary gag order that was issued at his request on Thursday, just hours after an NBC News reporter contacted him requesting an interview.

Officials from the Wisconsin Department of Children and Families also declined to comment, citing a state law that prevents the agency from disclosing details about child welfare investigations. After receiving specific questions about the case from NBC News on Friday, the agency sent a reporter a cease and desist letter warning of possible criminal charges for publishing information contained in a child abuse investigation file.

This article is based on hours of interviews with Cox and Dobrozsi, conducted prior to the issuance of the gag order, as well as a review of records filed as part of the criminal case against Cox in Milwaukee County Circuit Court.

Share your story: Tell us your experience with doctors and the child welfare system

Dr. Eli Newberger, a former Harvard Medical School professor who established the child abuse program at Boston Children's Hospital 40 years ago, is among the physicians who've reviewed Cox's case and identified mistakes by hospital child abuse specialists.

"I am baffled by why there was such a rush to label and judge Dr. Cox as a child abuser," Newberger wrote.

Cox's ordeal has also opened a rift at Children's Wisconsin, where some treating physicians say they are so alarmed by what's happened to him that they now hesitate to refer injured children for evaluations by child abuse pediatricians, fearing that an abuse specialist might jump to the wrong conclusion and needlessly report parents to Child Protective Services.

A dozen members of the hospital's medical staff spoke to a reporter on the condition of anonymity, worried that they would be punished for discussing their concerns publicly.

Several emergency room doctors described an "out of control" child abuse team that is too quick to report minor injuries to authorities and that is too closely aligned with state child welfare investigators. Three of the doctors recalled being pressured by child abuse pediatricians to alter medical records, removing passages where they had initially reported having little or no concerns about abuse, though there's no evidence that happened in Cox's case.

"Essentially they've asked us to edit medical records to help the state prosecute parents," one doctor said. "It's completely inappropriate."

Five doctors told a reporter they're even afraid to bring their own children to their hospital after accidental injuries, fearing that a misdiagnosis or miscommunication might lead Child Protective Services to break their family apart.

"This is a disease in our hospital," one physician said. "The way John's case has been mishandled has opened all of our eyes to how big the problem is."

'This could spin out of control'

A month before the incident, Cox and Dobrozsi had rushed to the hospital, eager to meet their new baby girl.

The child's biological parents had chosen them a few weeks earlier from a list of adoptive families as the ones that they wanted to raise their soon-to-be-born daughter. Cox and Dobrozsi had previously adopted two boys, and they were excited to have their family grow again.

"From the moment that we sat in that room with them and they told us they chose us, she was our daughter and that was it," said Dobrozsi, comparing it to the way other mothers must feel when they learn they're pregnant. "All of the love you have for your child shows up in that moment."

They arrived minutes after the baby was born in early April and stayed with her overnight. They were there for her first bottle, her first diaper change, her first bath. They also gave her a name, but NBC News is not publishing it.

Dobrozsi's father videotaped the moment they brought the baby home to meet her brothers. Aiden, now 5, and Charlie — a 3-year-old who was born with spina bifida and who requires daily medical care from his parents — squirmed with excitement and begged to hold their new sister.

That first month together, Cox and Dobrozsi would each say later, was the happiest of their lives. "It felt like our family was complete," Cox said.

Dobrozsi hated to leave town on May 6, one month into her maternity leave, but she and her parents had been planning a trip to Washington, D.C., for months. They were taking the boys to an event hosted by the national Spina Bifida Association, to lobby Congress for improved health care funding. Dobrozsi said she had no concerns about leaving their newborn with her husband, a pediatric physician and experienced father.

On the evening of May 8, one of Cox's friends came over to watch the Milwaukee Bucks game. Cox held the baby the entire night, the friend recalled in an interview, doting on his new daughter. "It was almost annoying," he said. "Like, John, can you put her down so we can watch the game? You could tell he was genuinely in love."

The baby woke up in her bassinet at around 5 the next morning, as she did most days, Cox said. He picked up the baby and held her in bed until she fell back to sleep, he said. Then he made the mistake of getting himself more comfortable.

"We were chest to chest, cuddling," Cox said. "I distinctly remember thinking, 'This is nice. I haven't gotten this yet with my daughter.'"

Cox said he was disoriented when he awoke about an hour later to the sound of the baby's cry. His heart raced as he came to the realization that his body had shifted, Cox said, and that he was partially on top of her, his weight pressing the baby's shoulders together.

At Dr. Al Pomeranz's office later that morning, Cox recounted the same sequence of events that he'd described to his wife on the phone that morning, and he shared his concern that he'd broken her clavicle. The baby appeared to be moving both arms normally at that point, Pomeranz noted in her medical records, and initial X-rays came back negative for signs of a collarbone injury. But while examining the girl, Pomeranz spotted two tiny marks on the insides of her arms, and another on the middle of her back, according to the records.

Cox hadn't noticed them before then, he said. The marks on her arms could have come from when he picked the baby up abruptly that morning, when he initially thought he'd smothered her, Cox told the doctor, but he couldn't say for sure.

Pomeranz, who had helped train both Cox and Dobrozsi when they were medical residents, teared up, Cox recalled, and later, in a letter, he would describe what followed as the most difficult decision of his 38 years in medicine.

Doctors in Wisconsin, as in all states, are legally required to report to authorities when they have concerns that a child may have been abused. Pomeranz told Cox and later Dobrozsi that he didn't have that concern, but he wanted to make sure that he did the right thing, treating them no differently than he would anyone else. So he contacted the hospital's in-house child abuse specialists — known as the child advocacy team at Children's Wisconsin — to make them aware of the situation.

Cox tried to stay calm as Pomeranz explained his reasoning. As an ER physician, Cox knew the importance of flagging suspicious injuries. During his fellowship training, he'd worked on a research project that aimed to improve the early detection of child abuse in the emergency room. But over the years, he'd also grown uneasy with what he described as an aggressive approach by his colleagues in child advocacy anytime a child arrived with difficult-to-explain injuries, especially bruises.

"I knew in the back of my mind that this could spin out of control," Cox said. "But I don't think I realized just how bad it could get."

Later that day, a child abuse pediatrician, Dr. Hillary Petska, examined the baby, and she, too, noted three small bruises, according to records. Dobrozsi had arrived back in Milwaukee by then and was in the room as Petska looked the baby over. As part of the standard child abuse workup, Petska ordered a slew of additional tests, including full body X-rays and labs to screen for bleeding disorders that could lead to easy bruising.

The baby screamed as a hospital staff member pricked the bottom of her foot and squeezed it to draw a blood sample that afternoon, Dobrozsi recalled. Finally Dobrozsi was cleared to take her home.

That night, after Cox and Dobrozsi had gotten the kids to bed, two investigators with Child Protective Services knocked on their front door. They asked to see the baby.

Cox hadn't expected the state to get involved so quickly, he told them, given that the hospital hadn't even completed its evaluation. Dobrozsi got the baby out of bed and undressed her. The child welfare workers examined her arms and back, looking for the reported bruises.

"Well," Cox and Dobrozsi recalled one of the workers telling them before leaving that night, "those are underwhelming."

A focus on 'sentinel injuries'

Small bruises might seem insignificant, but to Dr. Lynn Sheets, they sometimes signal something more ominous. As the top child abuse pediatrician at Children's Wisconsin and the medical director of its child advocacy team, Sheets has gained national acclaim for her work studying the ways small, seemingly trivial injuries can foreshadow serious abuse.

Sheets has preached the same message for years: If doctors can better recognize early warning signs of abuse, they might be able to save lives. Her 2013 research into these "sentinel injuries" — a term she coined and popularized — found that nearly a third of seriously abused children had previously suffered minor injuries, such as bruises.

In 2019, the research became the inspiration for federal legislation now working its way through Congress. The bill would provide funding to perform exhaustive medical examinations, including full-body X-rays and CT scans, on infants who come to hospitals with bruises and other common injuries.

"One of the things we realized is, if you just call it a bruise, everyone has bruises," Sheets told The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel last year, after the bill was introduced. "Everyone thinks about it as a minor injury, including the doctors, including child welfare. So we needed to change the way people are thinking about these minor injuries in young infants."

But some doctors, defense lawyers and parental rights advocates have criticized the effort to redefine minor injuries as beacons of future danger. They warn that it opens the door for increased prosecutions of innocent families, especially people of color, who are more likely to be flagged as abuse suspects, and parents of children with rare disorders that predispose them to bruising.

In interviews, several emergency room doctors at Children's Wisconsin said they've seen firsthand the unintended consequences of the philosophy.

"I agree that children are abused and that we need to protect them," one physician said. "But it seems there's a total disregard for the harm done to the child and family when there's a complete medical workup done and charges brought when it's not really abuse."

Several Children's Wisconsin physicians said they had concerns about the work of child advocacy specialists prior to Cox's ordeal, but after watching the handling of his case, they are seeing many of the team's practices in a new light.

For example, several staff members told a reporter that child abuse pediatricians at the hospital routinely review medical records of children who've been admitted to the ER — even when no doctor has asked for their opinion — and then weigh in on whether Child Protective Services should be called. Sometimes child abuse specialists send notes scolding ER physicians for failing to flag children, even though those physicians did not believe the child had been abused, several doctors said.

In at least three instances, according to interviews and two sets of internal messages reviewed by a reporter, some child abuse pediatricians have gone so far as to ask treating physicians to edit a child's medical records, deleting or amending passages in which they had initially noted little concern for abuse.

In one such case, Sheets suggested amending a medical record because she was concerned that, without language noting a concern for abuse from the initial treating physician, Child Protective Services would stop investigating, according to messages between doctors.

Sheets did not respond to an email from a reporter, and hospital officials did not respond to detailed written questions about internal concerns raised by members of the medical staff.

Diane Redleaf, a family law attorney in Illinois who wrote a paper on the ethics of expert physician testimony in child abuse cases, said the practice of editing medical records to assist with state child welfare investigations is "unethical" and "shocking."

"Doctors are not supposed to be advocates for a result, especially a legal result; doctors are supposed to be providing medical information," Redleaf said.

Keith Findley, a professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School who co-founded the Wisconsin Innocence Project, said that when physicians work in concert to shape the message sent to investigators, "it undermines the legal system's access to full truth."

"What they're really doing is shaping the evidentiary record, and in fact deliberately hiding from the legal system inconsistent opinions that might be useful to the legal fact finders who are working to determine what actually happened," Findley said. "It's deeply problematic."

Sheets and her team have shaped more than just hospital practices; her vigilance for seemingly minor injuries has also permeated the child welfare and criminal justice systems in Milwaukee.

After Child Protective Services workers initially visited Cox and Dobrozsi at their home, one of them noted in her written report that the baby's bruises were "very small" and "unremarkable," according to a motion filed by Cox's lawyer in Milwaukee County Circuit Court arguing that the state lacked enough evidence to bring charges. But, due to a concern about "sentinel injuries," Cox and Dobrozsi later learned, the worker's Child Protective Services supervisors determined that additional action needed to be taken.

The next morning, Cox received a call from a different case worker, Jessica Barber, who explained that "higher-ups" at Child Protective Services and the hospital had decided that the baby needed to immediately undergo an additional evaluation with another child abuse specialist, Cox said. And this time, she told Cox, neither he nor his wife could attend. Cox was at work and relayed the message to his wife.

An agency spokesman declined a reporter's request to interview Child Protective Services staffers who worked on Cox's case.

Barber showed up at their home 20 minutes later. Dobrozsi pleaded with her: "Why can't I come? I don't understand why this is happening."

Barber told her that it was "normal procedure" for parents to be blocked from attending appointments with child abuse specialists, Dobrozsi recalled. Later, she said Barber gave a different explanation: They weren't allowed to attend, because as doctors, they would be in a position to ask hard questions and challenge the assessment.

As a pediatric oncologist, that didn't sound right to Dobrozsi. One of the most important

steps in making an accurate diagnosis is talking to patients or their parents. How could someone assess the credibility of Cox's story if they didn't bother to hear it?

Barber asked Dobrozsi if she had her consent to take the baby.

"It sounds like I don't have a choice," Dobrozsi remembered saying.

She cried as Barber loaded the girl into her car and drove away.

'You're taking my child'

Nearly two hours later, Barber called Dobrozsi and told her she could come meet her at the hospital. As she sat with the caseworker that afternoon, awaiting additional test results, a police officer entered the room and explained that someone at the hospital had reported a baby with unexplained injuries.

Dobrozsi was stunned. She said she turned to Barber and demanded to know what had happened during the medical examination that morning.

It turns out, a nurse practitioner on the hospital's child abuse team, Rita Ventura, had examined the baby and concluded that her body was covered in more than a half dozen bruises, including along the backs of her arms.

"Those are birthmarks!" Dobrozsi remembers telling Barber. Plus, she said, none of the doctors who'd examined the baby a day earlier had noticed any other bruises.

Det. James Donovan spent hours questioning both Dobrozsi and Cox separately at the hospital that Friday afternoon, they recalled in an interview. He also reviewed the medical findings and examined the baby. Afterward, he asked to speak privately with one of the Child Protective Services caseworkers.

Donovan told the worker "he wasn't sure why they were even out there as he did not see anything criminal," the worker wrote in her notes, according to a motion filed as part of the criminal case.

A spokesman for the Wauwatosa Police Department declined a request to interview Donovan, citing a department policy of not commenting on pending criminal matters.

Despite the officer's initial reservations, Cox and Dobrozsi entered into a safety agreement with Child Protective Services that evening. While child welfare workers and police continued their investigations, Dobrozsi's parents would move in with them and supervise them at all times when they were with their children.

If they just followed the rules and continued to tell the truth, Cox and Dobrozsi told themselves, everything would be OK.

Two days later, at the urging of Pomeranz, their pediatrician, they took the baby to see a pediatric dermatologist at Children's Wisconsin, Dr. Yvonne Chiu, for a second opinion.

Chiu examined the girl and reviewed photos taken during her initial doctor's visit with Pomeranz on the morning of the incident. Chiu, who as a dermatologist is an expert in differentiating bruises from other skin marks, concluded that the baby had suffered only the three small bruises Pomeranz had originally noticed, which had mostly resolved over the weekend. The other marks on her body were birthmarks or other benign lesions that are common in newborns, Chiu wrote.

Chiu believed that the two arm bruises could have been the result of the way Cox picked the baby up when he was panicked. And the bruise on the baby's back appeared to match Cox's wedding band and was located in the spot where he normally patted her back while burping her, according to Chiu's report.

Like Pomeranz, Chiu had no concerns that the girl had been abused. She shared her findings with Child Protective Services and police. Later, six other dermatologists reviewed the medical records and agreed that Ventura had been mistaken when she reported "widespread contusions."

But when Cox and Dobrozsi later filed a grievance with Children's Wisconsin administrators over Ventura's finding, child advocacy team leaders responded that they were better equipped than dermatologists in these matters: "Differentiating accidental from inflicted injuries is the primary focus of child abuse medical professionals and is not usually a primary focus of dermatologists," they wrote.

Kate Judson, a lawyer in Madison and executive director of the Center for Integrity in Forensic Sciences, reviewed the case at NBC News' request and said it follows a familiar pattern that she's observed over the years. Child abuse specialists, she said, sometimes overstate their expertise while minimizing the expertise of other subspecialists.

"What's striking to me is that you have these leaps in logic that are unsupported," Judson said. "So you have a nurse practitioner here saying, 'Well, I can determine with accuracy and certainty that this bruise was intentionally inflicted.' And then you have a dermatologist, who is unquestionably an expert in the examination of skin lesions, who's saying, 'Well, this isn't even a bruise.'"

Authorities in Milwaukee took Ventura's word for it.

On May 24, two weeks after the initial incident, Child Protective Services workers returned to Cox and Dobrozsi's home. They had come to take the baby, and this time they wouldn't be bringing her back.

Cox and Dobrozsi said they pleaded with the caseworker, Amy Scherbarth, the same one who they said weeks earlier had described the babies injuries as "underwhelming." What about the dermatologist's report? Shouldn't her opinion carry more weight than a nurse practitioner who never heard Cox's account of what happened or talked to anyone who'd cared for the baby?

Why couldn't Dobrozsi's parents continue to supervise them? What had changed?

Scherbarth said she understood the dispute over whether some of the baby's birthmarks had been confused for bruises, Dobrozsi recalled, but the worker said nobody could explain the bruise on the bottom of the baby's foot.

What bruise? Dobrozsi demanded. There was never a bruise on her foot.

"You're taking my child from me and you can't answer any of my questions," Dobrozsi remembered saying.

"And then she looked me in the eye and said, 'You're not her mother.'"

Dobrozsi's parents and Cox were all present and attested to her description of the exchange.

Afterward, Dobrozsi asked her mom to shove some diapers and formula into a bag. Dobrozsi grabbed the baby's stuffed unicorn and a pacifier. Then she and Cox sat on the floor with her and took turns holding her as they sobbed.

"We told her that we loved her," Dobrozsi said, "and that we would do everything we could for the rest of our lives to try to get her to come home."

A few minutes later, she was gone.

A series of mistakes

Night after night, for weeks afterward, Dobrozsi would wake up in a panic, terrified that her children were in danger. She would get out of bed to check on each of the boys, placing her hand on them as they slept.

Then she would go to the baby's room and stand over her empty crib, before curling up on the nursery floor and crying herself to sleep.

Because the adoption had not yet been finalized, Cox and Dobrozsi were not granted the same legal rights as other parents. They could not visit the baby, and the state did not allow her to stay with family members.

During the day, between their busy work schedules and taking care of their boys, Cox and Dobrozsi tried to fight the allegations. They hired a lawyer and began digging through medical records.

Dobrozsi said she soon identified a series of mistakes and misstatements by Ventura, the nurse practitioner who'd reported numerous bruises to authorities, and Petska, the child abuse pediatrician who'd initially seen the baby a day earlier.

Neither Ventura or Petska responded to messages seeking comment.

They both inaccurately described Cox's account of what happened — not surprising, Dobrozsi said, considering that neither of them ever spoke with him in person.

They both also wrongly reported that the baby had suffered an earlier bruise on her face, twisting an account provided by Dobrozsi, who at one point mentioned noticing a mark on the girl's face weeks earlier that lasted just a few hours, after she'd slept on a pacifier clip. Dobrozsi said she never described the earlier mark as a bruise, but highlighted it as evidence that the baby's skin was sensitive.

And most notably, both Petska and Ventura had incorrectly reported that the results of the baby's initial lab tests were negative for a bleeding disorder that could cause easy bruising. Dobrozsi, who as a pediatric hematologist oncologist is an expert in assessing children for bleeding disorders, was outraged when she read the test results.

The labs indicated a delay in how quickly the baby's blood formed clots, which suggested a possible bleeding disorder and should have resulted in a referral for more extensive testing, according to four hematologists, including the medical director of the Comprehensive Center for Bleeding Disorders at Children's Wisconsin, who have since reviewed the records.

Instead, Petska reported to authorities that the blood tests were normal. And Ventura wrote, "Results available at this time indicate no concern for a clinically significant bleeding disorder."

Cox and Dobrozsi have shared the expert hematology reports with Child Protective Services, the county prosecutor and hospital administrators, but as far as they know, no follow up testing has been completed.

The girl did undergo additional X-rays in the weeks after Child Protective Services took her, and one of the scans seemed to bolster Cox's case. It showed a healing collarbone fracture, not only confirming the initial concern that prompted Cox to take the baby to the doctor, but according to four orthopedic surgeons who have since reviewed the medical records, validating the account he gave to authorities.

But child abuse specialists and state authorities saw it differently, according to documents filed as part of the criminal case. They concluded that the broken collarbone was further evidence of abuse, seeming to contradict medical literature on the subject. Numerous publishedstudies say collarbone fractures are common in infants and are not particularly concerning for abuse.

"Honestly," wrote Dr. Matthew Wichman, one of the orthopedic surgeons who reviewed the medical records, "this all seems quite preposterous."

In response to complaints filed last year by Cox and Dobrozsi over the hospital's handling of their case, Dr. Michael Gutzeit, chief medical officer at Children's Wisconsin, defended the work of the hospital's child abuse specialists.

"In this rapidly unfolding situation, a good faith effort was made to protect the child, individuals involved in the process and the rights of those involved," Gutzeit said in the Aug. 1 letter. "It is my opinion that all involved in the case have attempted to provide compassionate, competent care focussing on the best interests of [the child]."

The most unsettling error wasn't revealed until November, five months after the state had taken the baby. That's when Child Protective Services finally provided Cox and Dobrozsi with photos that Ventura took during her examination, which inexplicably had been stored outside of the child's medical records and shared only with investigators.

Dobrozsi and their lawyer scrolled through the images on his computer. Her heart sank when they reached the picture of the bottom of the baby's foot.

The child welfare worker had been right; there was a bruise on the baby's heel. And once Dobrozsi saw it, she knew immediately how it had gotten there.

Ventura initially had a hunch, telling Child Protective Services that the bruise could have been the result of a heel prick, according to a motion filed by Cox's lawyer in his criminal case. But Ventura said that was an unlikely explanation since it had been a month since the baby had blood drawn for her newborn screening, according to the motion.

If Dobrozsi had been allowed to attend the appointment, she could have helped Ventura solve the mystery. She'd been in the room, just a day earlier, when a hospital worker pricked the baby's foot to collect a blood sample ordered by Petska — the same lab work that pointed to a potential bleeding disorder, but that doctors failed to read correctly.

Dobrozsi cried, angry at herself for not making the connection sooner.

The injury that a Child Protective Services worker cited as the primary basis for taking her baby had been inflicted, not by Cox, but by staff at Children's Wisconsin.

'It has to end'

In mid-January, Cox was notified that — despite the outside medical opinions, despite the repeated mistakes by medical staff, despite the fact that investigators never even interviewed the friend who'd been with him just hours before the incident — the county was preparing to file criminal charges.

Cox was booked at the county jail on Thursday and released.

Torbenson, the deputy district attorney who filed charges, had been given all of the reports from outside medical experts, but he did not acknowledge them in the criminal complaint.

Instead the prosecutor noted the 2013 study by Sheets on the dangers of overlooking sentinel injuries and cited the findings of her child abuse team, including the unsubstantiated claim that the baby previously suffered a bruise on her face that her parents could not explain.

"The previous bruise as well as the bruises documented on May 9, 2019, constitute multiple sentinel injuries," Torbenson wrote.

The prosecutor also cited a report by Dr. Nancy Harper, a child abuse pediatrician in Minnesota who was hired by Child Protective Services to review the case and who delivered her conclusions with sweeping certainty.

"In summary, there is no explanation for [the baby's] injuries other than trauma," Harper wrote, according to the criminal complaint. "This constellation of injuries, including cutaneous trauma and a clavicle fracture, is clinically diagnostic of child physical abuse."

Harper did not respond to an email seeking comment.

Cox and Dobrozsi plan to fight the charges, and eventually, they want to use their experience to advocate for other families accused of abuse based on what they believe is bad medicine.

"What has and is happening is not medicine," Dobrozsi wrote to a reporter, after helping Cox clean out his office prior to his resignation from the hospital. "It is ego and arrogance and power. And it has to end."

They hope their story might one day spark changes to ensure no one else has to endure what they have. At the least, they hope leaders at Children's Wisconsin listen to the concerns of their emergency room doctors and add safeguards to protect innocent parents.

But for now, they're struggling just to explain the situation to their children. Charlie, the younger one, only remembers his sister through photos and stories, but Aiden is troubled by her disappearance.

"Will someone come to take me, too?" he asks sometimes. At one point, he filled a backpack with his favorite toys and stashed it away in the closet — just in case.

Unable to answer his question with certainty, fearing that Child Protective Services might still come back for their boys, Cox and Dobrozsi instead make him the same promise they made to his sister.

They would never stop fighting to bring him home.

 

 

 

Way too long didn't read?

An E/R doctor gets his kid taken away for alleged abuse. His wife is also a doctor. Mistakes in paperwork and diagnosis leads the state to seize the baby, despite 15 professionals saying the state got it wrong.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read the whole thing. (although it needs editing)

 

Paradoxically shocking, yet unsurprising. (knowing self important bureaucrats as I do)

 

I honestly wish it were in my power to fire the Nurse practitioner, the Child Abuse Pediatrician and the District Attorney.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just want to wish CDC a Happy Palindrome Day!:towel:

 

Today is 02/02/2020 the first Palindrome Day in almost a Millennium. (November 11th, 1111, or 11/11/1111)

 

We won't have to wait quite so long for the next one.....just over a century. (December 12th, 2121, or 12/12/2121)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

could be another false abuse  accusation uncovered.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/celebrity/supernumberjusticeforjohnnydepp-trends-after-amber-heard-admits-to-hitting-actor-in-audio-clip/ar-BBZAPIM?ocid=spartandhp

 

After a leaked audio recording appears to reveal Amber Heard admitting to starting physical fights with her ex-husband Johnny Depp, the hashtag #JusticeForJohnnyDepp trended on Twitter as fans expressed support for the actor.

The couple have accused each other of domestic violence in legal documents after Depp filed a $50 million lawsuit, saying Heard defamed him after the Aquaman star published an op-ed in The Washington Post.

Although Heard, 33, didn't mention 56-year-old Depp by name, the actor claimed it was clear she was talking about him. The lawsuit said Depp had suffered financial losses and his career has suffered as a result of the accusations, including being dropped from the Pirates of the Caribbean film franchise, the Associated Press reported.

Since then, Heard has provided evidence to support her allegations of abuse in court filings, including photos of her with bruises on her face and scars on her arms. Depp has denied the abuse and claimed it was Heard who was abusive toward him during their marriage.

Now an alleged audio recording obtained by the Daily Mail that was recorded during a conversation the pair had to talk through their marriage problems in 2015 appears to lend credence to Depp's version of events. (Hear the audio here).

In the clip the couple are heard discussing numerous arguments and Heard admits to "hitting" Depp and pelting him with pots and pans during one violent altercation.

"It's not true. It's not true. I'm not the one who throws pots and whatever the f***ing else at me," Depp replied after Heard claimed he took her for granted.

Later, Heard denied punching Depp but conceded she had hit him.

"I'm sorry that I didn't, uh, uh, hit you across the face in a proper slap, but I was hitting you, it was not punching you. Babe, you're not punched," she said.

"I don't know what the motion of my actual hand was, but you're fine, I did not hurt you, I

Now an alleged audio recording obtained by the Daily Mail that was recorded during a conversation the pair had to talk through their marriage problems in 2015 appears to lend credence to Depp's version of events. (Hear the audio here).

In the clip the couple are heard discussing numerous arguments and Heard admits to "hitting" Depp and pelting him with pots and pans during one violent altercation.

"It's not true. It's not true. I'm not the one who throws pots and whatever the f***ing else at me," Depp replied after Heard claimed he took her for granted.

Later, Heard denied punching Depp but conceded she had hit him.

"I'm sorry that I didn't, uh, uh, hit you across the face in a proper slap, but I was hitting you, it was not punching you. Babe, you're not punched," she said.

"I don't know what the motion of my actual hand was, but you're fine, I did not hurt you, I

did not punch you, I was hitting you."

The publication of the taped conversation prompted many to flood Twitter in support of Depp, with hundreds of thousands of supporters using the hashtag #JusticeForJohnnyDepp.

TV producer Jesse Zook Mann wrote, "I have been in recovery circles of many kinds and stories of men receiving abuse are far too common. Johnny Depp is sadly not an isolated case. No matter your gender you deserve to be safe from abuse be it emotional or physical."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.