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What we need to become Contenders


brian42

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1 minute ago, mikeyman109 said:

while i share your excitement at this players potential I am being cautiously optimistic as I think he will play on the team this year but need to adjust a bit to the NHL game, the size and speed of the opposition and NHL caliber goal tending. If he can contribute 50 points this season  i consider that a successful rookie campaign, anything over that is gravy

Yeh that would be a decent year. But Elias is no normal draft pick. Like I said expect 70 points from him. He is that good. Most of Elias's goals would beat NHL defenders his shot is that good.

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3 minutes ago, mikeyman109 said:

We need a whole team to be a contender. Every player has to be good at their role. You need scorers to score checkers to check defense that play defense as well as help the forwards out, forwards that help the D out. Goalies that can make a stop when you need it. But no matter what 5 players that are brand new to the league are not going to make us contenders, we will struggle as they develop again this year and draft high again next draft. But all the whining and complaining here isnt going to change the fact we need to be patience and draft another good prospect next year. Saying Benning should trade Gagner or Eriksson at this point is moot. We do not know if anyone has had nay interest in these players so we are stuck with their contracts. As their contracts end we will see more of the players we have drafted and hopefully they are ready to step in. I believe this is at least 3-4 years away from being a contending team.

I just find it hard to believe that this is an exact science as teams such as Vegas with no stars on their roster makes it the finals when teams with well established stars don't . Also, with a cap system players such as Tavares are allowed to walk with no compensation to the team that drafted him. 

Also teams with established stars are forced to move out their young stars(Anisimov) as they have no cap space to keep them.

I could agree with your thought process pre-cap era, but because this system is a sort of an "equalizer", teams are no longer totally dominant and they are more on the same playing field. So teams can usually contend with each other until they run into injuries, their goalie goes into a slump, or a combination of any kind of adversity that happens in a season.

Don't get me wrong, there are some teams who are the upper echelon such as a Tampa Bay but as we have seen that still gives you no guarantee to make it to the finals.

So as many have said before, there needs to be a balance and as you have said, it takes an entire team to win. This cannot be completely from drafted players who are magically all going to be their best in a certain timeframe all at the same time.

I have said before that I like how JB and TL are building this team in that they are trying to assemble the best team possible every year and that includes trades, FA's and draft picks. Trying to improve every year and filling in holes when needed. As they have just did with the new FA's.

We have been held down by past NTC's and I think we are coming to the end of these anchors. I really think we are going to see great improvements with this team here on out and will surprise the critics who think they are Eons away from being competitive again.

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1 hour ago, Patrick Jane said:

Really:

 

Stop making terrible signings: Bottom 6 players for 3 mill or more a year and 3-4 year term is hurting us

Realistic Trade Value of some players:

 

Sutter- 2nd round pick - but probably 3rd 

Gudbranson- 5th or 6th round pick 

Erikksson- Untradeable- no one wants him 

Sam Ganger- 3rd or 4th round pick

Beagle- 3rd or 4th round pick

Roussel- 3rd to 4th round pick

Baer- 3rd round pick

 

Like Sutter at 4.5 mill, Roussel at 3 mill, gudbranson 4 million.....if I'm Boeser I would be asking for 10 million at least. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

wow, you really know you're hockey. Amazing:rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, cory40 said:

Yeh that would be a decent year. But Elias is no normal draft pick. Like I said expect 70 points from him. He is that good. Most of Elias's goals would beat NHL defenders his shot is that good.

I agree his shot is good, but he will have to learn to deal with bigger men that can skate and play the game at a faster pace than before.  One thing the bigger ice surface allows is time, time to make passes, time to make decisions etc. I know the kid will get it but the difference will take time to develop.

The other big issue will be travel with time zones to deal with and 80 plus games a year we will see how he holds up. I hope he surprises me.

 

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2 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I just find it hard to believe that this is an exact science as teams such as Vegas with no stars on their roster makes it the finals when teams with well established stars don't . Also, with a cap system players such as Tavares are allowed to walk with no compensation to the team that drafted him. 

Also teams with established stars are forced to move out their young stars(Anisimov) as they have no cap space to keep them.

I could agree with your thought process pre-cap era, but because this system is a sort of an "equalizer", teams are no longer totally dominant and they are more on the same playing field. So teams can usually contend with each other until they run into injuries, their goalie goes into a slump, or a combination of any kind of adversity that happens in a season.

Don't get me wrong, there are some teams who are the upper echelon such as a Tampa Bay but as we have seen that still gives you no guarantee to make it to the finals.

So as many have said before, there needs to be a balance and as you have said, it takes an entire team to win. This cannot be completely from drafted players who are magically all going to be their best in a certain timeframe all at the same time.

I have said before that I like how JB and TL are building this team in that they are trying to assemble the best team possible every year and that includes trades, FA's and draft picks. Trying to improve every year and filling in holes when needed. As they have just did with the new FA's.

We have been held down by past NTC's and I think we are coming to the end of these anchors. I really think we are going to see great improvements with this team here on out and will surprise the critics who think they are Eons away from being competitive again.

I agree with you , the teams that can put together a run don't necessarily have a top star to push them over the top. Vegas was a team built to play a certain way and it almost pulled off the miracle. Balance is important. We will need a good mix of top end talent and some that are there for checking ability. How we get there is not an exact science. we will have to be patient and see what the Drafted kids turn into.

 

Hughes may be a start. Petterson may be a star, they may be average but we wont be able to just count on two players to change the fortunes of this team.

 

Its going to take more good draft picks and more development to become competitors for the cup.Having competition at each position is vital.

 

Right now our biggest weakness appears to be on D, we may have a fix in two draftees, but that remains to be seen.

 

Goaltending is going to be a huge part of turning this around also.Demko may be a good one or Dipietro.

 

With the salary cap era you need to draft well to become elite. We have started out well with Elias and Quinn. Lets hope they become everything we expect.

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38 minutes ago, cory40 said:

Elias played 80 games last year and dominated in the WC. Something McDavid did not do this summer.

He played 44 in the SHL and 7 in the WJC and 5 in the WC.  I don’t know where your 80 games came from.

 

In the WC he had 3 points in 5 games, McDavid had 17 in 10.  McDavid also played 92 against NHL’ers and had 125 points.  

 

Go ahead and compare Pettersson to McDavid all you want, but you are looking like a homer more and more each post.   Don’t get me wrong I think Pettersson is going to be a very good player, probably our best prospect (even compared to Horvat and Boeser) but I would not be putting him in the same category as McDavid whom will likely go down as a top 10 player if not top 5 ever to play hockey.

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7 minutes ago, cory40 said:

Yeh that would be a decent year. But Elias is no normal draft pick. Like I said expect 70 points from him. He is that good. Most of Elias's goals would beat NHL defenders his shot is that good.

70 points?? Elias is good for at least 225 points easy. He’ll break Gretzky and Lemieux records as a rookie easy peasy lemon squeezy. His shot is a super laser pew pew. He actually causes a sonic boom when he skates. I seen him beat a 440 super charger going backwards on a lake. The crazy part was that the lake wasn’t even frozen ! 

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32 minutes ago, mpt said:

He played 44 in the SHL and 7 in the WJC and 5 in the WC.  I don’t know where your 80 games came from.

 

In the WC he had 3 points in 5 games, McDavid had 17 in 10.  McDavid also played 92 against NHL’ers and had 125 points.  

 

Go ahead and compare Pettersson to McDavid all you want, but you are looking like a homer more and more each post.   Don’t get me wrong I think Pettersson is going to be a very good player, probably our best prospect (even compared to Horvat and Boeser) but I would not be putting him in the same category as McDavid whom will likely go down as a top 10 player if not top 5 ever to play hockey.

YEH a homer. Only Canadian players can be touted as generational before they play a game. This homer not only expects Elias to be a generational player and will be disappointed if he doesn't get more points than McDavid because I don't see McDavid as heads and shoulders above the rest. I see McDavid as in a race with two or three other players for the league lead. And expect Elias to be in that race only because Elias does things no other players can duplicate.

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34 minutes ago, Seven pounds soft said:

70 points?? Elias is good for at least 225 points easy. He’ll break Gretzky and Lemieux records as a rookie easy peasy lemon squeezy. His shot is a super laser pew pew. He actually causes a sonic boom when he skates. I seen him beat a 440 super charger going backwards on a lake. The crazy part was that the lake wasn’t even frozen ! 

Yeh that's what I said. If you havn't looked at the NHL leader board it can be had. that's all. The NHL has not had a clear cut number one since Wayne and Mario. I don't remember Wayne and Mario missing the play-off? That's because they got points when the games mattered. McDavid is in a losing culture and may get 120 points and still miss the play-offs.  

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22 minutes ago, cory40 said:

Yeh that's what I said. If you havn't looked at the NHL leader board it can be had. that's all. The NHL has not had a clear cut number one since Wayne and Mario. I don't remember Wayne and Mario missing the play-off? That's because they got points when the games mattered. McDavid is in a losing culture and may get 120 points and still miss the play-offs.  

I’d easily put Crosby in that category.

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25 minutes ago, cory40 said:

Yeh that's what I said. If you havn't looked at the NHL leader board it can be had. that's all. The NHL has not had a clear cut number one since Wayne and Mario. I don't remember Wayne and Mario missing the play-off? That's because they got points when the games mattered. McDavid is in a losing culture and may get 120 points and still miss the play-offs.  

I get what you mean Cory. I seen the Sedin Twins in the same category and I know not many will agree. You really need that killer instinct, I don't care to look at the refs for help, kind of character. You get knocked down and you get right back up to score a goal. You are down by a goal and its game 7 of the SC final, you find a way to score no matter what. I don't see McDavid as that kind of player, I have seen him on numerous occasions get all pouty because things aren't going his way. I will take our Bo and Boeser over that anyday.

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Traditionally it takes a well rounded team with stars throughout the line-up to win a cup.  

 

Two elite centers helps with weaker defenders (PIT)

 

Possesion works or at least did for the Kings but Quick was otherworldly in one run and great in the second run.

 

Once a blue moon goaltending can win it all (93 MTL)

 

Elite special teams helps a lot

 

Trucelence and skill has worked.

 

Now the name of the game is speed, speed, speed!!  Don't know how long that's going to stick, WSH was a big heavy team, with two great lines/centers with one of the best  goal scorers and complete players all-time.   

 

With parity thing tend to be all over the place more (possession went out the window with PIT a consecutive cups based on speed and skill)...

 

Maybe a healthy team and some luck is what we need the most, that and of course our prospects to work out.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Traditionally it takes a well rounded team with stars throughout the line-up to win a cup.  

 

Two elite centers helps with weaker defenders (PIT)

 

Possesion works or at least did for the Kings but Quick was otherworldly in one run and great in the second run.

 

Once a blue moon goaltending can win it all (93 MTL)

 

Elite special teams helps a lot

 

Trucelence and skill has worked.

 

Now the name of the game is speed, speed, speed!!  Don't know how long that's going to stick, WSH was a big heavy team, with two great lines/centers with one of the best  goal scorers and complete players all-time.   

 

With parity thing tend to be all over the place more (possession went out the window with PIT a consecutive cups based on speed and skill)...

 

Maybe a healthy team and some luck is what we need the most, that and of course our prospects to work out.

 

 

Play-offs can be a funny thing, And the favorite teams in march sometimes are golfing 5 or 6 games in.  In 82 when the Canucks went to the finals the Kings upset the young Oilers. Teams have been up and poised to move on but lack the killer instincs and end up losing series they should have won. Sometimes teams match up well against big teams but don't match up well against fast teams. And sometimes players get scared of putting out what it takes to win when they come close and never get past that final game. I've been watching hockey since april 1982 and every year team s are picked to do well and fail. And teams that have no business doing well succeed. In todays day and age any of the above can and does happen. If Edmonton gets into the play-offs they could win it all. that being said they could be drafting top 10 in the league. I have felt as good as the Sedin twins we're they we're anchors 5 on 5 and because they could not be split up they seldom gave a boost to the second line. That being said if they got 70 points each it didn't always translate to two 70 point scorers on a team. malkin could go out and get 40 points on the second line or the second power play. And if they loaded up they could put Malkin and Crosby together. That allows a coach to really coach. How many times have the Sedins been split up to boost the depth? How many of their points involved both of them. They won't be as hard to replace as people think.. On too the new Canucks who seem to be putting together a lot of young pieces that could be something very special. Something Edmonton has been trying to re-create since their glory days. This is something that seems to come together with-out a lot of planning, Sometimes players come together with pure luck and draft Gaffs etc. Canucks getting Elias was one of them. Hughes could be another.   

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2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Traditionally it takes a well rounded team with stars throughout the line-up to win a cup.  

 

Two elite centers helps with weaker defenders (PIT)

 

Possesion works or at least did for the Kings but Quick was otherworldly in one run and great in the second run.

 

Once a blue moon goaltending can win it all (93 MTL)

 

Elite special teams helps a lot

 

Trucelence and skill has worked.

 

Now the name of the game is speed, speed, speed!!  Don't know how long that's going to stick, WSH was a big heavy team, with two great lines/centers with one of the best  goal scorers and complete players all-time.   

 

With parity thing tend to be all over the place more (possession went out the window with PIT a consecutive cups based on speed and skill)...

 

Maybe a healthy team and some luck is what we need the most, that and of course our prospects to work out.

 

 

With teams winning the Cup and then bowing out the next year(LA) and teams such as Vegas getting to the final without any years and years of player development tells me there is no magic formula to success. Cap compliance ensures teams cannot take all of the best players in the league and have a cake walk to the finals.

Yes speed is the name of the game nowadays but if your smaller guys are getting laid out as they go through the neutral zone or are trying to retrieve the puck in the corners then they are going to slow down and flinch when the big guys are on the ice(Bfuglin). 

Its all about balance and being able to adjust to whatever type of team you are playing. Star players need to be able to withstand the abuse they are going to encounter and need to over come those obstacles to remain competitive.

I don't think you can over state the importance of character on a team and the willingness to win at all costs no matter if you are on the PK, the PP, the goalie, the sniper or WHY.

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55 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

With teams winning the Cup and then bowing out the next year(LA) and teams such as Vegas getting to the final without any years and years of player development tells me there is no magic formula to success. Cap compliance ensures teams cannot take all of the best players in the league and have a cake walk to the finals.

Yes speed is the name of the game nowadays but if your smaller guys are getting laid out as they go through the neutral zone or are trying to retrieve the puck in the corners then they are going to slow down and flinch when the big guys are on the ice(Bfuglin). 

Its all about balance and being able to adjust to whatever type of team you are playing. Star players need to be able to withstand the abuse they are going to encounter and need to over come those obstacles to remain competitive.

I don't think you can over state the importance of character on a team and the willingness to win at all costs no matter if you are on the PK, the PP, the goalie, the sniper or WHY.

I wanted Bouchard, yes he skates with cement in shoes compared to Hughes but was ranked the same as Woo  in that category so wasn't slow either, average NHL front speed, excellent backwards skating.  That's because I'm not sold on speed as the only thing a team needs to win cups.  Character certainly matters, as does experience, failure (the best teacher) and skill throughout the lineup particularly at center and goaltending.  Have a true top pairing too.  Pre-cap it took two excellent scoring lines which even the trap king NJ teams had, one cup they were like third in offense overall, elite or very good goaltending and a elite to very good top four, plus very good supporting players.  Detroits fourth line (and NJ) was exceptional for the time and helped them win.  Vegas if anything showed the league that players that aren't given the chance normally are closer to the same level to the stars then previously thought (give a very good third liner some first unit PP time and you get, well Weiss from Florida a while back, sixty plus points, way to go Perron!) and you can build a contender without a top heavy team.   GMS took notice of that definitely.   I agree with the post on top of yours too, since 82 each year some teams are named as Cup probables, and most of them are wrong.  I'm sure WSH won't repeat, PIT won't be called the new modern day dynasty and win it again, someone else entirely will.   Maybe Dallas.  Maybe TO (barf).  Likely TB.  Vegas won't make the playoffs but close to a wild card spot?

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7 hours ago, mpt said:

I agree, the additions so far this offseason has been good.  I hope the Beagle contract doesn’t bite us in the butt 2-4 years from now

this... basically worst case scenario is just some minor cap issue that probably wont affect us much in the last couple years of beagles contract. Some people so worked up about these contracts lol they are good signings in my opinion need guys like this 

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